Leftwithrope

Hey guys,

Not sure if anyone has posted this here before, but a study conducted late last year seems to prove that oral minoxidil 5mg once daily is vastly superior to our usual methods of treating hair loss (minoxidil foam/liquid, 1mg finasteride, 0.5mg dut). What do you guys think?

 Link: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13555-020-00448-x#:~:text=Oral minoxidil is an antihypertensive,AGA) is receiving increasing attention.

I've personally tried oral minoxidil and the hair growth from it was astounding - every hair on my scalp became thicker and healthier. I was forced to stop because covid-19 stopped orders from shipping out of India and I suffered a brutal shed. Will be jumping on it again.

Regards,

Sean

6 hours ago, Kraistoff said:

@Leftwithropehello , not sure as it’s hard to tell , although haven’t lost more hair and I feel that my frontal third is denser; but of course I did have a hair transplant 4 months ago ! 
 

Cool, you might want to look at the area behind your hair transplants to see if dut did any work. Any sides so far?

Hey @Kraistoff, could you let us know how the progress is so far. I'm anxious to find out too.

21 minutes ago, LondonRamen said:

Only a tiny bit, as more of my minaturised hairs thickened up near my temples to provide a better 'illusion' as you put it. Probably only noticeable to afficionados on this forum as opposed to joe public.

Honestly, I think regrowing hair in any significant amount on medication is for the rare few. For most of us, all they do is thicken up our minaturised hairs and perhaps add a bit of extra 'peach fuzz' for better illusion of density. If you're hoping to go down by an extra norwood you would be one of the lucky few. I believe medication regimes work best when your expectations are it halts further loss and thickens up what you have.

Of course you could go the full transgender route and nuke nearly every androgenic hormone in your body for significant growth, but I have the feeling that is not what you want based on your OP

I'm actually looking to thicken up the thin miniaturised hairs, not so much looking for regrowth on bare scalp. Right now the hairs are weak and don't have much weight and bulk hen grown out. 

Am definitely not going the transgender route but might consider taking an even lower dose of oral minoxidil then what I've been on before if I need that extra push.

Cheers!

18 minutes ago, champybaby said:

It is very difficult to find accurate information on dut. I was on fin for about 7ish years. Zero sides. Switched to dut nearly a year ago. Only side I think I have is facial hair grows somewhat slower, but I don't mind that at all.

Generally speaking, if you can handle fin you can handle dut, which leading doctors have described to me as "more potent." A lot of people have "sides" because it's in their head, which is why I recommend taking it at night before bed versus first thing in the morning — it's out of your head that way (plus, if you pitch a tent ... you have no sides lol).

While both of these drugs will slow down hair loss, the vast majority of people taking either drug will see a decrease in efficacy over time.

In terms of improvement, I'm unsure. I began taking dut after experiencing my second round of accelerated hair loss; first round was about 8 years ago, which is when I hopped on fin. The second round began attacking my vertex and crown; I had made significant gains in both these areas when I started taking fin + rogaine 8 years ago.

I believe things have stabilized since now after being on dut for a year. I imagine there will be a round 3 of accelerated hair loss a few years from now. Hopefully not.

I absolutely agree with you on the lack of information regarding dut on the internet.

Could you share a bit about how one should go about transitioning from fin to dut? I heard of something called a loading phase and am curious at to whether there is any need to do that.

Well, if meds don't work, there is always the option of a hair transplant

5 minutes ago, LondonRamen said:

Yea, i use 1mg finasteride on the other days where I don't use duta. Was on pure fin 1mg a day 3/4 years before that and basically same as you. Stabillised hair loss and slight change in consistency of semen that levelled out after a while (expected because finasteride affects prostate size).

Edit: yeah, the gains are good, very mild regrowth. But I was more after stronger stabillization of my current hairs than regrowth to prepare for my hair transplant.

How noticeable were the gains from dutasteride for you as compared to finasteride? Finasteride has definitely thickened up the miniaturized hairs in the area behind my transplants, but it's still not very cosmetically viable and I'm hoping dutasteride can be the solution here. 

Good luck with your transplant! I also had one done in 2018 and you can see my results in the last page of the 'Hair Transplants are an Illusion of Density" thread.

21 minutes ago, giegnosiganoe said:

Finasteride for 6 months, dutasteride for 1 year. No notable side effects from either of them. No regrowth on either of them (difficult to tell as a mostly diffuse thinner anyhow), but I seem to have at least maintained.

Do you take both concurrently?

8 minutes ago, LondonRamen said:

DHT is just one androgen. You still have testosterone (which will increase in response to the dutasteride/finasteride). On dutasteride for a few months taking it twice a week, no issues. If anything, i'm always horny as hell now because of it and the raised testosterone... could be placebo though 🧐

Looks like the sexual side effect you got was a good one

How are the gains? Have you also been on finasteride before? I have been on fin for close to 2 years and would love to get some advice on how to transition to dut.

Regards,

Sean

Hey guys,

I've had a great hair transplant result and have been maintaining my hair well on finasteride. The thing is, I'm still not quite satisfied with the regrowth of the area behind my transplants, as it's relative thinness of the hairs make for some styling issues.

I've tried 5mg oral minoxidil and was blown away with the results, but had to stop because I wasn't comfortable with taking a medication that might cause complications for my heart. Having had no sides on finasteride except for some changes in the consistency of my semen, I am strongly considering taking the plunge with dutasteride to solve my issue with the thin hairs once and for all. 

I know there probably aren't many in this forum who are on the drug, but am hoping someone could shed some light on how safe it is. I've read that dutasteride inhibits the production of more than 90% of DHT in the body and am wondering if this would feminize me. I'm not really sure how anti-androgens actually NOT feminize a person, seeing as they reduce male hormones in the body.

Hope to hear from you guys,

Sean

@spex

Hey guys,

Sorry for the late response. Have been busy with my new job.

I had my surgery done at an Indian clinic that is locally renowned. 

The doctor is skilled with using high-powered microscopes to do his work and that's about all I can tell you.

Regards,

Sean

5 hours ago, ciaus said:

Hey Sean, and then the Gillenator came along with a worse case anecdote and all is darkness again.

So reading his reply it certainly seems to be a possibility -though I'm not sure how much of a learning curve and difficulty he had effectively applying the foam when he first switched, which may have lead to or at least contributed to his shedding.  Maybe he'll come back and comment on that.

 

Personally, I jumped on fin and minox as soon as I started to notice the first hints of loss so that may be why I never had any dramatic sheds, and I had to stop the topical minox about a year in due to skin conditions and irritation.

 

Something else you can do, if you don't already, is to apply the foam when your scalp is dry but your hair is still a little damp (not dripping wet) so that it has less absorbing capacity. And when its already a little damp the hairs naturally clump together exposing more of your scalp area making it easier for the foam to make that direct skin contact.

Hopefully you are in a work from home scenario during the lockdown, or you can conceal your head with a hat or something just in case while you do the switch.

Yikes!

Some people apply foam in the morning and liquid at night. I'm thinking that might reduce the chance of a bad shed.

Honestly, I'm not digging applying minoxidil every day. I am contemplating going off it in the near future and just get a 800-1000 graft transplant to thicken up the area. 

I'm just not sure if surgeons are willing to transplant into my existing thin hairs. There's plenty of them but without minoxidil, I doubt they'll be of cosmetic effect.

What do you guys think?

On 9/1/2020 at 12:20 AM, ciaus said:

I don't want to make applying the foam sound harder than it is or impossible.

 

Finasteride and minox are like brakes in the hairloss process, more or less slowing it down depending on your genetics. Finasteride is the far more important of the two, since its doing the heavy lifting of protecting the hairs from DHT, so that the minoxidil has something to even work with. But since Finasteride doesn't block all DHT, over time you'll likely continue to lose some as your body chemistry changes from aging and the continuing assault of the remaining DHT that does still circulate.

 

The younger you are, the more important the brake system is, and since hairloss is a lifelong process I would argue brakes will always be a valuable and welcome thing to have where possible.

 

In your case, since you are already willing to apply the minoxidil daily (alot of guys are just too lazy), you should give the foam a try using one hand to part/spread/lift the hair while rubbing the foam into your scalp with the other hand for a few months. Even if some of your hairs are still in the way, they are not going to absorb all that minoxidil.

 

The alternative is cutting into your head and moving hairs around to give you the fuller appearance that the minoxidil is still able to currently do -and that's never a guarantee, there's always a yield risk inherent in any procedure where something(s) can go wrong and a substantial number of grafts fail to take root. And then there are the things that are guaranteed -having less donor hair which leaves less for reacting/planning/procedures down the road, and of course the financial cost.

 

Hey Ciaus,

Thank you for the informative response.

You've really convinced me to give the foam a try. 

Would switching from foam to liquid usually trigger shedding? I've seen on forums elsewhere that some people experience shedding when they switch their solution/foam to the other.

Regards,

Sean

I guess the foam wouldn't be more convenient as there's still plenty of hair where I'm applying the solution, weaker as they might be.

I'm still curious as to whether the idea of getting a transplant for the sake of going off minoxidil would be a sound idea.

10 hours ago, ciaus said:

 

While minoxidil does make your hair thicker and have longer growth cycles, it doesn't block DHT, which is what causes most of the hair loss for most guys. If you are already taking a DHT blocker like finasteride, that's the one you should worry about quitting. Once a hair follicle has been completely ravaged by DHT all the minoxidil in the world won't be able to save it.

Some guys do try the hair transplant journey without any meds, and its definitely more risky in terms of your long term results. You have to weigh factors like how old you are, how aggressive your loss has been, family history, how dense your donor area is.

Hey Ciaus,

I've been on propecia for close to 2 years and it's worked well at preventing further loss as well as provide some regrowth. 

The oral minoxidil I took in the past has helped to thicken up the regrown hairs which by themselves aren't as strong as my healthy hairs.

I have now switched to 5% topical minoxidil twice daily and what I hate about it is that I can't see how I can use dermmatch with it.

I do feel that minoxidil is best used with finasteride, as there is both a regrowth and anti-androgen factor. I'm always surprised to see people get stellar results from minoxidil monotherapy. 

Hey guys,

Thanks for all your responses.

I've decided to leave my scalp damp with the application. I do some rubbing just to ensure that it doesn't drip down onto my face.

Also, how viable is the idea of getting a transplant if I'm sick of using minoxidil to support minoxidil-dependent hair?

I would imagine I would have to take a break for a period of time to allow these hairs to shed in order for the doctor to have a better picture of the treatment area.

I'm thinking of visiting India again for the transplant if this is a sound idea.

Regards,

Sean

Hey guys,

I started applying 5% minoxidil solution to my scalp recently and would like to know if it is advisable to massage the liquid into my scalp.

I was not able to find any conclusive answers from Google about this and would like to hear from experienced users.

Should I leave the treated area wet or is it best to rub it in vigorously?

Thanks in advance!

@Melvin-Moderator @gillenator 

Hey guys,

I recently started a thread about my concerns with reducing my oral minoxidil dose, and have decided to quit as I do not want to risk my long-term heart health any longer.

I will be trying out topical minoxidil for the first time, but am puzzled by the instruction leaflet requesting for users to apply 1ml of the solution to the affected area.

1ml of Kirkland Minoxidil is about 40+ drops and I'm not sure if it's a good idea to apply that much in a 1 inch band of thinning hair just behind my transplants.

Would really love to hear any of your advice on this.

Regards,

Sean

3 minutes ago, jjsrader said:

Hi,

I never had any erectile issues.

I believe I may have had elevated heart rate about 6 months ago (or I'm just fat and out of shape when walking or biking up a hill) - regardless - I settled on long term 5mg per day 1X per day.

I figured that was reasonable for the long term.  I've had many surgeries w/another 1 or 2 more to go in the next 5 years & have very fine - very straight hair - so oral minox was never going to be something that really changed anything in a great way either or.

Without surgeries I would easily be a NW 5+ - so I just switched over to oral minox a few years ago 'cause I hated liquid minox, which I was having compounded at 30% cream at Murray Apothecary having worked my way up from 5% over the decades.

Thanks for the response, JJ.

You were on 20mg a day previously if I recall correctly. Did you experience any kind of sheds going down to 5mg?

How's your donor area coming along after so many surgeries?

59 minutes ago, ciaus said:

 

Whoa, had to stop when I read that and check out Kirkland's Minoxidil label -this image here is from Costco's website, they own the Kirkland brand, read that warning I've highlighted below.

Is this what you are drinking? This topical formulation is different from the oral pill. If so I would recommend you stop and check with a doctor, let them know how long you've been taking it, symptoms you've had, and see what they think about any kind of possible permanent damage you may have sustained.

 

Hey Ciaus,

Thanks for the reply.

The ingredients of Kirkland Minoxidil are Minoxidil, alcohol, propylene glycol and water - all of which do not cause harm to the body unless taken in excessive amounts or if one has an allergy to any of them. People who do drink topical minoxidil from the bottle usually drink no more than 4-5 droplets of the solution.

Do really try to avoid going above 5mg if you ever try oral minoxidil. I know of quite a number of people in the HairLossTalk forums who go up to 20mg and that's pretty insane.

@jjsrader

Hey JJ, just remembered you were one of the people on HRN who is on oral minoxidil as well. Would you be able to share if oral minoxidil has caused you any issues with getting it up too?

Thank you.

46 minutes ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

How long have you been experiencing a shed? I would tough it out.

Hey Melvin,

I started shedding after going back on oral minoxidil pills. I went from what I assume to be 5mg oral minoxidil in liquid form to half a 10mg pill (might not be exactly 5mg as I used a pill cutter). Was drinking liquid minoxidil for 2 months before my pills arrived.

I increased my dose to 10mg 5 days ago because I was worried my pill cutter was giving me inconsistent dosage every time, and I would rather go for a consistent dose even if it was higher.

I'm going to keep taking 10mg till my 5mg pills come in about a month.

Definitely going to tough this one out but am not sure if a sudden shift in dosage after a shed might prolong it or have any negative implications.

Would love to hear your thoughts or experiences.

Regards,

Sean

To anyone out there who stumbles upon this thread,

Would you be able to share if it is advisable to adjust the dosage of minoxidil in the midst of a shed?

I understand I'm part of a minority that takes the drug orally, but this should really be no different from someone asking about changing the strength of their Rogaine solution. 

My primary concern is that the sudden reduction of signaling strength to the follicles would result in one of those dreaded extended shedding phases, because the follicles are never able to adapt to a consistent dose. 

Would REALLY appreciate anyone's thoughts, opinions or advice on this!

@Melvin-Moderator@spex@JayLDD

On 8/8/2020 at 8:41 AM, ciaus said:

 

So from what little I know about oral minoxidil, 40-60mg is the strength range for its original purpose -treating high blood pressure. For the propecia-like reduced strength that will give you the hair loss prevention benefits, the dosages I'm seeing generally go up to only 2.5mg -that's two-point-five, not 25.

 

I've been thinking about starting oral minoxidil because I have sensitive scalp skin due to seborrheic dermatitis that is easily irritated by some of the ingredients in the topical minixodil formulations, like alcohol. I'm in the USA and talked with my doctor and he's offering to write me a script for 2.5mg pills cut in two, so essentially it would be a 1.25mg dosage per day. I've read in doses starting around 2.5 mg some might notice a slight increase in their heart rate so I'd be careful about the 5mg and 10mg doses -unless you do actually have elevated blood pressure.

 

But to your question about dosage and shedding, does the same company that made the 10mg pills also make the 5mg pills? Could be a potency, production issue, check with your pharmacy.

And have you started to take regular doses of aspirin for anything or any other changes in your life around this time health wise? -Check this out on the effects of aspirin on minoxidil - https://donovanmedical.com/hair-blog/asa-minoxidil

 

And here are some other interesting reads for anyone:

https://donovanmedical.com/hair-blog/side-effects-of-lowdose-minoxidil

https://www.practiceupdate.com/content/minoxidil-1-mg-orally-vs-minoxidil-5-solution-topically-for-the-treatment-of-female-pattern-hair-loss/88782
from the Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology

https://hairverse.com/oral-minoxidil/

Hey Claus,

Thank you for your reply.

From my experience, oral minoxidil doesn't have a noticeable effect on blood pressure and resting heart rate at 5mg and below.

I'm a Chinese male, 5"11 and 143lbs, and am living a rather sedentary lifestyle. I started off at 5mg and did not feel any adverse effects apart from strange sensations on some of my fingers ( probably from increased blood flow from the drug) which subsided after a week or two.

I took 5mg for a year without any problems whatsoever but things changed when I ran out of the pills and resorted to drinking topical Kirkland Minoxidil because of COVID-19 shipping delays. From my research around forums, 0.1ml of 5% Minoxidil solution would give me the equivalent of a 5mg oral dosage, but somehow I was beginning to feel side effects like shortness of breath and most alarmingly, problems with getting hard. 

I'm honestly not sure if it was the method of delivery or the likelihood of an increased dosage that caused my erectile issues, but the issue seemed to continue after I started taking 10mg pills. I remember the sexual sides only started after I started to drink liquid Minoxidil because I was always able to enjoy pornography throughout my time on the 5mg pill.

I will cease taking 10mg doses once the 5mg pills arrive, as the effects on my heart are really noticeable.

Oral minoxidil is a really powerful drug when taken in conjunction with finasteride, but 5mg should really be the upper limit for what I would consider a relatively safe dosage. With 5mg oral minoxidil, I was able to turn weak vellus hairs on my head to intermediate/almost terminal hairs which is fucking amazing. 10mg will probably strengthen them to be on par with terminal hairs, but I am just not willing to risk being on that dose for the long run.

About your questions, the 5mg pills I previously took was from AllDayChemist and manufactured under the name Lonitab by Intas, an Indian manufacturer. My 10mg pills were ordered from InhousePharmacy and are manufactured under the name Loniten by Pfizer. Both versions are definitely legitimate, but I won't rule out the possibility of a difference in potency arising from production issues.

I've never taken aspirin in my life but have heard about it nullifying the effects of Minoxidil.

Definitely give 2.5mg a try and see how it works out for you after 6 months. If you experience any undesirable sides at that dosage, then it would be unwise to increase it.

Regards,

Sean

On 8/8/2020 at 7:50 AM, gillenator said:

Cutting your dose in half is significant IMHO....you certainly can try to go back to your original strength and then work down in smaller increments.

You may find that once the shedding starts, there is little that can be done to stop it until the cycle is completed.

Hi Gillenator,

Thank you for your advice.

Would you happen to know if there are any adverse effects if I suddenly increase/decrease the dose of a medication (Minoxidil in this case) in the midst of a shed? I believe Minoxidil works by instructing telogen hairs to shed immediately and to begin the anagen process. 

I am worried that adjusting the dose while shedding would somehow result in complications for the regrowth process (I'm rather paranoid now), and would love to hear what you think about it.

Thank you,

Sean

Hey guys,

I recently reduced my oral minoxidil dosage from 10mg to 5mg, and was shocked to see that shedding of the minoxidil-dependent hairs has begun within a week.

I'm wondering if any of you here who use Minoxidil might be able to share your experiences with reducing your dosage. 

Is it common for sheds to happen when reducing the dose and would there be a good chance that I'll get my previous regrowth if I increase the dose again?

Thanks and really really hoping to get some advice.

Hey @Melvin-Moderator,

I was looking at the article you posted on your website: 

https://www.hairtransplantnetwork.com/what-does-the-illusion-of-density-mean-for-hair-transplants-/3275, 

and was wondering what exactly this '"layering and feathering" would look like. 

Would there happen to be any examples of layered/feathered hairstyles or unlayered/unfeathered ones just to illustrate your point?

I had my HT 2 years ago and wore a hair system the entire time it was growing in.

Just got rid of the system on Sunday and am sharing the photos of my pre-op, immediate post-op and current state.

My hair at this current moment is somewhere around a #3 or #4 cut, and I'm really hoping you could shed some light on what kind of hairstyles I should consider/avoid when it grows longer in the coming months. 

Regards,

Sean

P.S. I actually used DermMatch to darken the temple points and mid-scalp in the photo showing the current state of my hair. I must say DermMatch really blows Toppik out of the water with it being waterproof and also the amount of control it gives you over which parts of your scalp you want to thicken up. Also, I accidentally shaved a part of my eyebrow if anyone was wondering.