Looking for a doctor that does great work with hairlines...?

[Jotronic]

I understand where Matt is coming from. During consultations, both on the phone and in person, things can be said that may be misunderstood or taken out of context. For instance, I was telling a patient the other day that Matt has an odd preoccupation with circus clowns. What he thought I said was that Matt is a great representative for SMG and is always complimentary of other clinics and never has anything bad to say. Can you believe that? Another time was when a patient thought I said that Matt Zupan is one of the longest serving patient educators in the business and has a firm grasp on patient education. I slapped myself on the forehead when I heard this and had to correct him. What I said was that if you look closely Matt looks like a guy that was on America's most wanted and if you decide to keep dealing with him do so at your own risk. Ha, it's funny how things can get mixed up, I tell ya!

 

In reality, of course, I'm joking and just ribbing Matt a bit. He's a good guy and I hope he gets my humor in the post above. While I obviously cannot speak to the conversation between Matt and the OP I know Matt to be complimentary of other clinics and has no need to talk smack just to get someone in the chair. Maybe there was a misunderstanding? Who knows but Matt has been a valuable educator in this field for many years. This much I know.

[galtsglutch]

Thanks for sharing your experience Josh. It's good to hear the good and the bad experiences.

 

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like it has made your decision any easier. At this point, I would consider some of the other factors that previous posters have mentioned such as location and cost.

 

These are perfectly legitimate concerns especially when you've narrowed your search down to three top clinics. If you feel more comfortable with one than the other, but price is holding you back, I would let it be known and perhaps the one you feel best about can lower their price a little. It doesn't hurt to ask...

[Jotronic]

Corvettester,

 

I don't know what their philosophy on temple points is, but if I were you, I'd make sure to find out and to examine several of their results specifically concerning temple points.

 

We basically brought this possibility to the forefront years ago starting with my case. No one really talked about it much until I started showing what Dr. Wong did for me and my temple points, among other things. No one has talked about how essential temple points are more than me. They provide a balance to one's profile and if one's hairline is placed too low without the patient having proper temples points, either reconstructed or still in place naturally, then the HT result can look like a hair piece because hair pieces do not touch the temple points. It's one of the big give-aways.

 

Here are the pre-op shots before #2 with Dr. Wong in, I believe, November, 2002. Dr. Wong is drawing in the temple points for reference during the incisions making process.

 

 

The left side still had some remnants of temples points, my right side temple point was obliterated from recession.

 

 

Here is what my temple points looked like later on. In these two pics my hair is wet and slicked back so it really shows the desing...

 

 

 

 

 

 

For years temple points were considered a "no go" zone because when clinics use needles it is very difficult to get the angle of growth to be flat enough against the side of the scalp. Flat blades allowed for this more easily. Temple point reconstruction however is not always a good idea if they have receded. If one has dark coarse hair on white skin it is difficult to make the temple points look natural. Cases like this actually play a big part in determining hairline position because of the "profile" point made above.

 

We do a LOT of temple point work and I would guess that roughly 50% to 75% of our patients have some degree of temple point work, some to lesser and others to greater degrees.

[Zup]

Joe, I get it!!! You are a witty guy.

 

The first paragragh made me a bit nervous, and the picture of me on the Ultimate field with my cap, could very well pass for America's Most wanted.

 

And, kudos to you for all your many contributions to this industry.

 

Regards, Matt

[corvettester]

We basically brought this possibility to the forefront years ago starting with my case. No one really talked about it much until I started showing what Dr. Wong did for me and my temple points, among other things. No one has talked about how essential temple points are more than me. They provide a balance to one's profile and if one's hairline is placed too low without the patient having proper temples points, either reconstructed or still in place naturally, then the HT result can look like a hair piece because hair pieces do not touch the temple points. It's one of the big give-aways.

 

Temple point reconstruction however is not always a good idea if they have receded

 

 

Thanks for sharing Joetronic.

 

As far as patient members go, it seems like it's only ever myself and Hairthere, Spanker and TC17 that are preaching the gosple of temple points. I imagine that is only because NW4s and above have more important things to worry about.

 

If you look at all the celebs with the famous hairlines (Clooney, Pitt, Cruise, Pattison), they all have the most pronounced and well-defined temple points... almost to the point of encroaching on the face! So when I see an HT that doesn't address the temple points, I get real salty...

 

Anyway, could you explain further why temple point reconstruction is not always a good idea if they have receded? Thanks.

 

 

Corvettester

[aaron1234]

Killer temple points Joe. Making me think about addressing mine - though they're mostly still there.

[Zup]

corvetester,

-temporal peaks are great, and accent the face and you will usually find them on men with full heads of hair.

The concern is in building them out you are using hair technically outside the MPA, and if the side recede further in time, one is obligated to back fill the area out of necessity, using up more grafts. Ironically the patients that generally loss them are patients that generally have more extensive hair loss, where the need for hair may be more important elsewhere. If the patient can maintain a full head of hair things work out fine, but it the patient, runs out of grafts and has a bald crown the work can look a little top heavy and a bit peculiar.

Fortunately, they don't generally require a ton of hair, these areas just need to be established to fame the face, high density is not necessary.

Joe, it your turn....Zup

[hairthere]

Temple points, as Corvettester pointed out, are one of my favorite subjects and I do feel one of the most important aspects of creating a great-looking hairline. It just looks plain weird without them.

 

I must say I was worried about having mine reconstructed as my hair is very coarse and dark. And as Jotronic admonished can be tricky to recreate. However, after having Dr. Feller do a relatively small fue session (200/side) I can say the results are extremely natural and I would like to be even more aggressive with them. If I do go in for another surgery I'm going to address them one more time and perhaps have the corner temples closed in just a notch.

 

Zup, I have seen plenty of guys with advanced balding that have retained their TPs, though. Honestly I think a guy with a higher NW number and strong temple points looks better than a guy with a low, strong hairline and receded temple points. The former just looks more natural.

Edited September 13, 2011 by hairthere

[Zup]

Hairthere,

I myself am very picky and particular, and I am a fan of them, they enhance and are part of framing the face as much as the hairline that runs horizon across the forehead.

Some of what I am saying, is when to do them, and the possible risks associated.

And, if a patient can be built back to a full head of hair and maintain that over time, temporal peaks should be included. So your latter scenic with the patient with a low, strong hairline (most likely a full head of hair behind the hair line) and no temporal peaks, build them up.

There are always exceptions but of patient I've seen, the more progressive the hairloss type 6-7, from the temporal peak to the temporal corner this area can recede extensively, at almost a 45% angle back. One can be in store for a lot of work and back fill, to establish this fame, which may not leave a ton of hair for the posterior region. And, now what one has is a front border around his face that implies, his patient has a full head of hair, but sports a bald crown the size of a grapefruit, not generally seen in nature. All i am saying is just be careful and one needs to think about these things in planning and doing transplants. What i have found is hairlines, generally, (i sure there are exceptions) the stronger the anterior border, the fuller head of hair behind it. As, men thin and progress that border weakens accordingly.

All iam saying is one needs to be a little careful, in planning, but if you are a good candidate, add THEM.

[Zup]

By the way I think Joe’s, lateral sides look prefect, just right!

Very balanced with the position of the hairline and temporal corners, right amount of definition and of course natural. His entire hair line from ear around to the other ear; is nicely balanced in regard to the density and coverage that’s on top of his head. This is a look you would fine in nature, with someone who has not done a transplant, but thinned a bit in the crown and has good moderate density in the front, but not quite normal density.

Now, if Joe 10-12 years ago would have created a more aggressive anterior border, I don't believe the balance and naturalness would be the same.

This has been well planned out....

[aaron1234]

I agree that temple points can make a HUGE difference. Zup, what do you think? Would it be a prudent use of donor for someone with my loss to get temple points done? The sides are still there but the points have miniaturized for sure. Especially my left side with the two rockin' moles!

[Zup]

Aaron,

 

Eventhough you are fairly young, and could progress quite a bit, especially if you did not use Meds. Your donor, is fairly good in density and characteristics and the sides don't seem to be at jeapordy of spiralling out of control.

 

I believe you could address those areas, but no need to be aggressive. The left side, actaully looks fine, nothing more then and a little strengthening, and bringing out the tip. Then adjust the right side with it.

 

It is only if you really wanted to, we would be receptive, otherwise there is no need. Yours temporal peaks are there, and still come out.

Edited September 14, 2011 by Zup

[aaron1234]

Hmm... you've got me thinking about what to do with those spare grafts from my pending scar revision.

 

Thanks Zup!

[Severn]

Matt was one of the deciding factors for me chosing SMG actually. I had 4 scalp reductions perfomed on me 13 years prior to my HT. At least one of the other consults I had done seemed to gloss over this like it was no problem at all. In fact, they glowingly praised me saying "I was a HT surgeon's dream patient". I felt this was a line of bull because my laxity wasn't really there. After consulting with Matt, he showed concern that my laxity wasn't good enough to get 2500 on one pass. Instead of hard selling me, he told it to me straight. Luckily I was able to do enough scalp exersizes prior to the surgery to more than accomodate the numbers I needed.

 

In summary, Matt was the only consultant that didn't make me feel like I was at a used car dealership.

[Jotronic]

Aaron,

 

I think temple point work would look good on you. Have you noticed that your right side has receded more than your left side? This is very common and most men recede in the temple points more on the right than the left. Here is a quick mock up I did to show you how temple point work could balance your profile.

 

[aaron1234]

Aaron,

 

I think temple point work would look good on you. Have you noticed that your right side has receded more than your left side? This is very common and most men recede in the temple points more on the right than the left. Here is a quick mock up I did to show you how temple point work could balance your profile.

 

Wow, great photoshop work there Joe! My hair-greed-ometer just went in the red!

 

I was actually thinking about addressing the temple points for my last procedure but I just thought that at the time the top needed the grafts more. It's definitely something I'm considering for the future.

 

That's very interesting about the right side receding more than the left. I really haven't noticed it. In fact, I thought the left was a tad worse - maybe because I was incorrectly using the moles as a measure mark rather than my eyes.

 

Thanks again for putting that together. Very, very helpful.

[Jotronic]

Anyway, could you explain further why temple point reconstruction is not always a good idea if they have receded? Thanks.

 

Corvettester,

 

I didn't see if Matt touched on this but another reason why rebuilding temple points might not be a good idea for some patients comes down to the type of hair being used. If a patient has coarse hair and pale skin then temple point reconstruction might not be recommended due to the naturalness issue, or rather, the lack thereof. Some hair just doesn't work well for temple points thus it should be avoided. This will also determine hairline placement, again, to avoid the "front heavy" appearance. It really comes down to being a game day decision because that is when the doc can see just exactly what it is that he has to work with and can determine the best coarse of action.

[Jotronic]

My hair-greed-ometer just went in the red!

 

I figured it would;)

[corvettester]

Aaron,

 

I think temple point work would look good on you. Have you noticed that your right side has receded more than your left side? This is very common and most men recede in the temple points more on the right than the left. Here is a quick mock up I did to show you how temple point work could balance your profile.

 

Now that's what I'm talking about! Nice mockup Joetronic.

 

I would have made them even more dramatic.

 

I also think it would look better if you closed off the corners a little more... just filled them in so that they don't have such a severe V shape, but more like the number 7 shape instead.

 

Otherwise, as the temple points protrude outward, it may make the recession of the widow's peak appear deeper than it really is... Basically, you have to balance the corners with the temple points.

 

 

Corvettester

[hairthere]

Jo, that's pretty odd, it is my right side that has indeed receded more than the left. I wonder what the reason behind this is? Regarding hair type, I have super coarse, wavy hair and the quality of it post fue into the temple points has in fact relaxed quite a bit. However I can see how this hair type could cause a problem with naturally recreating the TPs...

[Jotronic]

Your guess is as good as ours as to why the right side recedes more than the left. It's not in everyone but most everyone that has hair loss, even if it doesn't look like any loss has occurred.

 

How about this to turn your crank. Look at the whorl of your crown. Almost everyone's crown grows in a clockwise rotation. Did you know that the whorl pattern almost always radiates outward and eventually progresses all the way around your scalp? In other words, the direction of growth on the left side of your scalp, leading into the temple point, is usually forward while the direction on the right side of your scalp is usually back toward the back of the scalp?

 

If you think that is trippy, I've got another one that is even more weird. Most people are right handed and also have a right turing or clockwise rotation to the crown. Those few that have a counter-clockwise rotation to the crown whorl (left turning) are usually either left handed or ambidextrous.

[Mp96]

I will also add that after my initial consult with Matt, he answered all follow up questions promptly, whether at night or on the weekend or during the work week.

 

Orlhair,

 

 

So your saying that SMG practice how any human being should be treated? We''ll thank God to that....!!!!! Don't know if i could handle being in suspense again,,,!!!

[orlhair1]

Orlhair,

 

 

So your saying that SMG practice how any human being should be treated? We''ll thank God to that....!!!!! Don't know if i could handle being in suspense again,,,!!!

 

Not sure what your point is......all I was saying was Matt was very helpful to me throughout the process. Trust me, not everyone will talk to you or respond to you outside of normal business hours. I didn't expect it and thought it was great service.

[aaron1234]

Now that's what I'm talking about! Nice mockup Joetronic.

 

I would have made them even more dramatic.

 

Don't tempt me Corv!

[joshelstad]

It really doesn't interest me to judge people based on their "repoir". What interests me is judging them based on my direct experience with them. Talking to Matt Zupan was definitely a bad experience for me and I will not be proceeding with SMG on any level. I had no idea posting such a comment would cause such a huge fuss, then again I am new to this website and I guess I am uncertain how obssessive a lot of people seem to be in regards to these matters. Again, what concerns me is how capable a person can navigate away from their own "self-beliefs" and be compassionate and listen to the words of others- and this extends far beyond hair transplant consultations. I do not care to know how long the patient educator has "been in the business" or who does what at each international conference and why this person is better than this person or why their approach is the right way, etc. etc.... One word comes to mind here... EGO. I got the answers to a lot of questions I didn't even ask. As well as a lot of build up to boost the ego above others. Again, none of this interests me on any level. A lot of people have sent me personal messages saying they have had similar experiences with consultations, with SMG and other places as well. It's a shame that we as hairloss sufferers have to be subject to the pocket books and egos of some clinics. It makes trying to come up with a resolution, for most likely the biggest insecurity of our daily lives, a stressful struggle in which we are pulled in dozens of different directions. What deters me is the lack of exceptance someone has to the fact that there are several different approaches to creating a successful head of hair for several different individuals. There are always multiple ways to go about the same thing, and again, this extends far beyond hair transplants.

 

On the other hand, I had a remarkable and very educational consultation with Dr. Rahal. He emailed me personally and I spoke with Dr. Rahal himself on Monday. He was calm and considerate. He told me how he goes about his procedures and what I should expect from him. He also told me how other doctors go about their procedures and what I can expect from them. He never said he was better, the leader, or did things the "right way". He just gave me options. He never once compared himself on an egocentric level with anyone else in the business and he started the consultation by saying, "I will allow you to go first and ask me any questions you might have". This was confidence in himself and his work. That was exactly what I was looking for.

Edited September 16, 2011 by joshelstad