NegativeNorwood

Agree with @Archan, with that budget you can pay for Feriduni or Mwamba (both very skilled at temples and with high quality pictures to show their work) to name a few. I don't see the point of travelling to India unless you live there already or really, really want to have your HT done by Dr Sethi or Dr Bansai (both great professionals btw).

You are using non sense to prove your theory. Cruise is an outlier, but you don't need to be a man to bald. You have to have a pee pee to be a man (a biological one at least). Women bald too.

Okay, you win. This is how Brad Pitt looks like when he takes out the wig once he arrives at the trailer park where he lives:

@XanaduBtw, what differences a man from a kid (or a woman) is not hair, but the bones and skeletal frame: A feminine hairline is not going to transform a guy with masculine bone structure into a female: And a masculine hairline won't turn a 15 year old female into an adult male (Shiloh has exactly the same hairline as his father, Brad Pitt): You live in Son Goku's cloud if you truly believe a single word of what you wrote.

Couldn't help but laugh a bit when I read "that is what it means to be a man"...so you are telling me this 60 year old individual is not a man to you? That's a new level of coping tbh. See, some people have good genetics, in addition of taking care of themselves. If the individual above looks like a woman (or a kid) to you...all the power to you, be happy in your own bubble.

I see it clearly. Norwood 2 is balding, just a little bit, but it is. It gets often called mature hairline, as if it wasn't a consequence of balding. That's the point.

Perfection. Enjoy that hairline!

I don't agree. "Average" is misleading, 5'10 would be short in Netherlands and tall in Peru, for example, and as such one person that reads "average height" would understand 6'1 (dutch reader), and the other 5'5 (peruvian reader). There's a huge difference in that. People outside the hairloss community knows how to read, and they can learn about the Norwood scale like everyone else here instead of using potentially misleading but more palatable at first terms that will lead to confusion once they gather a little bit of knowledge ("you are not balding, you have a mature hairline" and the man with a Norwood 2 thinking "that doesn't make sense, I have less hair than before"). Those terms may seem like a good "gateway" or an easy way to explain hair loss at first, but IMO in the long run they do more harm than good compared to understanding the Norwood scale first.

They would have the same hairline if they were Walmart cashiers and not Hollywood stars. I've seen plenty of 60+ year old people with hairlines like that in my life.

Thanks for your invaluable input. I hope your Norwood level is as low as your reading comprehension skills 😔

No no, it's not subjective. It's the same with a different name because those two people are in two different mental situations, one of them chose to cope because it may fit his mental health better in the long run, and the other chose to call it Norwood 2 because he doesn't care or at least can handle being honest with himself.

Sure, but hair transplant procedures won't stagnate the next 30 years. That argument is valid for today, you don't know what we will have on hand in 10 or 20 years, like you can't tell if someone will bald more or not. Also you can always wear a hairpiece behind the transplanted hairline, so is not like it's over if the worst happens: https://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/topic/58091-repair-case-using-a-combined-ht-and-hair-system-dr-taleb-barghouthi-vertex-hair-clinic/

Oh, the usual "I'm old and I'm right" phrases. See, rules are short (to be remembered easily), and so are exceptions. An accurate statement would be: "Young men remeber the rules and the exceptions easily, because they are fresh and alert. Old men are prone to senility and usually forget the rules and exceptions, but to not admit they are wrong, they usually make the exception the rule to fit their argument".

You only prove my point with the Patrick Stewart example. Those terms are generalizations and are not accurate. It would be much better to call the hairline by the norwood scale and hairloss pattern. Is it less palatable at first read? Yes, but at least doesn't lead to confusions and is accurate. I'm aware of that. Hairline indentations are a male dimorphic feature, as no hairline is completely flat. No indentation is a feminine dimorphic feature. It doesn't have anything to do with hairloss pattern, because it is the hairline shape you are born with.

Thanks for the in depth explanation, couldn't have said it better (because I don't have that much knowledge). Agree 100% with you. I think it's because most hair transplant clinics don't know how to transplant temples correctly, which are needed for a perfect hairline. If they tried to, the sloppiness of the work will show off against the rest of the natural hairline, thus "your hairline is age appropiate" is a very convenient excuse for them to continue that way IMO.

I understand what you say, but IMO the terms give room to lots of misunderstandings. Like, people getting a "conservative" norwood 2 hairline thinking they have a full head of hair, when in reality what they reached is an acceptable compromise (a hairline that looks normal for someone their age, not a Norwood 1 full head of hair). I feel that most of the time, those terms are used to stop low Norwood (let's say 2 or even 3) patients to get an improved hairline, even when they are 30+ years old and responded well to medication for long periods of time. If you read many threads here, they often give the impression that only people that would need 3000+ grafts need a hair transplant (to arrive at a Norwood 2 btw), that's the reason why I made this thread, to vent a little bit and express my opinion about it.

Hairline recession is balding, because hairs are lost. Not going to get into an argument about it tho, the point is, Cavill lost hair. He doesn't have a full head of hair anymore. Cruise and Pitt are what top tier hair genetics look like for a white person, that's true. But they serve as good examples that prove "mature" or "juvenile" hairline make no sense per se. You are right, just removed "petition" from the thread's title.

Can still wear a hairpiece to cover the rest of the hair if he wants too in a worst case scenario. Or have a good donor area, top tier surgeon and still get it covered (see Zarev cases).

There's no such a thing as a mature, juvenile or age appropiate hairline, you are either balding or not. None of those terms make sense, they are just a cope. How do you explain people like Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise, who at 60 years old naturally have "juvenile" hairlines? (and no, they don't wear hairpieces and didn't have transplants done) Answer: their hairline is not juvenile or age appropiate, simply put, they didn't bald. Let's take a look at Henry Cavill, who's around Norwood 2 at 40 years old: Is that age appropiate? No, he's balding, just slowly and less than the average man. This is how his hairline looked like before starting balding: I understand that many people is not fortunate enough to reach Norwood 0 after many transplants, many of them have to be happy with reaching Norwood 3 (which is a huge improvement over being Norwood 6 or 7, don't get me wrong)...but calling Norwood 2 "age appropiate" and think about it as a full head of hair is a huge cope and complete nonsense. In fact, I've observed cases where people that doesn't have temples but is Norwood 1.5-2 get rejected by clinics for a hair transplant with this senseless argument (your hairline is age appropiate)...I think in reality, their true answer is "we are not skilled enough to do temple work, so we say your hairline is age appropiate instead". I also see the argument of a Norwood 0-1 hairline looking unnatural in a 30+ years old person...it's unusual, not unnatural. Calling it unnatural makes no sense (see the Tom Cruise/Brad Pitt examples above). This is the same as people calling supermodels and lead actors unnatural looking, they are just not used to see good looking people on average so they cope with "that looks uncanny" instead to feel better about themselves. I believe the terms age appropiate, juvenile and mature hairline do more harm than good in the long run, as they are misinformation.

Consult with better doctors who do temple points regularly, like Feriduni or Mwamba (or Couto if you can wait 2 years for consultation). Temples are the hardest to get right in a hair transplant so most doctors chicken out as they don't have the necessary skills to pull out a natural result. Good luck with your search, temple points are very important for framing the forehead and face, so they'll be a great improvement to your already great hair. Just choose top level doctors who do temples regularly to consult with, your average "good enough, recommended" doctor won't help you as you already discovered. Btw, point two is a huge cope, you can still get more transplants to match the density. Also, there's no such a thing as an age appropiate or juvenile hairline, you are either balding or not...people like Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise naturally have perfect hairlines at 60 years old. "Age appropiate" is euphemism for balding, and "juvenile" is euphemism for not balding.

Will get on oral minoxidil (and oral finasteride) soon, but I'm still doubtful if it will achieve the results I want (my eyebrows always were very sparse, and I want them much fuller and denser than ever), so I'm gathering info about eyebrow transplants in the meantime in case I need it despite using oral minoxidil.

Elite level work. Agree with you, that's how every clinic has to present their cases. No excuses. Hats off to you for your honesty and talent. Btw do you also perform eyebrow transplants?

He did, just look at this: https://donorbox.org/dr-taleb-barghouthi?language=es&t=donor_wall#info You are the GOAT, words can't describe your greatness. A true hero.

@FUECLINIC Does Dr. Mwamba perform eyebrow transplants currently?

Bumping this thread. Interested in knowing if Dr Mwamba does eyebrow transplants too. EDIT: apparently he does https://hairtransplantnetwork.com/dr-patrick-mwamba "Dr. Mwamba also specializes in repair cases, scar reduction, eyebrow reconstruction and BHT (body hair transplantation - transferring body hair follicles to balding areas of the scalp) when appropriate." It would be nice to get a confirmation from him to be 100% sure. I've read that Couto did eyebrow transplants on the spanish forum (decade old posts), but when I asked his clinic on IG they said that he doesn't perform them atm. The same could happen with Mwamba, as I haven't seen eyebrow transplant mentioned on his website.