Micropigmentation/Tattoo and Rogaine

[scar5]

Just read on another forum that foam helps to fade the pigments and give off the blue/green hue faster. What do u guys and gals think of that?

 

Theory/idea/quackery #1

Rogaine increases circulation by dilating the outer arteries? So this helps the bodies natural program to digest and flush put the tattoo faster

...and this breaks up the concentration of ink faster causing blurring

...and this means there is more empty skin cells between the inked cells

...and so more red light is filtered out of the spectrum around the ink

...and so the ink starts looking green/blue?

 

Sound like nonsense? Probably? Maybe, but I certainly read it on HLTalk

That Rogaine is not good for SMP

which might make the hair plus ink plan less stellar. Still, it wouldn't stop me getting it.

[Dutch]

I would have thought the ink would fade eventually regaine or no regaine. Have you posted this question on balding blog to Dr Rassman? He'd definitely give you an answer on this.

[scar5]

That"s for sure, it will fade regardless. Mnn, nope, I haven't posted it on his blog. Matter of fact, I don"t think I"ve ever posted on any clinic"a own blog. Might be worth asking. I suspect the answer will be "no effect"

[Dr. Glenn Charles]

The ink will fade to some degree with time. The better the quality of the ink the slower it fades. When it does fade it often looks like a different color than originally supposed to be.

[scar5]

No doubt about that, it will fade.

Some people want it that way, but I wonder if Rogaine accelerates that effect?

 

Ink quality? Now that's something I mentioned on posts years ago, (to zero response) when I found out ink was kind of a wild west market.

 

And how does one know if the ink is good? Of course McDonalds will tell anyone who asks that their fries are good for babies

[Jholcollege11]

Hey, Ive been researching scalp micropigmentation for the last month, and rogaine fading the ink on the crown area has been one of my concerns also. I'm not sure how vasodilation could play a part in this, as previously mentioned as a possible explanation, and I also am not certain why everyone believes the tattoos will turn colors, even if there are no blue/green additives in the ink. I've had tattoos (black ink) on my arms for 12 years, and have gotten tons of tanning/sun exposure, and the color is still black. After talking with a company that does SMP, I came to the understanding that it will last as long and as well as you take care of it. Constant burning to the scalp from UV rays will obviously cause it to fade, b/c of the constant peeling of the epidermis. I was told by this provider that Rogaine can fade the tattoo if used within the first 30 days of having the procedure, b/c the skin has not had a chance to fully recover. I suppose any harsh chemical could do this, but I've never put rogain on my arm tats, so I'm not sure, and I would imagine that the scalp would have a different set of rules, so to speak, that the rest of the body. Did anyone find a definitive answer to the rogaine/fading thing?

[Jholcollege11]

I just read a response by Dr. Rassman to this question, on another forum. Dr. Rassman stated that he does not believe that minoxodil foam will fade the pigmentation, but he also said he does not know for sure b/c there is no research to support his theory. Of course, it would be much better for his business if Rogaine does not in fact cause fading, so he may not be an unbias party.

[Time to do something]

Can the ink be removed with a laser without damaging the hair follicle? If so then another procedure could be done.

[scar5]

I've had tattoos (black ink) on my arms for 12 years, and have gotten tons of tanning/sun exposure, and the color is still black.

 

Well, I believe you, but it is hard to sort out the wood from the trees.

 

They say, ALL tattoos will look a blue eventually, based on

 

a) Black is made up of Blue, Red and Yellow and the latter two fade first, leaving....?

b) The skin filters out red tone naturally

 

and then, as if the above is a worthless piece of garbage, they then go and say..

 

a) It "depends" on the ink

 

What the ??? does that leave us with?

 

As for the minox, I am gonna assume it might not be great, but I'll use it anyway

 

And 'TTDS'

 

Asking docs to to guarantee that laser removal of tatts won't harm hair is beating a dead horse. What have they got to gain giving you that guarantee, when they cannot be responsible for the laser treatment, even, assuming, they expect no complications from their end. For what it's worth, I had laser treatment to remove tatts and I don't think it did any harm to the hair, but my hair is so bad, it might be hard to tell.

[Time to do something]

Well, I believe you, but it is hard to sort out the wood from the trees.

 

They say, ALL tattoos will look a blue eventually, based on

 

a) Black is made up of Blue, Red and Yellow and the latter two fade first, leaving....?

b) The skin filters out red tone naturally

 

and then, as if the above is a worthless piece of garbage, they then go and say..

 

a) It "depends" on the ink

 

What the ??? does that leave us with?

 

As for the minox, I am gonna assume it might not be great, but I'll use it anyway

 

And 'TTDS'

 

Asking docs to to guarantee that laser removal of tatts won't harm hair is beating a dead horse. What have they got to gain giving you that guarantee, when they cannot be responsible for the laser treatment, even, assuming, they expect no complications from their end. For what it's worth, I had laser treatment to remove tatts and I don't think it did any harm to the hair, but my hair is so bad, it might be hard to tell.

 

I’ll beat that dead horse until it is pulverized. I for one will not undergo a procedure where the results are permanent and the long term effects are unknown. This procedure has not been around long enough to know what my happen in 20 years. If there was a reason it needed to be removed I’d want that guarantee and that it could be done without damaging the hair follicles. If not I won’t even think about this procedure. There could be a lot of unhappy traumatized people out there down the road who jumped into this. If you or anyone else feels comfortable having this procedure with the limited data available on it go for it. This is a matter of personal opinion. I’m just saying it may not be for me with all of the vagueness associated with it.

[whacked]

I'd postulate that lasering off the tattoo will harm the follicles. I have heard that tattoo removal lasers are THE MOST painful of all the aesthetic lasers; some times even scarring the patient.

 

If you are going the tat/pigmentation route, you'd better make sure that's what you want. That said, should you decide to get FUE later in life, I dont see why having SMP beforehand would make a difference.

 

Tattoo'ing the scalp should not adversly affect the scalp. If so, explain how? (with respect to potential hair replacement).

 

I know I do not stand alone when I say I am sick of hearing ''a cure is just 5 years away''. I've been hearign that for 20 years. I'm now 40 and not getting any younger so I just may do some additional research into this SMP.

 

I'm a type IV so I have very few options.

Edited March 26, 2012 by whacked

[scar5]

I’ll beat that dead horse until it is pulverized. I for one will not undergo a procedure where the results are permanent and the long term effects are unknown.

 

Yeah, well beat away. I guess u figured my minox question was dead or dying.

As for doing treatments that r not proven for the long run, yep, it is a gamble. My doc showed me propecia in the early 90s and I ran from it. I started on 2007 as a NW5-6, too late!

 

For ur question, which really should b a different thread, but anyway, I've read that removal of hair definitely messes with tattoos, it could happen the other way around, but tarts aren't as deep as hair, do the beam should b attracted to the Tatt first. Would residual heat harm the follIcle?

Perhaps a doc will chime in but don't expect any more than generalizations like, "it depends"

One thing they might do is say "we don't use oxides" but that's really to do with how effective laser removal is, rather than follicle stuff according to my last thirty minute check on the confusing, ambiguous, mind numbing, web search.

[Jholcollege11]

Man I really wish I knew more about the risks of smp, but like you guys have already stated, there are no long term results available. All we have are the facts we already know about pigments and how they react over time when they are injected as tats on other parts of the body deeper than the dermis. I am about a norwood 3 and have hair coverage on most of my head but a good bit is pretty thin hair, especially my crown area . Ive been taking finasteride 2.5 mg and rogaine for 7 years, have visited a Bosley consult site twice over the last 5 years -(both times they said im not candidate) and I was completely hopeless until I discovered smp two months ago. I was so excited b/c I believed this was my solution, but after alot of unanswered questions and skepticism on these forums, I am unsure. I put down my deposit for a clinic called GLI in Minnesota, and I am really impressed with their professionalism, but we all know this thing is just about money. The price is outrageous to be honest, but I really want to look better. I am not sure if I am getting scammed and wonder if 5 years from now will I have problems with the pigments on my head. I wonder if in five years these businesses will still be around or will I get a "you have reached a number that is no longer in service or that has been disconnected" when I call. GLI is a BBB member, and they are supposed to be featured on good morning america soon, but I am really nervous about long term effects, and it is not too late to turn back, so if anyone has any advice or feedback for me, I would greatly appreciate it. This is a difficult decision with potential long term repercussions so I just am trying to see if there is info out there that I am not aware of yet. Thanks everyone!

[Time to do something]

Man I really wish I knew more about the risks of smp, but like you guys have already stated, there are no long term results available. All we have are the facts we already know about pigments and how they react over time when they are injected as tats on other parts of the body deeper than the dermis. I am about a norwood 3 and have hair coverage on most of my head but a good bit is pretty thin hair, especially my crown area . Ive been taking finasteride 2.5 mg and rogaine for 7 years, have visited a Bosley consult site twice over the last 5 years -(both times they said im not candidate) and I was completely hopeless until I discovered smp two months ago. I was so excited b/c I believed this was my solution, but after alot of unanswered questions and skepticism on these forums, I am unsure. I put down my deposit for a clinic called GLI in Minnesota, and I am really impressed with their professionalism, but we all know this thing is just about money. The price is outrageous to be honest, but I really want to look better. I am not sure if I am getting scammed and wonder if 5 years from now will I have problems with the pigments on my head. I wonder if in five years these businesses will still be around or will I get a "you have reached a number that is no longer in service or that has been disconnected" when I call. GLI is a BBB member, and they are supposed to be featured on good morning america soon, but I am really nervous about long term effects, and it is not too late to turn back, so if anyone has any advice or feedback for me, I would greatly appreciate it. This is a difficult decision with potential long term repercussions so I just am trying to see if there is info out there that I am not aware of yet. Thanks everyone!

 

 

I feel your pain brother. I'm in the same boat. I plan to remove my hair piece in September so I need to figure out what to do soon. I feel like I'm playing the tables in Vegas especially after what I've gone through with the hair transplants. We need to keep each other in the loop with any information we find. Jotronic sent me a message that he knows of a place that does awesome temporary micropigmentation but it is in Milan Italy.

[Jholcollege11]

Yea man, for sure. Unity definitely makes procedures like this easier. Im sure it is tough with the HT's not going the way you wanted, so that makes you even more skeptical, and very rightfully so. If Bosley had accepted me as a client back in 07 or 09 I definitely would have FUE's right now. If I do go to the place in MN on May 1st, which I will more than likely do, I can email you before and after pics. I hear you on this being like playing craps in Vegas, I have this bad feeling that I may regret it if I do SMP and be more miserable than i am now. Ive read on one provider's site that if the needle the tech uses is too large, that it would produce dots too close together and eventually cause bleeding or migrating, resulting in one large ink shade on the scalp. AHHH, that sounds horrible! On the other hand, what if this thing is legit and can give me some freedom? This is a tough one, but I have to try something. I'll keep you posted though.

[scar5]

they are supposed to be featured on good morning america soon,

 

I hate them for this alone. I say boycott any of these companies that goes on television and tell the world about our little problem.

 

I know it is ridiculous to say so, and it won't help me any, but I can't help hating them more.

 

And those shows are BS of course. You pay your way in, so that's where some of that coin you will drop them will go.

 

If you want more food for thought

 

The speed at which the ink is injected is amazing. I mean it is like a jack hammer on the street pavement. But to get 20,000 dots in 3 hours, what else can they do?

 

And the touch ups? Well it is a case of hit and miss, 'General Area Bombing' so fully expect blurring to occur.

 

I certainly feel like a fool in some respects, and too clever in others, and I am reasonably sure enough, I will feel better with the barren pluggy areas of my NW 4/5 covered with a light smudge of ink. But I fully expect blurring!

 

And knowing looks from guys, and curious brow-creasing from girls, but if that is better than the looks I get now, then OK. I know if I just let my hair grow out and be an average balding middle-aged guy, my problems would be over, and so would the determination I had to repair all the BS I have done to myself over 25 years and the last flicker of hope to be able to walk around in the world with a look that is positive to me and congruent to how I wanna feel or identify with.

 

Perhaps that is where I will end up, and so be it. But if I have some pics of my SMP I'll show you guys.

 

I recommend you check out HairLossTalk and see how the skepticism works for you there too. It is quite interesting.

 

Remember the FUE skeptics? They ruled the web-waves for so long, even now you can still hear their chants 'hype', 'hype' ..Maybe some of that applies to SMP too. And good healthy skepticism too. Not all bad. I have been sucked into bad FUE too.

 

To the common fears I answer these.

 

1) It fades

Good, let it fade. matter of fact, depending on how good/bad it is I might help it on it's way, by tanning my head more.

2) It blurs

I have hair and I will grow it so that the texture is not all 2D. If I am really stuck, I might even put leg hair fluff on there through BHT. this blurring can't be worse than concealer can it?

3) It is worse than concealer, because with concealer you can adjust day-by-day.

Ok, but is also better than concealer too.

4) You will have no answer when a chick asks you, is this tattoo on your head?

Screwed

5) You will feel weak and defensive under nasty lighting, especially around guys in competitive environments.

So what is new? Had that with HT's for years

6) It will be even worse, worse than you can imagine

I will get a shrink and a laser machine and move to a new town and learn to build inner confidence

7) Then you confess that you are an idiot for doing it ahead of time

Well, life is about learning from your mistakes

 

If I were religious I'd say, God help us. We need a little luck on this one.

[Jholcollege11]

Good honest post Scar 5. I appreciate the feedback man! Yea youre right about the tv exposure, the best explanation is-the company that can afford to pay for a platform like Good morning america is going to get that exposure. GLI tells me that it is just a case of the news reporting what they see, and that b/c they are so good at what they do, the reporters are putting them on tv. I admit that business and advertising are not something I know alot about, so I can't say they are lying, but sounds kinda sketchy. On the other hand, they are definitely getting their name out there and national exposure would definitely be risky if they arent confident in their results. AHHh, what to do? Im like you in that I already deal with alot of these concerns like harsh lighting and strange looks so Im just ready to roll the dice. I may come back on here in five weeks crying like a little girl but Im tired of not doing anything. PS: you had me laughing on that comment about getting a shrink and moving to another town and building inner confidence

[azazelgs]

I'd like to say a few words about this since I'm very interested in doing smp.

 

I have been researching about this for 3 years now and 3 company stepped forward; HIS, GLI and Dr.Rassman. I went to London 7 months ago and see HIS procedure done to a technician named Damon who works in the London clinic. I must say it was a dissapointment. Color match was very good but the hairline is very very sharp and obvious that it is drawn,exactly what I don't like about HIS.Damon told me that he had the procedure couple of years ago and never got any touch up. When I ask about the hairline he agreed it is sharp but he said they were "evolving" their tecnique with new offices and techinicians so the hairlines were improving. But what I see didn't seem very attractive to me.

 

About GLI, I mailed them about my concerns on the fading out, removal and the appereance, send them my pictures. All I got was a price quota and lots of mail saying that they're the best in business, their unique technique etc.. Very agressive sales approach I think. Yesterday I emailed to Dr.Rassmans clinic and I'm waiting for a reply.

 

What I think? First, what I see in HIS was not impressive but I was exacty what I thought. While I was browsing their pics and videos, all I was saying was "damn what is wrong with those hairlines?" and got my answer. GLI's gallery still impresses me eventhough their agressive sales approach. Dr.Rassmans clinic seems they are drawing the best hairline but their work is not so great I believe.

 

How best to approach this?

1-Never do it without any hair. No matter what they say, it will be obvious that it is a tattoo. And you know that there is a drawing on your head that never gets shorter or longer.it is a big risk.

 

2-it will fade out.check out rassmans blog. Eventhough I'm not very impressed with his smp work, he is more honest than any other companies and he is a well known hair transplant doctor. He says that it will fade out eventually.

 

3-if you do it on a completely bald scalp, make it less dense than your sides. I see in my daily life there are some diffuse thinners that thinning in nw5-6 but have their hairline so it will look like that.

 

I'm sorry if I sabotage the topic but these are my opinions. Eventhough there are some cons about doing this, I still think it is a good option for higher nw levels and never get a great density with ht.I for example , I really don't want to lose the option to buzz my head no matter what. But I know I'm going to end up being nw 5-6. So these are my two cents.

[scar5]

Azazaz,

 

Nice posts, good thoughts. Agree on almost all counts.

 

Especially,

 

1) Hair lines - spray on stencil helmet line 'SOSH line'. Note a lot of clinics (call em whatever) say that the helmet was 'just what the customer ordered...hip hop...bla..bla. But there have been so many ridiculous looking helmets now it is beyond a joke.

 

2) Rassman's ability to graduate hairline, but I have also seen the odd HIS case that is nicely graduated too, including the sides.

 

3) Rassman's honesty re. a) green/blue hue, b) fade

 

4) The absolute necessity to have hair to add texture, even a little, especially if the color contrast is strong

 

5) Need to graduate sides. Here the problem might be because they can't be bothered doing the art work they need to, especially as the ink will significantly fade at around the three week mark

 

5) Which brings me to something you didn't mention - the need to let the ink wash out a little before having the touch up, second or third procedure.

 

I gotta ask you though, what was it about Rassman's work that wasn't great? Too blotchy?

[azazelgs]

Scar5,

 

I really don't know.

[Jholcollege11]

I emailed Dr Pak who performs the SMP procedures at Dr Rassmans NHI clinic, and he gave me a quote of $6,000. He explained to me that this is the price for full scalp coverage, and five procedures- and they do not reccomend anything less than full coverage. I too was unimpressed with NHI's gallery. To me the after photos just look too shiny and sticky. Not natural looking to me. At present my biggest concern is the fading and if the touch up process would be able to combat this. When I was having a conversation over the phone with a woman who works for GLI, she was very friendly and helpful, but as soon as I mentioned the touch ups and asked about pricing, I immediately noticed a change in her tone- almost defensive like I had insulted her. This kind of made me uneasy. I emailed GLI last night and asked if I would have a guarantee on the price of future touch ups, or would this price be subject to inflation as time goes by, and Im just waiting for a response. My other concerns are:

1) When the tech does a touch up, will they tattoo exactly over each of the thousands of dots or will some "new ones" emerge in between the existing dots causing more of a solid look?- which would not be good

 

2) Will going back over the same dots cause them to get bigger and bigger also causing a migration?

 

3) will it be difficult to get an appointment for a touch up (3 - 5 years down the road for example) since the clinic will only make a fraction of the original smp price? Or will they suddenly be booked?

 

4) Will the clinic have enough of an insentive to do a good job on a touch up, or will they pass me off to be a guinee pig to a trainee tech?

 

Just some things that concern me for down the road

[scar5]

I too was unimpressed with NHI's gallery. To me the after photos just look too shiny and sticky. Not natural looking to me.

 

 

Mnn, that's interesting. If the pics were taken immediately post-procedure they will look shiny and sticky because of the cream they apply

 

the ink that will be left deposited on the surface of the skin and to any remaining hair will add a lot of blackness, so I wonder if those pics are not fresh?

 

All pics in these galleries should be labelled with something indicated how long post-procedure the pics were taken . It would help us gauge the results a lot better.

 

But shiny? I can't see how they can create shine the ink is going under the skin.

 

There is no way of avoiding the gradual smudging IMO. They can't 'refill' the same skin cells with ink. It is as I said earlier, 'general area bombing' - just gradually saturating the skin with more dots. But hopefully the faded ones will fade.

 

But I doubt they will entirely fade.

[Time to do something]

I emailed Dr Pak who performs the SMP procedures at Dr Rassmans NHI clinic, and he gave me a quote of $6,000. He explained to me that this is the price for full scalp coverage, and five procedures- and they do not reccomend anything less than full coverage. I too was unimpressed with NHI's gallery. To me the after photos just look too shiny and sticky. Not natural looking to me. At present my biggest concern is the fading and if the touch up process would be able to combat this. When I was having a conversation over the phone with a woman who works for GLI, she was very friendly and helpful, but as soon as I mentioned the touch ups and asked about pricing, I immediately noticed a change in her tone- almost defensive like I had insulted her. This kind of made me uneasy. I emailed GLI last night and asked if I would have a guarantee on the price of future touch ups, or would this price be subject to inflation as time goes by, and Im just waiting for a response. My other concerns are:

1) When the tech does a touch up, will they tattoo exactly over each of the thousands of dots or will some "new ones" emerge in between the existing dots causing more of a solid look?- which would not be good

 

2) Will going back over the same dots cause them to get bigger and bigger also causing a migration?

 

3) will it be difficult to get an appointment for a touch up (3 - 5 years down the road for example) since the clinic will only make a fraction of the original smp price? Or will they suddenly be booked?

 

4) Will the clinic have enough of an insentive to do a good job on a touch up, or will they pass me off to be a guinee pig to a trainee tech?

 

Just some things that concern me for down the road

 

Whenever I asked GLI a question they didn't like their tone changed. They became rude, short and acted like "how dare you ask that". I ran out the door.

[scar5]

Yeah, it seems that AC and GLI are not too subtle on the marketing side of things.

[Jholcollege11]

Yea Scar 5,on nhi's gallery probably what I was seeing was the shine of the lotion or cream reflecting off of the flash of the camera. Hard to tell from the gallery whether or not they do good work. I have trouble in the galleries deciding whether one company is just doctoring pics or is their product better than this one b/c it looks better? No way to know from pics in my opinion. I did not know that skin cells cannot be injected twice with ink. Interesting. Makes the touchup process seem irrelevant. TimeToDoSomething- Im sorry you had a bad experience with GLI, that sucks. I can only speak from my experience, and so far they have been nice and professional and not overly-aggressive. Maybe they have changed their sales tactics since you guys talked to them. I can honestly say that they have never contacted me by email or phone, without me contacting them first. They never really seemed too interested in whether I chose them or not, which kind of made me a little skeptical.( I kind of wouldve liked a little more aggression than what they showed me) When I had my consultation over the phone, the guy asked me if I was sure that I wanted this done b/c based on my pics he thought I had pretty good amount of hair. He was very helpful and he even said toward the end of the consult that if I didnt choose him that I should go to AC in Florida. I still dont fully understand that, but ok LOL. Basically what I got from him was this paraphrase- "If you choose us great, if you don't, that's ok too. Have a nice day." LOL. For me it was basically choosing "the lesser of the evils" and that was GLI. Im not saying they are the Best provider, but I am saying that I believe they are and REALLY hope they are. When I called AC in FLA, a young guy answered and was not helpful. I asked him about three or four questions and all I got in return was- "Yep", "uh huh" and "ok". It was honestly just like talking to a tattoo shop. After this two minute convo, coupled with AC's site being one big bash-other-providers fest, I decided no way. Im still waiting on response from GLI about touch ups.