Question about 7700 graft session at H&W

[UGLY MAN 4 LIFE]

Originally posted by troy:

That may be a record in one sitting Ht graft count, but it also looks like a record long strip. B, I would way rather have 3-4 Hts than a strip from one side of my head to the other. I also think that the scar could fall out of the sweet spot and one day the scar become an issue. My scar is small in length and I wouldnt want it any longer.

 

IMO I think doctors who are performing 3-4 sessions should be made to explain themselves or at least have the patient fully informed. I've seen a number of cases on this forum from coalition docs who I think, have overstated the densities patients can expect.

[John_in_NC]

I have minor hairloss comparatively speaking (1500-2000 grafts will fix me up for life) but if I were a #5+, I'd bite the bullet and try to get it over with in one shot. Having 3-4 surgeries, especially with the strip and shaving are too much; each surgery requires at 4 months of looking like a dork . It's all a matter of preference of course, but waiting for it to grow and hiding behind a hat sucks. Doing for 3-4 years sucks even more. Maybe two surgeries: one large and the other to repair or concentrate on certain spots 2-3 years later. The first one will give decent coverage for the time being, and you can plan the second around your schedule.

 

Originally posted by UGLY MAN 4 LIFE:

Originally posted by troy:

That may be a record in one sitting Ht graft count, but it also looks like a record long strip. B, I would way rather have 3-4 Hts than a strip from one side of my head to the other. I also think that the scar could fall out of the sweet spot and one day the scar become an issue. My scar is small in length and I wouldnt want it any longer.

 

IMO I think doctors who are performing 3-4 sessions should be made to explain themselves or at least have the patient fully informed. I've seen a number of cases on this forum from coalition docs who I think, have overstated the densities patients can expect.

[Bushy]

Originally posted by the B spot:

That's fine Bushy, as long as it is recognized as OPINION.

This is what troubles me about your posts and their tenor. With all due respect, you write as if on the same level as Dr. Hasson -- your opinion versus his. This is very typical of a law student; I was once there. But years of experience have taught me the wisdom of humility, often the hard way (the first time you address a judge that way and you get reamed out or even threatened with contempt you'll know what I mean).

 

Consider the presumptuousness (naivet???©?) of your comments:

1) This guy has almost EXACTLY the same type of donor I have. You don't know that at all.

2) I think his scar is outside the safe zone. Need I even comment? You are telling Dr. Hasson where the safe zone is? When you get your medical degree from a distinguished institution then perform 10,000 HT's, then I'll be interested in your opinion as to where this guy's safe zone is.

3) If you look at his nape, he has thinned there as well. Do you actually believe that you can determine this with even a modicum of scientific credibility by looking at an internet picture?

4) The length of time in the chair is of a concern as well. Do you think Dr. Hasson didn't consider this?

5) Hairtransplantation is NOT a instant reward under-taking. Says who? Fifteen years ago, when Bosley was leading the industry with 800 graft sessions, people were saying that HT's can just give you a sprinkling of hair, but if you want a full head of hair you need a toupee. Tell that to Bobman and Nicnitro. And Londonlad. Do you see the problem with this blanket statement? You are imposing your view on the rest of the world.

6) What about growth percentage and waste? Another doozy of an oversight by Dr. Haason, I suppose.

7) Everyone has to admit that the larger and longer the session the risks of lower yield, waste and scarring issues INCREASE exponentially. As the slightly-more-informed Dr. Hasson pointed out, the facts are quite the opposite.

 

B-Spot, many of your questions are quite fair and valid. When I saw the scar I, too, had a double-take. But I am wise enough to know the limits of my knowledge (which is minimal wisdom, I assure you). It is one thing to then inquire, but a whole other to make all sorts of unsupported, often naive, presumptions on an internet forum under the cover of "the purpose of this site is to allow us to view work and question/comment as we see fit," and "I know this is not a fun topic, but I feel I have to broach it."

[JakeVig]

Since it seems like everyone else has posted - I thought I might chime in with my 2c as well :-). Everything below is only my opinion based on my personal research - I do not pretend to know as much Dr Hasson.

 

I also have reservations of these mega-mega sessions of this size and personally I dont think that it was appropriate for this patient, heres why:

 

My main concern is this guy is young and with all due respect to Dr Hasson knowledge and expertise he cannot predict the future with absolute certainty. He does provide statistics of people becoming NW7 at somewhere between 1/9 - 1/10. I would think that having his level of baldness so young surely has to increase his odds of becoming a NW7.

 

There is *NO* scientific evidence on the yield of smaller vs mega sessions *either way*. After 1000's of HT's we can pretty much predict the results of 3-4k sessions. Using basic logic we can at least deduct some risks of mega sessions, i.e. a bigger strip has the potential of a bigger scar.

 

The opinions of H&W on the results of these mega-mega sessions are *NOT* shared amongst all the other very knowledgeable and expert docs in the coalition. This is not just our opinion vs H&W, it is also coalition doc vs coalition doc.

 

Personally I dont think 3-4 HT's is necessary for a patient who has *ideal* hair characteristics. Though I believe 2 mega sessions of 4k would've been ideal since he has ideal hair characteristics he could be pretty much guaranteed a great result based on emperical evidence of the 1000's of HT's performed in the past - so why take the risk? The best patient transformations at H&W like Bobman and Jotronic both had multiple HT's which I believe strenthens the argument for multiple HT's.

 

Consequently, I dont think whether or not this was the most optimal strategy for this patient is the issue here. The only issue here I believe is whether or not this patient was educated on the potential risks of a session of this size - which I no doubt believe he was. Then it is up to the patient what his approach would be. Peronally I am very conservitive by nature so I would have definately have gone with at least 2 sessions - but thats just me! Without knowing the end result of his scar, I believe in the short term this guy would be happier with 7.7k grafts over 4k as he will end up with a better cosmetic result after 1 year. Its the long term results that remains uncertain.

 

I would still like to know all the stats about this patients HT, i.e. donor density, laxity, hair count, breakdown of 1's, 2's, 3's etc.

[Gorpy]

Isn't this a bit of a moot point? As Dr. Hasson states, this size session is the exception, not the rule. Most Dr. Hasson patients receive around 4k grafts. A more typical example of a H&W patient would be DHTAssassin from the other site. He received 4200 grafts on a NW5 head. That's not nearly enough grafts to make him happy, so guess what - he'll be back in the chair again soon. The reality is, very few patients are one and done, even with H&W.

[troy]

I guess seeing that scar freeked me out, but someone had said maybe if recesion becomes a factor they could fue some hair into the scar. I think everyone wants to get to an end result asap and hopefully this person will help this debate by keeping a journal. if in 6-8 months he has amazing results, then it is the indefintae result that is in question that only time will tell. To Bushy, you seem very intelligent and a great debater, no doubt a great attorney, but I dont always listen tot Doctors, justbecause they are doctors. I was aweight lifter and was having shoulder problems and the doc recommended me getting on pain pills!!! If I would have taken his advise I no doubt would have ruined my shoulder, I took my own advise and stopped training and healed. Also look at all the docs who have butchered people. I know Hasson and wong have and elite name for themselves, and have done a ton of HT, but each person should still evaluate the info the doc advises then weigh it out themselves. I think you would agree.

[london__lad]

I do not really want to get to involved in this debate but feel I have to just to clear a few things up. MisterChris I haven't a clue where you get your info from but i'm infact 30, not 27 which you seem to be claiming.

 

Also regarding the scar it is 30x2 cm. I trust Dr hasson 100% and with all due respect his opinion is held in a much higher regard than that most, and certainly those who are just looking at internet photos and judging future outcomes.

 

I am not a gambling man and would never gamble when it comes to my appearance just to get a quick fix and not think about what I will look like in 10 years time. I have researched this descion for many years and have looked at my family history and took it all in consideration. I have maxed out the amount of grafts in one hit and have plenty in reserve if need be but don't feel it will be needed. If I thought there was any chance of me receeding to a nw7 level then there is no way I would even contenplate into a ht period.

[Bushy]

Originally posted by Gorpy:

Isn't this a bit of a moot point? As Dr. Hasson states, this size session is the exception, not the rule. Most Dr. Hasson patients receive around 4k grafts.

Excellent point.

[Bushy]

Originally posted by troy:

. . . I don't always listen to Doctors, just because they are doctors . . . . each person should still evaluate the info the doc advises then weigh it out themselves. I think you would agree.

I couldn't agree more, Troy. In fact, I wrote "it is one thing to then inquire, but a whole other to make all sorts of unsupported, often naive, presumptions." When I saw that scar I, too, thought "whoaaaaa!" But I did not assume that I know better than Dr. Hasson. Instead, I (on the other site) first asked Londonlad to post some profile pics, so I could get a better view of the donor area. If I was still troubled by it, I'd contact Dr. Hasson to inquire, or even post a question to him. If Dr. Hasson's explanation was less than satisfactory to me I wouldn't buy it. (That's where I completely agree with you.)

 

I objected to B-spot's posts because he wasn't merely inquiring; He was casting suspicion and launching criticism without the benefit of seeking, discovering and digesting the facts.

[bayscholar]

I feel I unintentionally fueled this threads debate based on an incorrect assumption(made viewing 5pics on hlh, again pics alone are not enough), I owe it to LL to say sorry for the mess. He did not in fact have a 35cm strip as I posted early on in the thread, he had 30cm strip.. shorter then my own. Good growth to you LL you visited one of the best clinics in th world.

 

In regards to my Fue statement, I was simply trying to offer my own thinking and planing in case of (%error) as a method to help camouflage a strip scar.. As your temporal region recedes you theoretically should be able to assist coverage in that area cosmetically speaking via fue, as a fire extinguisher of sorts...doing so if and only if you are part of the % error that affect every type of business Doctor profession etc nothing in life is 100% but death and taxes.

[Guest Landen]

Also regarding the scar it is 30x2 cm

 

 

london_lad,

 

So, was your donor density 130 grafts per cm^2 ?

[Guest Rickmonius]

Originally posted by Landen:

Also regarding the scar it is 30x2 cm

 

 

london_lad,

 

So, was your donor density 130 grafts per cm^2 ?

Here's what he wrote at the other forum. wow. Let's face it, this guy is pretty unique:

 

Originally posted by: london_lad

 

most people that saw my before pics said I wouldn't be a good candidate so just shows that pics dont mean much really. My density in donor area was 150 cm2.

[JakeVig]

Hey Londonlad,

 

Great to see you on this forum. The only other (H&W) patient that I know that had 7k+ in one sitting had great results:

http://www.hassonandwong.com/patient_gallery/photo_view...ansplant_type=normal

 

And since you are not working with a clean slate (i.e. bald) you could be looking to get an even better transformation then Bobman or Jotronic! I hope you're on Propecia to keep as much of your native hair as possible.

 

Reading through the posts on the other forum I read that your strip was 30 x 2cm yielding 7761 grafts which works out to be over 129cm2? If that's true that is some freakish density! Did Dr Hasson give you the breakdown on 1's, 2's or 3's? or what the total no of hairs transplanted were?

 

We'll I hope you keep your results posted.

[Guest Landen]

london_lad,

 

150 cm^2 is some serious density. You were truly blessed with abundant donor resources.

 

Be cautious of any movements that may widen that scar. Avoid heavy lifting, etc. for the specified period of time as advised by your doctor. Happy growing to you!

[John_in_NC]

thread conclusion:

 

1. Unless we have a medical degree, have examined and talked to the patient we really don't know much...at least not near as much as the doctor knows.

2. To each his own.

 

[london__lad]

bayscholar, I have no problem with your Fue statement and it does make absolute sense what you say that I could use fue into scar if needed. What makes me laugh is people are making statements purely by guess work by just looking at photos.

 

For instance B spot seems to think he has donor hair simular to mine by looking at a picture. My hair density in the donor area used was around 150cm2 according to Dr.H. Maybe he does have, if so then he has no worries about future supply.

 

Jakevig, I can only dream of getting results like Bobman and Jo, would be great to get somewhere near. I have been using Proscar for one year but now Dr H has advised me to switch to Avodart.

 

I recieved 5760 multihair fu and 2001 singles.

[bayscholar]

London_lad,

 

I too made the switch to avodart(1.5months before my HT with Dr.H). I can tell you it has worked better for me in the crown then propecia, much better really. By the way you are a freak mate 5760 multihairs that is a blessing from the donor gods..congrats on possibly the best ht to date ..sorry I think I came down with the assumption bug on Friday and can't shake it yet, same cold that b-spot got I think...I have read a ton of his post and his intentions and post are good..(%error)

 

cheers (I need that cool beer icon bushy has in some of his post).

[JakeVig]

Originally posted by london__lad:

I recieved 5760 multihair fu and 2001 singles.

 

Goddamn my friend you are truly blessed! density as high as 150cm2 with over 2/3 multi FU's thats over 13500+ hairs!

 

I heard that we have around 4cm wide of donor hair available. Even if you have only 1.5cm on average left that is still another 5820 grafts or 10125 hairs left in the bank. That is one rich donor supply!

[Bushy]

Originally posted by bayscholar:

I need that cool beer icon bushy has in some of his post.

[John_in_NC]

london__lad,

are you going to be on the pills for the rest of your life? if so, why? If the hair is from the "safe" zones, why the worry? If it's temporary I could understand, but being on the pills for ages is not something to look forward to IMO

[Jotronic]

B Spot,

 

"But how is it that YOU lead the field in density, session size, length and width of donor tissue, documented results,etc... and yet you have not researched this information?"

 

You know, when we see cases where a patient comes to us for round two after having poor growth from Dr. "X" it is easy to see the areas where the previously transplanted hairs did not grow. You mentioned something about logic earlier so if you wish to use logic then here goes. It is logical to stipulate that if one has an issue of poor growth that the growth would be in patches (as we have seen in such cases) and not in a random pattern that is unrecognizeable to the human eye. When we have patients that come back for round two after the first session or a follow up visit with us (and after having a megasession) we do not see such patches. The "research" that you so eagerly wish to scrutinize has been performed by simple observation over the years as the session sizes have grown. It's taken a looooong time for Dr. Hasson and Dr. Wong to get to the point of such sized sessions after coming up with ideas and then waiting for months to see the final outcome.

 

Another thing that you need to realize is that sessions like that of London Lad are indeed the exception and not even in the same galaxy as the rule. Having said that the duration of work performed by the technicians in this case is again the exception and not the rule. The technicians in our clinic do not work 17 hours on a daily basis and when the rare occassion presents itself to where such hours are necessary then they simply jump into it, roll up there sleeves and get the job done just like anyone else that runs into cases at work where the extra effort is necessary to accomplish a job well done. The techs do not work straight through but rather take breaks and do what is necessary to keep themselves fresh. And these are not amateurs at their job either. Dr. Hasson's "planters" have years of experience and are the senior most techs on his team.

 

As some have said earlier, you do not have all the facts and it is not encumbent upon our clinic to share every detail about every patient that has a session with us and every aspect of our operation so that you have those facts. In the past when we have shared our techniques/procedures/protocols our presentations have been dismissed. We have however slowly but surely over the past several years built up to have the ABILITY to perform these sessions when the patient has the right characteristics, the need and of course the desire. In the case of LL, he had performed scalp exercises diligently for six months resulting in a donor scalp that was extremely loose to put it mildly (makes my laxity look like a bongo drum) and he had a natural donor density that, according to Dr. Hasson, was something he had not seen before (130cm2 to 150cm2).

 

I suggest that next time you speak with Matt or Dr. Shapiro you ask them the same questions regarding their largest sessions and if they have as well researched this "uncharted territory". I believe that 5000 plus sized sessions are to them as 7000 plus sessions are to us so the same questions are valid, especially considering the fact that Dr. Shapiro uses different techniques than Dr. Hasson & Dr. Wong do.

 

In the end, all the research in the world cannot disqualify the testimonials, photographic documentation and overwhelmingly exhuberant results of over one hundred patients because as always the truth is in the results.

[london__lad]

John,I will continue to take medication on the advice of Dr Hasson. I have been using Proscar for one year and noticed some regrowth in the crown area, he said switching to adovart could give me some extra growth in this area and may also thicken up some of the remaining hair on top.

 

Jake, it's good to know that I have plenty if reserves if need be. I hopefully wont need to call them up but they are always there waiting if needed. My scalp dosn't really feel tight so hopefully I will regain quite a bit of laxity in time.

 

Landen, I will be taking it real easy for the next few months to try and avoid the scar from stetching. I don't work out or lift weights so hopefully this shouldn't be an issue.

[John_in_NC]

well good luck london__lad. You had a great doctor who has done huge seesions many times so you will be fine.

[london__lad]

Originally posted by John_in_NC:

well good luck london__lad. You had a great doctor who has done huge seesions many times so you will be fine.

 

Thankyou

[troy]

joe, Im sure you get tired of Everytime Hasson and Wong push the envelope you are questioned. It would certainly be a lot easier to follow the pioneers, than be the lead, but I thank you for always chiming in. The scar kinda freeked me out, but I totally agree with you, lets let the results speak for themselves, london hopefully you will continue to document your progress all the way through a year with good one month photos.