Banning Perfect Few?

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I believe that being tolerant and open to all view points no matter how much we may disagree is essential for a discussion forum to maintain credibility and accountability.

 

However, on rare occasions individuals attempt to exploit the openness of our forum to drop poison into the open well. I believe that Perfect Few has shown himself to be such a poster.

 

Fortunately it is far and few between that any poster or posts need to be removed from this forum.

 

I think Perfect Few has made his point that I should not make a good living for publishing this community, which he claims is full of shills.

 

Should we continue to let him make multiple unsubstantiated accusations, many of which are false? Or should his posting privileges now be revoked? Or should we let him continue to create topic after topic in the hopes that he will eventually run his course like any viral infection?

 

Ultimately this forum needs to focus on patient concerns. It becomes hard to do when some one is intent on creating disruption and division.

 

Of course if we ban him, Perfect Few will declare our forum morally bankrupt. He can afford not to ban us on his forum because members of this forum are the only ones visiting it. But does any one at this point really care what he thinks or writes?

 

We are a community and I think this situation should be made as a community.

 

I welcome all view points - yes - even from Mr. Imperfect Few.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I believe that being tolerant and open to all view points no matter how much we may disagree is essential for a discussion forum to maintain credibility and accountability.

 

However, on rare occasions individuals attempt to exploit the openness of our forum to drop poison into the open well. I believe that Perfect Few has shown himself to be such a poster.

 

Fortunately it is far and few between that any poster or posts need to be removed from this forum.

 

I think Perfect Few has made his point that I should not make a good living for publishing this community, which he claims is full of shills.

 

Should we continue to let him make multiple unsubstantiated accusations, many of which are false? Or should his posting privileges now be revoked? Or should we let him continue to create topic after topic in the hopes that he will eventually run his course like any viral infection?

 

Ultimately this forum needs to focus on patient concerns. It becomes hard to do when some one is intent on creating disruption and division.

 

Of course if we ban him, Perfect Few will declare our forum morally bankrupt. He can afford not to ban us on his forum because members of this forum are the only ones visiting it. But does any one at this point really care what he thinks or writes?

 

We are a community and I think this situation should be made as a community.

 

I welcome all view points - yes - even from Mr. Imperfect Few.

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by Pat - Publisher of this Community:

I believe that being tolerant and open to all view points no matter how much we may disagree is essential for a discussion forum to maintain credibility and accountability.

 

However, on rare occasions individuals attempt to exploit the openness of our forum to drop poison into the open well. I believe that Perfect Few has shown himself to be such a poster.

 

Fortunately it is far and few between that any poster or posts need to be removed from this forum.

 

I think Perfect Few has made his point that I should not make a good living for publishing this community, which he claims is full of shills.

 

Should we continue to let him make multiple unsubstantiated accusations, many of which are false? Or should his posting privileges now be revoked? Or should we let him continue to create topic after topic in the hopes that he will eventually run his course like any viral infection?

 

Ultimately this forum needs to focus on patient concerns. It becomes hard to do when some one is intent on creating disruption and division.

 

Of course if we ban him, Perfect Few will declare our forum morally bankrupt. He can afford not to ban us on his forum because members of this forum are the only ones visiting it. But does any one at this point really care what he thinks or writes?

 

We are a community and I think this situation should be made as a community.

 

I welcome all view points - yes - even from Mr. Imperfect Few.

 

By banning me Pat, you are just proving my point. You are being paid large sums of money for recommending physicians. My view is legitimate. I am about ethical practices.

 

If you don't want this, then by all means... ban me. Or perhaps get all of your shills to "vote" in banning me. The truth is still out now.

[MrJobi]

Hi Pat,

 

You know I think he just has a problem with Capitalism..

 

He makes no sense and keeps going in circles..

 

I tried to help but to no avail..

 

He must have been crazy as he called me a shill..

 

The only payments have, have gone to Dr. True for my 5017 Ht's

 

cheers

[PerfectFew]

Oh, also while your at it... why not ban Mrjb? His posts are very viral and contrary to the beliefs of many. His intent is just just to deflect the real questions.

[Tarasilk]

Pat....I know that I am still a "newbie" here, but since you are asking for input, I want to add this.

 

Whatever this person wants to think of you or this community, I have found it to be a really supportive and caring place. Obviously, the very nature of this type of issue is going to be predominantly male, but I can't think of many "men's" forums where I could have joined and been as welcomed as I have here.

 

Some of the people whom Perfect Few has called "shills" have gone out of their way to be kind to me, both on the board and in PM's. I posted for the first time after I had already selected my Doctor, so if this place was such a haven for shills I suppose there would have been no point in commenting to me at all, or answering any of my posts. Obvisously, that was not the case at all.

 

This person has been insulting to individual board members, and keeps spamming the board with essentially the SAME post over and OVER again. It's like a child asking his Mom for someting again and again in the hopes of finally getting the answer he wants to hear.

 

Since this person has shown he has nothing positive to contribute, and is only here to create negativity and disruption, I am in favor of you banning him from this site.

 

TaraSilk

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Tarasilk,

 

Thanks for your thoughtful input. I agree that the active members of this forum community are outstanding and supportive.

 

It's insulting for them to be accused by Perfect Few of being shills when in reality they are generous caring people who recieve no financial compensation.

 

I have no problem with Perfect Few openly critizing me, even when his accusations are false and malicious because I can reply to them if they are in presented in appropriate topics. But he has hijacked numerous unrelated topics and polluted these topics with misinformation that has no relevance to the topic. Like you stated, he is like a small immature child trying to gain attention with his hysterical behavior.

 

Unless he stays on topic I believe his posting privelages will need to be revoked.

[TomA]

I would say this:

 

PerfectFew HAS opened too many new topics regarding the same issue. If he agrees to stop doing that, I would not ban him.

 

PerfectFew. Your points are interesting, but you could have made them in one thread. There is no reason to open dozens of threads to address one issue. It makes it harder for us to find the information that we are looking for and more difficult for us to get responses to our questions because other threads are being pushed down too quickly.

 

In addition, it would be nice if you were a bit more courteous. You could make the same points without so much contention. Now, I must say, there are a few others on this site that are almost equally contentious when talking to people that are considering non-coalition doctors (Aquarius comes to mind, but he's not the only one), so I don't think that is a good reason to ban you.

 

As for me, I actually LIKE it when people tell me that they disagree with me as long as they: 1. Tell me the rationale that they are using, and 2. Do it politely.

[Bayer]

Pat,

 

I certainly cannot be accused of being a shill - I had my HT surgery from a non-Coalition doctor and have received nothing but a warm welcome, candid advice, and great support from you and Forum members. One of the "suspected paid", Janna, has been a wonderful source of information and encouragement as well. No argument from me with you making a buck, this is no different from anyone else that works.

 

My thought in banning PerfectFew (Goertz) is that this would provoke a retaliatory ban from the Doc's Hair Club for Men. Unsuspecting balding brothers may stumble onto this site, thinking that they are getting good advice. The criteria for this site permit a local doctor referred to as "Dr. Punch" to be part of this list. I flew halfway across the country to escape his clutches, and would hate to see others fall into the hands of this individual and "doctors" of his kind. As disruptive as this individual is, my vote is to hold the fort and let

PFew run.

 

Intelligence will prevail!

 

Bayer

[Gorpy]

I have no problem with him stating his opinion once or twice, but the disruptiveness to the board and those seeking real help has become too much. He keeps saying the same thing over and over. We already know how Pat makes money and the dues/fees etc. that physicians pay. This is publicly stated on this site. It's no secret.

 

I say ban him.

[Gorpy]

How 'bout this - pin one of his posts so that it appears at the top for a couple of weeks, with your response to it Pat. Any new disruptive posts can be deleted. If he wants to discuss real HT issues, let him.

[NervousNelly]

Pat,

 

Perfect idiot is entitled to voice his beliefs and I think that we all agree that we invite that, however, he has certainly started to overstep things with his multiple threads and attempts to discredit valued members.

 

He has said his peace and makes no attempts to substantiate his allegations with facts. I believe that if he continues to add no value to this site and is a disruption to the education process then he has to go.

 

I would leave the current threads so that his opinion remains and therefore you are not limiting freedom of speech. If others choose to read the threads they can make up their own minds. The truth always prevails.

 

NN

[hairdini]

I think as much as a perfect few has shown his purpose to be repetitive, confrontational and troublesome he should be allowed to voice his opinion. I think the forum would best be served to just ignore him and eventually he'll go away. It's obvious that this guy has a major problem with capitalism and the traditional American ways that have made this country great. If we ban his freedom of speech then we are in a way acting against those same values that make our country great. Were all pretty intelligent people on this forum and I think we can figure things out enough through our own research on what's legit and what's not.

Yes Pat you may make a lot of money, but I have also read about people on this site who may have had less then satisfactory experience with a coalition doctor. I also know that in some of these cases you have stepped in and consulted the Doctor on behalf of the unsatisfied patient. The power you have through running this website holds these doctors to a higher standard by knowing if they do less then great work they will have pressure applied to them by someone who can truly hurt their business if the problems are not rectified. I'll gladly take that kind of insurance policy over going to a Doctor who I as a single individual would be unable to have the same effect. Good job Pat and don't worry about this guy he will go away.

[the B spot]

It is one thing to have an opinion, and yet another to be proving wrong logically and through knowledge base.

 

I am very surprised at the vitriol spewed by PerfectFew, who I think at heart is pretty stand up guy.

 

However, given some of his "intimate knowledge" and overall viewpoint, I would have to believe that his relationship with Dr. Goertz is either as a paid representative, or they are involved personally.

 

We know Pat gets membership dues.

We know people have been tossed out.

We know some docs are really angry.

 

People like myself stand up for free speech always, but there needs to be something substantive to the claim put forth.

 

I would like to see him tossed because you cannot argue a point with someone who claims to know "everything" without proof and at the same time believes Dr. Goertz is one of the top 3 docs in the U.S.

 

I think that is enough to ban anyone, IMO.

 

Anyway, Pat do what you want-- I suggest you save him from the ass-kicking he is going to continue to receive here.

 

Now THAT is being a good samaritan.

 

J

[Jotronic]

I don't think he should be banned. Seriously, anyone with a grain of common sense can see what his intentions are, to stir it up. Another is to take attention off of the original thread regarding the new site he moderates. Cause enough problems here with multitudes of new posts, stating the same thing over and over aggressively serves to only distract from the intent of his site, to take the power away from the patients.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Pat and all...

 

I do not believe in banning people in general...but I have a tendency to agree with Pat here.

 

PerfectFew has made his false claims and has been asked to provide proof. Instead of providing proof he persists in redundant posts stating the same thing over and over again.

 

I would NOT want to see any of the threads posted so far deleted...in fact, I think if anything, it is proof of how ridiculous his redundant unfounded claims are.

 

The interesting thing is...

 

Allowing his posts to continue may indeed expedite what we already know will be accomplished...the shutting down of the other site. At the same time, how much of a distraction from the intent of this community are we going to allow before enough is enough?

 

I think an ultimatum in in order...

 

Either PerfectFew

 

1. Provides these "historical documents" as proof to his claims of Dr. Goertz (and/or other physicians) being removed based on fees ONLY on this public forum

 

2. Publicly apologizes for his false testimonies.

 

If either of these conditions are met, he is allowed to stay.

 

If he fails to do either of these two things...which I think are COMPLETELY FAIR...then I believe he should be banned for trying to act like a computer virus.

 

Bill

[YoungGuy]

This forum has been a tremendous help for me over the years it took me to get my research done. If it wasn't for it, I'd have probably gone to Bosley. Pat, thanks for running this community.

 

If PerfectFew provides some kind of backup for his accusations, great. Otherwise he's overstepping his boundaries.

 

On the other hand, you don't want to remove all the bad seeds from a community, without yeast the bread won't grow. I wouldn't ban him. Don't forget that he's just one person with an agenda, any post he makes will be outweighted by folks who know better.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I appreciate everyones above input. But it is important to distinquish between posters with valid and sincere differnces and a poster with malicious intent who is willing to lie and malign others to achieve their agenda.

 

I knew Perfect Few was presenting misinformation on multiple occasions/posts. But only after searching my archived emails was I able to find the written evidence (see below).

 

So do we allow a proven weed to take root in our garden and choke it or do we pull it out? I think of a forum as being much like a garden that requires cultivation, nuturing and some times weeding.

 

I think it's time for this gardner to do some weeding, while leaving his previous posts/points in place.

 

If after a time out Perfect Few agrees to respect our forum rules and stay on topic, I will consider restoring his posting privelages.

 

This whole episode with Perfect Few and the good ol' boys Network site he promotes is just the tip of the iceberg. I've been battling the underlying hostility that many physicians have for this community for years. It's great to see it nakedly visible for all to see online.

 

The truth about Mr. Perfect's false allegations:

 

On multiple topics posted on this forum Perfect Few has accused me of lying when I told the truth that I removed Dr. Goertz due to concerns about the quality of his work.

 

Yet Perfect Few had no evidence to provide. Of course, how could he since he was not involved in my decision to remove Dr. Goertz. By his own account Perfect Few is only a patient of Dr. Goertz who presumably does not read Dr. Goertz's emails.

 

However, I do have proof. I keep all my emails and I spent time this evening searching my correspondence with Dr. Goertz. Below is an email I sent to Dr. Goertz on February 27th of 2005 notifying him that I would no longer continue recommending him on our community due to quality concerns.

 

On this forum Perfect Few wrote -

 

 

quote:

 

 

This is not true. I asked about a doctor on this forum, and Pat quickly chimed in saying he didn't meet the "standards", which was a bold-faced lie. The doctor in question refused to renew his membership because the fees were basically extortion. I feel sorry for you that you really believe this site is about "patient advocacy".

 

Perfect Few repeated this misinformation in yet another one of his posts:

 

Complete lies. The bigger the lie, the more people will believe it. I feel sorry for you because you clearly have no soul. You consistently make sales calls to Dr. Goertz. That is all they are. When he refused to renew his membership (i.e. pay your extortion) you delisted him. That is the truth. Can you give me ONE EXAMPLE of a patient whose results were not good? You are doing exactly what you say you don't, disguised by a thin veil of the lie.

 

Because you didn't visit his clinic, nor meet any of his patients, how can you make such statements? I can see why he didn't want to PAY YOU to visit his clinic. He is an ethical person. Something that is not natural for you. You sold your soul to the devil, and your time has come.

 

 

But the dishonesty of his false allegations is easily apparent when my correspondence with Dr. Goertz is read (see below):

 

Dr. Goertz's response to my email and my follow up reply are also included.

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Pat - Hair Transplant Network [mailto:pat@hairtransplantnetwork.com]

Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 5:19 PM

To: Brian Goertz

Subject: Dr. Goertz, We will not be able to renew you in the Coalition or in the Hair Transplant Network

 

Dr. Goertz,

 

I have not received the immediate post op photos that I requested and therefore will not be able to renew your membership in the Coalition or continue recommending you on the Hair Transplant Network. As I mentioned in my previous email the standards for inclusion in the Coalition are now higher and all those renewing were asked to submit these post op photos to be considered for renewal.

 

I'm also concerned by the post op photos I saw posted on our forum by the contest winner you did. In my opinion the incisions are too large and far apart and invasive on the scalp and do not meet our current standards for membership. I have attached this photo for your reference and also a photo showing the type of immediate post op results we expect of Coalition members.

 

You will note the small minimally invasive incisions that are closely placed to allow for good cosmetic density after one session.

I hope that you take this feed back in a constructive light. The bar for excellent hair restoration has moved considerably higher in the past two years and our editorial content and recommendations need to reflect these new realities.

 

For now I will not be able to present you on either the Coalition web sites or the Hair Transplant Network.com.

 

If you feel that your patient's posted photos are not representative of your work, now or in the future, please feel free to send them to me and we will reconsider presenting you again on our sites.

 

Thank you for your past support and best wishes for your practice in the future.

 

Patrick Hennessey

 

Dr. Goertz's reply:

 

I am offended that you would cancel me as a recommended physician with such a paucity of correspondence at the 11th hour! You already knew before this posting your new criteria, why was I not informed?

 

If we are truly a "Coalition of Independent Physicians" should we not be judged by our peers? I am completely comfortable by having my work and results judged by them. Would it not be more appropriate for other members of the coalition to be involved in this all important step?

 

As I discussed with you when you first invited me to join and you requested to observe my surgery, it made me uncomfortable. It still is not appropriate for a lay person. I would invite any of my colleagues to observe me and have trained others as well.

 

Again please review the attached photos. If you would like to see more please let me know the size of files you can accept and I will send them.

 

I truly feel my work is second to none, yet try to improve my techniques daily. I have learned much from my colleagues look forward to continued sharing of ideas with them as we try to improve the field of hair transplantation for our patients.

 

I sincerely hope you find this helpful,

 

PS. I did leave you a voicemail on your cell phone this morning but have not heard from you.

Please respond by March 1st.

 

My follow up reply:

 

Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2005 23:46:57 -0800 (PST)

From: Patrick Hennessey

Subject: Re: , We will not be able to renew you in the Coalition or in the Hair Transplant Network

To:

 

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with more information about your surgical philosophy. I know that it is difficult to have a "lay person" make judgments about your work. You are certainly not the first to voice this concern.

 

However, ultimately it is always the lay person who makes the final determination on their choice of treatment and physician. Ideally their decision will be based upon information gathered during a medical consultation with a qualified physician and from comparing notes and experiences with actual patients, on and offline.

 

Today many potential patients look to the Internet as a resource for gathering and sharing credible information. We strive to serve hair loss sufferers by helping to educate them about procedures and physicians who we think are in their best interest. We are careful to not claim to have definative information. We simply offer those visiting our sites the best information we can in an open environment in which they can share information.

 

I have privately observed dozens of surgical procedures first hand in clinics over the past seven years. I've also attended over a dozen hair restoration conferences and workshops. While this does not qualify me to do surgery, it has given me a solid grounding in what constitutes state of the art surgery.

 

I may be wrong in choosing for now to not present you on our sites. But I would rather error on the conservative side than endorse a physician I need to learn more about to confidently endorse.

 

I have made the mistake of endorsing physicians who later did not meet my expectations or those of the patients that found them on our sites. I have found this scenario to be much more troubling than not promoting a physician I'm not completely confident with.

 

I did take your suggestion to heart to gather a second opinion from a hair restoration physician who I trust. This physician was shown the two post op photos of your work anonymously and asked to evaluate them. Like me, he found the incisions to be more invasive than ideally needed and the grafts to be larger than necessary for a truly refined state of the art hair transplant.

 

Much has changed over the past few years and today surgeons are doing work that they would not have imagined just a couple of years ago. I believe that you are a sincere and ethical physician and that you may well be doing truly outstanding surgeries in the near future.

 

I will remain open to learning more about your ever evolving surgery and results in the hope that one day we will be confident in promoting you on our web communities.

 

I hope you understand my need to error on the safe side at least for now.

 

Thank you for your past support. I look forward to the day when we will be able to collaborate once again.

 

Patrick Hennessey, Publisher of the Hair Transplant Network, the Hair Restoration Network and the Hair Loss Learning Center

[Bill - Seemiller]

Well it's good to know that more effort can now be made on helping members that seek counsel rather than debating with someone who has no interest in the truth.

 

Personally...I would have given him ONE chance after Pat provided proof (though doubtuful it would happen) to apologize for his accusations. However, once the other site crumbes and maybe with time, he will be willing to do so.

 

In the meantime...to quote Pat...

 

Onward and Upwards!

 

Bill

[Bayer]

Good balanced approach Pat.

 

Leaving previous posts/points in place and providing a time out with a potential for return seems quite sensible.

 

Aren't emails great? Nothing beats the ability and haul out the evidence.

 

Wonder how long your posts and those of members of our Forum will survive on the Docs' Network?

 

Bayer

[hairbank]

Pat-

 

I want to go on record in support of your removal of Perfect Few.

 

It's one thing to have a differing opinion on how to deal with hair loss, or what Doctor you think provides the best result, whether to take Propecia or Avodart...............it's completely another to come in with an agenda to discredit a site, the information it shares or its posters.

 

Everyone has their own opinion. Mine is that Perfect Few's comments disrupt our efforts in helping people with loss and it is very evident he had a hidden (now uncovered) agenda.

 

Good Riddance!

[MrJobi]

I agree 100% with the ban

 

I pride myself on being extremely objective and welcome input even if it is contrary to my opinion:

 

However, when someone purposely is trying to disturb the forum without logic, reason, or tact, it is time for them to go.. This does not mention the excessive insults PerfectFew made on serveral members including myself..

 

I think what it comes down to is the following question:

 

"Is this person trying to help people"

 

in this case, the answer is no. his intentions were to insult Pat and post slander without any ryme or reason. This has nothing to do with his idea's and everything to do with his lack of decorum and manners.

 

In short, he was a virus and had no honest intention to help people with hairloss rather, shoot personal attacks to everyone he came in contact with.

[newhairguy]

Wow! I go away for a month or two, and all hell breaks loose! lol!

 

Not into banning anyone, myself, BUT... I have to say that on first logging in here, i saw these threads from "perfect few" and started reading there. I didnt catch on IMMEDIATELY, though my suspicions were up pretty quick. Even newer newbies than me might not see it as fast, or at all... could prove harmful. I hate banning, but sometimes u have to do what u really dont want to do.

[MrJobi]

Hi Michaell

 

I agree with freedom of speech too BUT when a member starts abusive accusations and calling everyone a "shill" without any evidence, then it is in line to ban him..

 

The purpose of this site is to help people and express your opinion in a professional manner. Not to act like a psychotic child making false accusations

 

The ban is well in bounds!

[Bill - Seemiller]

Michaell,

 

I agree with you...normally.

 

However, the problem with PerfectFew was that he was starting numerous threads posting the same false accusations over and over again. It became exhausting keeping up and refuting his argument. The threads weren't stopping and he became like a computer virus. Only two solutions were possible:

 

1. Remove his posting rights from the community

2. Keep refuting his arguments over and over again

 

Ignoring his posts might also work, however, ignoring them without refuting them may lead newer members to think he is right since nobody is disputing it.

 

Anyway...the GOOD news is...his posts have remained. Nobody has deleted them...so clearly anyone can go back and few the discussion. But once a discussion is done, it's done, IMO.

 

Bill