norton clinic wakefield

[balody]

thankyou pgp,you too are right this is ridiculous.

good luck with your fue.

[custard]

I would like to echo Bill's helpful suggestion and personally invite both balody and Fallenstar to the hair geek meet in Birmingham on the 1st June 08. Guys, it would be great to meet with you and see first hand the excellent work of the Farjo clinic - and what better way of putting to rest all of the negative views that are being expressed on this forum and elsewhere?

 

I can assure you of a warm welcome and will even stand a round at the bar. Please give it some serious consideration as you both have a valuable contribution to make in dispelling the myth that you cannot get a good HT in the UK.

 

Cheers

 

Custard (aka Beachboy)

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Damn Bill! I dont envy your position at all. Your the Pete Rose of the hair forums

[Dewayne]

I tell you, I've read this thread for the past several days or weeks, however long it's been going, and frankly it has become quite silly. Both sides, I think, are doing themselves not much good.

 

Spex, with all due respect you guys might be turning some future patient's off with the "in your face" type 'education' sometimes. I know, because I'm in an industry that is competitive, but the clients don't think it should be because the overall good of the client is supposed to be the overriding factor. In other words, it turns people off to be "sold", but that's really what is done. It's often difficult when you know a client is not being taken care of properly, but is often perceived as negative when you point it out.

 

balody, if your not a "shill" then I'd say the hell with them all! Who cares what they think about your scar? I like to promote the doctor I chose too, but I'm not going to dedicate a lot of time to it. Maybe for the first month or two, but after a while - no. (Unless I can get him to send me a check every now and again )

 

Just from scanning all the posts daily, it's all very odd. I agree with Feller that this thread has probably been good in that many patients will know, and many doctors will know, that there is a standard that has to be met.

 

Too bad there might be some callateral damage, though.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Spex I believe Dewayne was referring to this whole thread and others where its an all in your face post. These are the facts and there are no other ideas worth discussing. After being challenged the words "shill" always seens to surface. Or the "reveal yourself" comeback with the 'you know who I am now who are you? It gets a little old and Ive seen it on different forums. It comes across as a big bully session at times.

We ALL know how educated Dr Feller is and appreciate his knowledge and I agree with

him close to a 100% of the time but sometimes it goes too far when people dont bow down whether right or wrong.

I personally love the fact he comes on here but it becomes brutal on occasion.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Spex,

 

I find it funny that you felt the need to post this publicly when you could have very well sent me a private message with your opinions on the matter.

 

Frankly, confronting my efforts for trying to diversify these meets by encouarging a few Farjo patients to attend makes it appear that this gathering is a Feller promotional rather than an educational assembly.

 

These "meets" are currently dominated by Dr. Feller patients and YOU are attending as both a Feller patient and consultant. Don't you think this adds bias, especially considering everyone is encouraging prospective hair transplant patients to attend?

 

Besides, as custard stated above, I think most people are very interested in meeting Farjo patients in the flesh to see first-hand the quality of work that they perform.

 

Spex, I like you and feel that you offer valuable input on our discussion forum. But if this meet is really about educating prospective patients and not an attempt to garner more UK patients for Dr. Feller, you will support my efforts to diversify these meetings and let prospective patients decide for themselves.

 

We don't want to send the wrong message that all UK inhabitants must fly to the United States and Canada for a quality hair transplant do we?

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[balody]

dewayne,you are right this has become silly and yet again i feel i have let myself down by "biting"when i should have left it alone.

that being said it is hard when it is my pictures/scar/name being used and then someone accuses me of "re-editing"my posts of which i did no such thing.

i am no shill i swear and i hope people who read my posts regulary do not see me as one.dont get me wrong if i was working for the clinic i would be proud to include the fact in my signature, but i am just a happy patient who feels his dr gets the shitty end of the stick to often and probably does spend to much time on these forums.

cheers

[Dr. Bessam Farjo]

Dear Alan (Dr Feller),

 

Bill asked me to make a comment about Balody's scar to end the argument about it. I have not seen Balody actually since his last transplant, but when I saw the photo of him on this thread my immediate thought was that he had tilted his head backwards to take a self-photo. This obviously gives the illusion that the scar is lower than its real position. I am surprised that others here couldn't see that. This is why it is essential for the doctor to see and examine a patient in the flesh at consultation before he/she can make a proper diagnosis and recommendation. When he does eventually come to see me for a review I will take more detailed photos of Balody and his scar for the benefit of his fan base here! In the meantime, Mick asked Balody to have someone else take a photo of his donor scar while he is looking in a neutral straight ahead position and here it is. I hope this alleviates any worries anyone had about Balody's scalp.

 

To emphasise the point further Mick recently posted a couple of videos demonstrating excellent scars from surgery performed around a year ago (see Farjo Website). Also for anyone else interested see below a few examples of donor sites of transplants (no previous surgery) done over the last few weeks.

 

The level this particular thread has descended to is very unseemly and undignified. It also saddens and disappoints me greatly that you as a fellow physician have seen fit to resort to personal insults towards me. My only contribution to this thread only sought to demonstrate that you cannot simply and categorically say that above the line is good and below is bad. I interpreted the text that above is much preferable with regards to scar quality while below you have to apply caution. There are other factors to consider most importantly future hair loss. I did not say I would go below the line for no reason as you implied. In your original post you did not make exceptions and I simply wrote to demonstrate there are. The photos I posted were meant to show that potential. My whole theme is that rather than thinking issues are simply either black or white, there are various shades of grey. Yes there are generally accepted rules and guidelines which I try to stick to, but if it is simply about reading the textbook and applying what it says to the letter then we don't need trained doctors, experience, meetings or indeed discussion. Textbooks after all are written by people like you and me who drew on all what I am talking about.

 

I did not say that this kind of discussion should ONLY take place at a scientific meeting. I said it was a more appropriate place to argue scientific issues. I don't know what you mean when you say "doctors in a rented room". If it's meant to discredit such meetings, do you not work out of a rented office? Anyway I only assumed you have respect to such meetings and the ISHRS because of the claims on your website I mentioned in my previous post. Maybe you will choose to start coming to meetings in the future. Also I did not say you need approval from your colleagues. You can certainly do and claim anything you like. I said that valid scientific conclusions result from standing up to scrutiny and argument from your peers. This is why valid and accepted research for example has due credibility when published in peer-reviewed journals (on paper or online) as opposed to something that is not.

 

I admit that I did not give these forums any attention in the past. Certainly say prior to about 2 years ago. I didn't need to as we were very busy. It was Pat who brought to my attention that I was getting bad press here. On looking into it, it appeared to centre around posters who were pushing patients to go to the USA instead. I accepted Pat's criticism that we don't have a presence on the forums and his advice that we should demonstrate our work here. I also insisted that Pat should come and visit to see for himself our set up and patients. He did that of course and was very impressed as is well documented (see Pat's Farjo visit). I did not ask or suggest joining the Coalition. It was Pat who invited us on the strength of his visit during which he observed all aspects of surgery, consultations, post-op reviews, etc.

 

Alan, I would never dream of making any negative remarks about your work on a public forum unless you specifically ask my opinion. If I am seriously concerned or the particular patient asks me to then I would approach you privately. Even then the purpose would be for the benefit of both the doctor and the patient. My understanding is that this whole thread started by someone with a low wide scar from another clinic. That was followed with a patient of yours bringing Balody's misleading scar photo into the argument without the full facts and certainly without Balody's or my request or consent. In future if you have such concern or criticism to make I would really appreciate your input privately for both mine and my patient's future benefit. After all we are all striving towards the same thing which is good work, good results and happy patients.

 

While on Balody, I absolutely assure everyone that he does not work for me or my clinic. I do not pay him for taking part in any forum nor did I ask him to be there for any purpose. You once told me (? 2 years ago before you employed him) that Spex was a "Feller sycophant" when I made a private complaint to you about his methods at the time. Well I don't know if that is how I describe Balody but he is certainly a fan and a very happy patient. He obviously enjoys the forums and noticed the bias by some and wanted to share his good experience. I am surprised about your accusations about him when I can think of at least 1 or 2 others on your side here who show similar enthusiasm. In the past I have strongly discouraged him from making any derogatory or critical remarks about any doctor's work. If you have any complaints or issues with this then please email me privately and I will address them. BTW, 2 reasons why Balody did not go to the patient get together in Manchester. One he suspected it was a marketing exercise by Spex, and two Mick did not have time to organise others because my father passed away that week and his funeral was the very day of that meeting.

 

There really is no need to be angry or confrontational as at this rate you will give yourself a heart attack! That goes for you too, Balody! We can agree or disagree on issues as we are adults and experienced and established hair restoration doctors. I have only met you once 6 years ago at a meeting and you came across as a decent guy. I have not had anything to do with you since, until the reference to Spex I made above. I think that is about the time you started marketing for patients from the UK. Neither one of us can transplant everyone, and I'm sure we will both stay busy for a long time to come. I do not wish nor did I intend to have a go at you or engage in ??mudslinging' as Bill put it.

 

This will be my last post on this thread since continuing would only result in repeating myself again. You will all forgive me for not responding on any other issue over the rest of the week as I am away in Rome, Italy for the ISHRS workshop/meeting there.

 

Best wishes

(Dr.) Bessam Farjo

[Dr. Bessam Farjo]

I apologise as some of the photos from my above post did not come on. Here they are now:

 

 

[Bill - Seemiller]

Spex,

 

Why in your opinion don't more UK patients from UK clinics come along of their own free will - as they have been given every opportunity?

 

1. They are intimidated: words from Farjo patients themselves on this thread

 

2. There aren't many online: Dr. Feller uses the internet more heavily for promotion than any other clinic. Simply put, there aren't as many UK clinic patients being asked regularly to do so. This is not a criticism of Dr. Feller, but a criticism of clinics who don't encourage their patients to post online. Nonetheless, it doesn't alter reality.

 

Now answer me this: Why would a paid showcase care if I have encouraged patients from another clinic to attend a meet when a patient member (custard) commended me for it and agreed?

 

Maybe if the few Farjo patients that do regularly use the internet weren't afraid of how they think they might be treated at (hence Custard's reply to concerns made by Farjo patients on the previous page), I wouldn't have to encourage them.

 

By the way, my initial post before I "softened" it was loaded with questions, not absolute statements. I altered it to make it shorter and make my points differently. I did not accuse you of anything - only challenged your reasons for asking me not to encourage Farjo patients to attend.

 

Also, I've always responded to all of your private messages. Just because I didn't do what you wanted doesn't mean that I haven't addressed them properly.

 

I have no desire to continue to discuss your ridiculous request on this thread. Case closed.

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dr. Farjo,

 

Thanks for posting. The pictures you have displayed of Balody's scar looks to be on, or at least very close to the occipital bump in these pictures. Clearly a head tilt will change the appearance of the location of the scar.

 

By the way, the parenthesis in your other images are preventing them from displaying. You may want to edit the file names and then relink them.

 

Otherwise, members can simply copy/paste the URL in a new window to see the pictures.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[richie48]

Hi all

 

I thought I better post after it was me who inadvetadly started this .

 

With respect thankyou Dr Farjo and Dr Feller for an incredebly informed and honest debate .

 

Dr Farjo , before you leave for Rome would you answer one final question ?

 

Could you explain the photo above , I can see only a finger , is this were the scar is , as on the other photo which I have put next to yours ,with balody's head at the same angle , you can quite clearly see the scar looks alot lower than were the finger is placed , I accept balody has shorter hair in the first pic , but this difference cannot be put down to the angle of the photo , you can clearly see balody's thinning crown area for comparison .

 

 

Balody I apologise in advace for using your photo again , but is is in the interest of this debate .

 

Thankyou

richie

[maxzor]

why do you people keep showing balody's scar?

Apparently he is happy with his result and his scar is not stretched. This way it only looks as you want to find something negative about Farjo clinic.

It is nice of Balody to want to help fellow hairloss sufferers by creating a weblog and showing pictures and taking part of the community. But this way he may regret his decision to put his pictures here.

 

It is good to talk about the science of taking a scar. But in my opinion it is a bit useless to keep showing one picture of Balody where we can't see the placement of the scar for sure.

 

max

[Dewayne]

Originally posted by maxzor:

why do you people keep showing balody's scar?

Apparently he is happy with his result and his scar is not stretched. This way it only looks as you want to find something negative about Farjo clinic.

It is nice of Balody to want to help fellow hairloss sufferers by creating a weblog and showing pictures and taking part of the community. But this way he may regret his decision to put his pictures here.

 

max

 

I agree Max. If I was balody, I'd go to the meet just to knock some heads.....

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I think that is about the time you started marketing for patients from the UK.

That was very funny. But what most doctors can't accept is that I don't "market" per se. I just put up my patients before/after photos and let them tell their stories. Then I invite potential patientsto compare based on volume and consistency of results.

 

Dr. Farjo,

 

1. The issue was never about Balody's scar. Mick and Balody just assumed it was because his scar was virtually identical to Allan's in the "side by side" photos posted by Richie. I'm sure that's what drew you into the debate.

 

You did, nevertheless, chime in with a post that defended such scar placement by saying that exceptions to the rules exist. And while I agree with you, no such exceptions were apparent in Allan's case and most of the reasons for exception would have compelled the surgeon to take a strip from further above the nuchal line, rather than below it as you asserted.

What Bill, I, and other viewers are waiting for is your reason or list of reasons that would justify your stated position that in Allan's case (you can leave Balody out of this if you'd like) you would go below the nuchal line? I have asked this quite clearly in a few other posts and am repeating it yet again.

 

2. You wrote "My only contribution to this thread only sought to demonstrate that you cannot simply and categorically say that above the line is good and below is bad."

If that was your only contribution, then you missed the point of the entire thread. The thread was not about how closely I would adhere to the textbook, it had nothing to do with ME, it was about poor surgical technique and why Allan had such an awful scar. Your post, however, only focused on ME and not the issue at hand. From your last post it is obvious that you still don't get it.

 

3. You wrote

"My understanding is that this whole thread started by someone with a low wide scar from another clinic. That was followed with a patient of yours bringing Balody's misleading scar photo into the argument without the full facts and certainly without Balody's or my request or consent. In future if you have such concern or criticism to make I would really appreciate your input privately for both mine and my patient's future benefit.

 

In the first part of your statement you acknowledge that it wasn't me, but a patient of mine who posted a picture of Balody. It had nothing to do with me, yet in the second part you bring ME into it by admonishing me to contact you privately if I have a criticism in the future. Are you aware that I have nothing to do with what other posters do or post on the internet? Clearly you still think I am some sort of internet "mastermind" as you made clear in your nasty letters to me years ago. This was the source of your nastiness years ago, and I see it still is today.

 

4. What do you care if I attend Society meetings or not? Why are you so fixed on this to the point that you write about it as if it is something I should be embarrassed about? I couldn't care less how often you post my attendance record. I'll even put it up on my homepage if it will make you happy. Do you really think acumen and skill in the field of HT surgery are affected one way or the other by attending ISHRS meetings?

 

5. Getting personal is not calling someone out on an internet debate about proper scar placement. Getting personal is interfering with my business by making false claims about my representative in the UK and having my HTN U.K. listing removed. THAT'S personal, and I wonder if you would come on here and deny any knowledge of this in writing.

[something]

with all due respect Dr Feller,

 

you are extremely bullish and oft putting with your consistent pressure.

 

what do you want to gain from this? you will only loose potential costumers because this comes across as unprofessional, egotistical and crude.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Dear forum members,

 

It is clear that this discussion can't continue because it has gone from an intellectual debate to a personal war.

 

As a courtesy, I will leave this thread open until tomorrow (Tuesday) morning for members to have their final says and then I am going to lock it.

 

It's time to end this personal battle and move on with helping patients find real hair restoration solutions.

 

Does anyone disagree?

 

Bill

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

It seems like there are some past issues that were never resolved between the two docs. This thread should be locked tommorrow because nothing else positive can come from it. I did learn alot of things from this thread good and bad.

[richie48]

Hi all

 

To sum up

 

We have established these Drs to be both knowledgeble and willing to post , even with obvious past history issues .

 

We have established Balody is happy with his scar position , that is a good thing .

 

We have also established that Allen's ,the topic starter's ,scar is low .

 

We know that medical text books are to be followed and donors taken from upon the nunchal bump are surgically accurate , as per the text book .

 

We can clearly see both Dr's agree that there are exceptions to this text book rule , namely if the patient is an exceptional case , due to low crown resesion , risk of further loss , scar becoming visible , as this has happened to a patient who posted on this thread .

 

I have evidence that regaurdless of these photo inaccuraces , Balody has admitted himself that his scar is low over on another forum , I have taken the time to screen save this admission incase I am asked to prove myself .

 

What STILL hasn't been answered though is why Balodys scar is low AND if Balody's case is an "exceptional case" to warrent the low scar ?

 

Bill please could you reconcider leaving this thread open until Dr Farjo can answer this question ?

 

thankyou

richie

[something]

richie,

 

your beating a dead horse...let it go man.

 

what really hasn't been answered is why are you so concerned over Balody's scar?

 

are you trying to school everyone on proper scar placement, and be the hero of the day.

 

i just don't get this shit.

[irish homer]

At the risk of been tagged as a fellerite, i will give my 2 cents on this. I just don't see what the problem is. Dr F only questions the placement of the scar in the two patients pictures that were shown in this trend. He has no problem with the exceptional cases and justs asks where the exception is here.

If any party appears to be getting attacked here it is Dr F and Spex, unfairly so.

The doc has a gift for getting to the point and a passion for saying and doing the right thing which is evident here.

 

"what do you want to gain from this? you will only loose potential costumers because this comes across as unprofessional, egotistical and crude."

Not a hope of patients being put off, if you meet him you will feel his passion for HT, the fact that he could get hair to grow on an egg helps too

IH

[Dr. Alan Feller]

I understand this thread is being shut down. I don't understand why, but it's not my site so I'll make my last post.

 

Thank you Richie and Thank you I.H.

Your posts are dead on accurate and to the point.

As I.H. pointed out I HAVE been attacked. Attacked for writing the truth, and then attacked again for supporting it with documentation, and then attacked again for supporting the documentation,and then attacked again for sharing information with the public, and so on.

 

I made 10 detailed posts referring directly to the situation. In 5 weeks, my opponent made just 2, both of which focused more on ME than the issue at hand.

 

Something,

If I seem bullish, it's because I get into a debate to either win or be proven wrong. That's how I learn. That's how you and members of this community will learn. If the other side can prove my position wrong, then I will accept it and change my ways. I expect my opponent to do the same when their position is proven wrong.

 

However, in this case my opponenet did not address my views and the documentation I used to support it, but rather focused on ME.

 

I never asked him into this thread and I didn't ask him for a debate. He took it upon himself to engage me and make a post that only confused the issues, not clarify them. And when I challanged his publicly stated positions, he admonished me in yet another post for not keeping it "private".

 

If he wanted it to be "private" then why did he post his response on the internet in the first place? Why did he challenge me publicly? If he wanted the situation to be private, why didn't HE email me instead of complaining that I didn't email him? I NEVER received any email from him concerning this thread. Why not if "privacy" was such an issue to him?

 

I am bullish because I can't stand B.S. being fed to the public. That's why I take a strong stance against bogus laser hair growth schemes and megasession FUE procedures. They are WRONG and not subject to interpretation no matter how many off-topic points are raised in an effort to distract from the main issue. They are also wrong no matter how much their defenders attack ME.

 

This thread was similer to those debates in that reality seemed to be thrown out the window.

 

My final statement will be the one I made at the beginning of this thread and one my oppenent was not able to counter within context:

 

ABOVE THE NUCHAL LINE GOOD, BELOW THE NUCHAL LINE BAD

 

 

Dr. Feller

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

Hey Ritchie and Irish homer . Whats worse to you. One HAPPY patient that appears to have a scar a little lower then usual or Armani who is wasting thousands of grafts on TONS of young kids with his mega fue. If you want to be a savior for the industry why not climb that mountain. I know Dr Feller has posted about the mega session clinics and Shane but not Armani himself. DIRECTLY call Armani out next if you want to start calling out doctors. Also I remember this was the exact same location Armani took his strip grafts before he switched ton fue only . I dont remember ANYONE calling him out then. By the way Ive seen a ton of wide scars that were on or above the bump and and ALOT of the thinnest scars were from Armani below the bump. Id go with the textbook also but there are bigger issues to MOVE on to.

[PLEASE GROW PLEASE]

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/websites/galleryview.cfm?id=tankmn|gallery19.cfm

 

I can show you 20 non tricho scars below the bump that look like this. Maybe it would have been better higher but ALL of us would accept this . Obviously Dr Farjo is too busy to post or feels like this should be private or is just feels exposed but if you want to educate the masses start another thread with the topic above or below. Otherwise its clear what is going on

[Bill - Seemiller]

Richie,

 

We know you believe Balody's scar is below the occipital bump from one or two photos. Dr. Farjo already addressed the deception of these photos. He also stated that he will take detailed in person pictures of the scar when he sees Balody in person to further address this issue. I imagine once he sees Balody in person for evaluation, he'll be able to more fully address this. But given that Balody's scar shows no signs of stretching and is no concern to the patient nor the physician, it's time to move on. If you would like to pursue this further, please contact Dr. Farjo directly. His information can be found on his online Coalition profile.

 

Dr. Feller,

 

Dr. Farjo jumped into the debate on this thread however, it is quite obvious that his first post was addressing your "scar city" topic. In your second to last post you asked him to explain his reasons for justifying the position of Allan's scar. Nowhere in this thread do I see him speaking of Allan or condoning his scar placement. I'm not sure how or why you are asking him to justify another doctor's patient's scar.

 

You have made your point very clear "Above the Nuchal Line GOOD, Below the nuchal line BAD". This is the well accepted rule. Dr. Farjo has made his point very clear - not everything is either good or bad, but many shades of gray. He has made a case for the exception. It is now time for our members to draw their own conclusions.

 

Quite often you claim that you are being "attacked" by those who disagree with you while those who who agree are "dead on accurate". I respect your opinion immensely, but in my opinion, you are going to have to accept that your opinion is not the only accepted one. Personally, I'd love to see a continued educational debate on this topic at the ISHRS conference in Montreal. I hope you'll attend.

 

Dear forum members,

 

Beyond the insults, there is a lot of valuable information in this thread to learn from. But it is obvious that this thread has taken a destructive turn. I have a great respect for all who have participated on this thread, but allowing this war to continue will be harmful to everyone involved.

 

Balody's scar (a little low or not) shows no sign of stretching and is of no concern to the patient or physician, but will be further addressed (says Dr. Farjo) after an in-person consult. Allan (the topic starter) is not Dr. Farjo's patient. Both physicians made compelling arguments regarding the acceptable place to harvest the donor strip, both the norm and whether or not exceptions exist.

 

And now, since the horse has been beaten to death ten times over, it's time to draw your own conclusions and move on.

 

Thanks for your participation.

 

Bill