Regular Member TCK Posted November 18, 2003 Regular Member Share Posted November 18, 2003 Here is the link: http://www.hair-restoration-info.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=5696015661&f=3466060861&m=7756002861 How I read this is as follows: 1. FUE is much worse way to proceed as if you wanted 3000 FU HT, you would have to have 3000 MICRO PUNCH GRAFTS On the sides of your head. What the HELL is that. Looks like torture to me. 2. FUE can result in greater risk of transection of remaining Donor Hairs. 3. FUE is MORE INVASIVE as more skin is penetrated. 4. Good FU HT doctors that use strips don't use the MULTIBLADED knives of the TORTURE CHAMBER HAIR MILLS OF THE PAST. 5. LEAVE JOTRONIC THE HELL ALONE!!! He has done a whole lot more for me and and many others than most other posters. 6. FUE using 1mm punch grafts still can leave you looking like you were dumped upside down in a chicken pen and had a buch of hens peck at you. 7. If a strip width of 1 cm is not exceeded and a patient waits atleast 1 year between procedures, assuming that they have normal scalp laxity and no preexisting conditions and can follow postop rules correctly, the chances of a pencil like scar are highly probable in my view. Just my opinion, TCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member TCK Posted November 18, 2003 Author Regular Member Share Posted November 18, 2003 Here is the link: http://www.hair-restoration-info.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=5696015661&f=3466060861&m=7756002861 How I read this is as follows: 1. FUE is much worse way to proceed as if you wanted 3000 FU HT, you would have to have 3000 MICRO PUNCH GRAFTS On the sides of your head. What the HELL is that. Looks like torture to me. 2. FUE can result in greater risk of transection of remaining Donor Hairs. 3. FUE is MORE INVASIVE as more skin is penetrated. 4. Good FU HT doctors that use strips don't use the MULTIBLADED knives of the TORTURE CHAMBER HAIR MILLS OF THE PAST. 5. LEAVE JOTRONIC THE HELL ALONE!!! He has done a whole lot more for me and and many others than most other posters. 6. FUE using 1mm punch grafts still can leave you looking like you were dumped upside down in a chicken pen and had a buch of hens peck at you. 7. If a strip width of 1 cm is not exceeded and a patient waits atleast 1 year between procedures, assuming that they have normal scalp laxity and no preexisting conditions and can follow postop rules correctly, the chances of a pencil like scar are highly probable in my view. Just my opinion, TCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member TCK Posted November 18, 2003 Author Regular Member Share Posted November 18, 2003 Scroll down on link to Dr. Andrews rebutall to the Woods plant on that link.... TCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member arfy Posted November 18, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted November 18, 2003 That thread is almost two years old now. Many doctors have revised their thinking about FUE during that time (and I suspect this group includes Dr. McAndrews as well. I'd bet his current opinion on FUE is different than what you dug up). I can certainly post some FUE and strip excision donor site pictures, if you want to talk about what is more invasive. Let the public decide. I think strip excision is more invasive HANDS DOWN. I don't want to get drawn into an anti-strip rant. But your comments on FUE are lacking in logic and short on facts, and actually so was Dr. McAndrews' post, too. In fact Dr. McAndrews had no direct knowledge of FUE when he wrote that, and was commenting on what he THOUGHT that FUE was, and not what it actually is. A lot of scientists used to think the world was flat, too. A whole lot of doctors are coming around and expressing interest in FUE, over the past 2 years. Including Hasson and Wong. So you are behind the curve here. Your comment about the multibladed knife was good, it's too bad you can't recognize that the FUE procedure also represents progress over the old methods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member TCK Posted November 18, 2003 Author Regular Member Share Posted November 18, 2003 I still have not seen conclusive photos of no scarring with FUE method. How can their be no scarring when punch grafting thousands of FU's out of the side and back of your head. I can understand how their is no scarring or minimal scarring (temporary postop redness) with the planting the FU's using the lateral slit approach which is something similiar to a paper cuts, but the FUE is still very invasive, can cause alot of shock fallout, transection of remaining donor hairs issues, and is extremely expensive. But please don't tell me that FUE is not an invasive approach. If the strip excision is done correctly, the pencil thin scar is something one can live with. If and that's a big if they can perform the FUE with a PUNCH GRAFT less than say .8mm well maybe you may have something. But if the size of the punch grafts become too small, you run a greater risk of damaging or transecting the FU that you are removing. Maybe in the end some will choose using both methods where they get the meat of their transplant using strip and touchups using FUE. Just my opinion, TCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member baldbozo Posted November 19, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted November 19, 2003 jotronic, you have seen FUE work from Dr Woods up close and in person. Im asking you because you seem fair minded & the original poster referenced you. Can you give us an analysis of what you saw in the donor area. Did it look like a chicken had pecked their head like Dr Andrews described? would you classify it as 30 year old technology like Dr Andrews did? esp. compared to what these 2 patients, their other doctors did to them. which was more visible? Jotronic, for example, can you give your input and tell us how the donor area of doctor woods did with poet , compared to NHI work. (on the same head) You saw both on one head, Which one was visible? and by how far was it more visible 100,000% ? To be fair, As far as undetectability in the donor area is concerned would you classify it as a "10" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vocor1 Posted November 19, 2003 Share Posted November 19, 2003 In my mind, going through both FIT/FUE and FU-strip, hands down strip is more invasive. They are cutting a big chunk of skin out that will have to be trimmed and such. Mainly, you have to be very, very careful to help make sure that the strip closes and heals well. Getting the strip really feels like surgery (no kidding, eh?), but FIT/FUE did not to me. I didn't lift weights for 6 weeks post strip and still the scar widened some. Same story on the revision. FIT I lifted 10 days post op. The tightness was not there. GRANTED . . . I will have MUCH better comparision data shortly. My FIT session was only 112 grafts to 2205 via strip. My next FIT session will be about 800 grafts. I hope that provides better comparision. I tend to side with arfy on this one. My overall opinion is do the strip if you need to move 2000+ grafts in a sitting. Do FIT/FUE if you are looking for 500-1500 grafts and can afford its increased cost. That is my current opinion. vocor1 Knowledge is Power -- If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared. -- The truth only matters if you know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member TCK Posted November 19, 2003 Author Regular Member Share Posted November 19, 2003 One Centimetre strip is not a big chunk when you consider that many get much larger strips 1.5-2 cm. One Doctor said it best and I paraphrase: When one centimetre strip is not exceeded and one waits atleast 9 months to 1 year between procedures the results are almost MAGICAL. The key in FU Strip surgery is not to get too GREEDY! Just my opinion,] TCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member poet Posted November 19, 2003 Regular Member Share Posted November 19, 2003 Both are surgical procedures and this should not be played down. However strip carries more risk. The incision is deeper and nerve damage, disfigurement and wide scarring can result. With reduced laxity, as invariably occurs with strip, the risk of nerve damage rises as your head readjusts to the loss of tissue, the underlying tissue and nerves may not heal and lay as as nature intended. With FUE there are no documented cases of nerve damage. Peripherial transection in the wrong hands is the main risk. With the proper size punch and technique scarring is near invisible with even a buzz cut. The logistics of getting a transplant in the average man's life make FUE inconvienent for many. It is more expensive and time consuming. Most likely there is room for both, but though the dollar amount of strip is less $$ you pay in other ways. Niether is perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member TCK Posted November 19, 2003 Author Regular Member Share Posted November 19, 2003 "Most likely there is room for both, but though the dollar amount of strip is less $$ you pay in other ways. Niether is perfect." I guess that is what it really comes down to, neither is perfect. Regarding the strips, alot depends on keeping those hairy bacon strips 1cm or less. I think if someone got a little too greedy on their first strip could this reduce the number of future strip procedures? Also is anyone aware of whether or not the scalp can restore it's laxity IF IT HAS EVER BEEN EXCEEDED? And if so HOW LONG WOULD IT TAKE? The reason I ask this is that for burn patients I once saw a documentary on them removing healthy skin from other parts of their body, and stretching the heck out of that skin before using it too cover the destroyed surface area. I wonder how our scalp skin is a whole lot different than the skin on other parts of our body? The reason I am thinking along these lines is the number of strips Jotronic has been able to harvest from his donor area. I guess in the end atleast FUE does offer an alternative, but one that definately has it's own unique set of problems. Just my opinion, TCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member arfy Posted November 19, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted November 19, 2003 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I guess that is what it really comes down to, neither is perfect. Neither is perfect, but in my opinion the FUE procedure is a clear improvement over strip excsion. Poet just said that the real downside of FUE is it's price, and you agreed. Maybe you need to think the issues over a little more, before making these sweeping statements like "FUE is more invasive"? You seem confused. If the only downside of FUE is it's price, then there is no compelling reason to get a strip. This is elective cosmetic surgery, so if you can't afford to do it right, you shouldn't do it. Also, you said a strip is "not a big hunk of flesh" especially when it is kept below 1 cm tall. The average strip is 1.2 cm, from what I have read. I would be happy to post photos of a strip excision donor area and an FUE donor area, and let the public decide, but you don't seem interested in that. The truth is that most people are incredibly turned off, when they see what a strip surgery actually consists of. Finally, don't bring Jotronic's donor area into this, he's already said he's not the typical patient because he has extraordinary laxity. It would be like me pointing to a guy who had 300 FUE grafts done, and using him as an example. The facts aren't on your side, but please, let's keep discussing the FUE/strip comparison. The more you know about FUE, the better it seems. Let me know if I should post those strip excision pics, so we can see if it is "less invasive than FUE", like you claimed. I wonder if you even know what actually happens during a strip surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member steve21 Posted November 19, 2003 Regular Member Share Posted November 19, 2003 thanks for the ongoing feedback on strip vs fut (right joe?). i guess i still have yet to see as good of pics of ht coming from fut as from strips all the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Shed Harris Posted November 19, 2003 Regular Member Share Posted November 19, 2003 "If the only downside of FUE is its price, then there is no compelling reason to get a strip." Arfy, I have read a number of your posts and must say that you provide a lot of insightful and thought provoking points - my hat's off to you (oops and a few hairs too). I don't wish to challenge the quote above, just offer MY slant in favor of strip as my first procedure. As a prequel to the following, I am 40, been noticeably thinning for 10 years and a NW3+. Maybe it's a character flaw of mine, but I've always been a practical person who enjoys getting the most bang for my buck. I also do a LOT of research before I let go of any wampum this large. Granted an HT is not like buying a car - there are extreme lifelong physical and aesthetic issues to consider. However price to value must be a consideration as well. The consultations I've had put me at about 2800 FU's for reasonable results. Conservatively that's about $10,000 for a strip and $22,000 for FUE. Now, all of my research in here shows me that for $10,000: 1) I can have a strip procedure with the best strip doctor in the world - bang! I can have an FUE procedure with the best FUE doctor in the world - bang! 2) I can receive 2600 FU's in ONE strip procedure - bang! I can receive 1300 FU's in TWO FUE procedures - phhht 3) I will end up with a scar from a strip procedure - phhht I will end up without a scar from a FUE procedure - bang! 4) I can expect reasonable results based on the number FU's and on similar and well documented strip procedures - bang! I can expect halfway reasonable results based SOLEY on the number of FU's and very little results documentation - phhht Certainly, strip provides the most bang for my buck. For me the primary difference of strip vs. FUE is getting over the "drama" of scar vs. no scar. The well documented results of CURRENT strip procedures illustrate to me that there is an excellent chance of reasonable results and minimal scarring. This is compelling enough for me - see you in March Dr. Wong! Chaos, panic and disorder...my work here is done. Chaos, panic and disorder...my work here is done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member bverotti Posted November 20, 2003 Senior Member Share Posted November 20, 2003 Hey Arfy, I would be interested in seeing good strip pics. If you have some please post, thx ! Consultant-co owner Prohairclinic (FUE only) in Belgium, Dr. De Reys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidson21 Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 Can anyone tell me whom the best doctors to see would be for an FUE procedure? I'm trying to investigate as many as possible. Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I had both fue and strip and here is the comparision. I had, 2K grafts with strip, 600 with FIT strip:Have a 3 mm wide scar fit: Can't locate any scar even 1 week after surgery. strip: Was in agony for atleast 2 weeks. fit: Did not need a single painkiller pill! strip: Could not comfortable sleep on my back for 2-3 weeks. fit: slept on my back on second night (although I was told not to) My opinion, strip: INVASIVE fit: Nope. I agree with the above posters that fue is good for small to medium size procedures and the only drawback is price, which I hope will come down and competetion and techniques improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member backnats Posted November 28, 2003 Regular Member Share Posted November 28, 2003 Hey Hairy, where did u go for your FUE procedure and how much did it cost? I've had strip before. I'm from Addison btw. Let it Grow. Let it Grow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vocor1 Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I have to agree with hairy's general assessment of FIT/FUE versus strip. vocor1 Knowledge is Power -- If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared. -- The truth only matters if you know about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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