Regular Member taoofjord Posted August 22, 2004 Regular Member Share Posted August 22, 2004 (I'm 22 years old. Mother's side: Her father had little hairloss, her grandfather had a good amount of hair loss, NW 4, I think. Father's side: My father and his father - Recending hair-line, not too much loss in the crown area. My crown is fine, but my hair in general isn't as dense as it once was, and my hairline is starting to thin and recede at the temples and a little at the front.) 1) If one starts losing their hair at a younger age, does that have any correlation with: -Losing more hair in their life time? -Whether one stabalizes or not? (In other words, I started losing my hair when I was 20 years and 6 months. Does this mean I will probably not stabalize soon?) 2) My dad has receding temples, and so do both of my half-brothers, I'm getting this as well, but at a yougner age. Does that mean I'm not following their pattern? 3) I'm now taking Nioxin, Nizoral, Propecia, and I'm thinking about taking L-lysine. I'm really going crazy about losing my hairline so I know thats a lot But my doctor told me that one of his patients went from taking 1 pill of proecia a day to 2 pills of propecia a day for 2 months. He said the man saw improvement. Now, have any of you heard about this? And if so, is it possible it could help at my hairline, or is propecia for the crown area only? 4) I'm curious about concealing products like Toppik. Do they work as well as the advertisments say? The last thing I want is to look like I'm covering up my lack of hair. 5) What is this future treatment, Dutasteride I read about on the bald truth.com? I don't htink the site has been updated for a while but they said that should be available around 2002. 6) Is there a correlation between scaling dandruff and hair loss? I have the type of dandruff where there are larger "chunks" coming off at the top of my head. I'm on nizoral to get rid of that, but I've had this for about a year now. If this goes away, is there a chance my hair loss could slow down and I could possibly even grow the hair back? 7) Other than therapy, do you have any personal recommendations on how to be more confident in yourself? I'm not a very confident person to begin with, but now that I just started seeing a sizable difference at my temples I'm getting really depressed. I don't want anyone to see me, and this isn't good since I have school coming up in a week. 8) If I play with my hair at my hairline (where I see the most difference), will I make my temples recede faster? 9) Being 22 years old, how long would you recommend I wait till I start considering a hair transplant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member gillenator Posted August 22, 2004 Senior Member Share Posted August 22, 2004 Dear Taoofjord, Wow! Lots of good questions and it sounds like your doing your homework so good for you. I will do my best to answer what I can for you and I am sure others will respond as well. Keep reading and researching as I would discourage you from trying to get a HT procedure done at present. I will explain this in your latter question. Please allow me to now respond to each question: 1) Most definitely genetic hairloss at a younger age carries the implication that you WILL lose more in the years to come. Bet on it. You must understand that androgenetic alopecia is in fact a genetic condition from your bloodlines and it sounds in your case to be from both the maternal as well as the paternal side of your family history. Genetic hairloss does not resolve itself on its own as you and I and other hairloss sufferers cannot dispose of our genetic make-up (profile). Think of it like a fingerprint or even your DNA profile. 2) You probably "are" following a similiar pattern as your family members including your half-brothers. Most men do in fact sustain hairloss in the temporal lobe areas in the various classifications of genetic hairloss. Look up the "Norwood" scale and you will no doubt see your pattern displayed. Now just because you do not yet see scalp in the crown, it does not mean that you are not diffusing (beginning stages of hairloss)there. The only way to know for sure is to have a competent HT surgeon examine all areas of your scalp to note any miniturazation (loss of caliper, diameter thickness)to confirm which areas are indeed affected and also to note where future loss can occur. The next time you are out in public, take particular note that ther are men with the similiar pattern of loss and they are not even related to you. There are seven classes depicting temporal and crown loss and another six for hairline recession on the Norwood scale. 3) Of the many products you are utilizing, Propecia is the medicinal product that in my estimation is doing the stabilization. Look up Propecia's pharmacology classification at Merck's website to gain all of the information of Proecia's benefits as well as their noted potential side-effects. It is also included in every dispention of the product in printed format. It should be attached to the bottle or inside the packaging material. Merck's controlled clinical trials claim efficiency in the mid-anterior scalp (vertex) and post-anterior scalp (crown). Both Propecia (finasteride) and Rogaine (minoxidil)do not claim retardation of genetic hairloss in the front forelock. I find it HIGHLY unusual that your doctor and I presume you are referring to your PCP, would recommend taking two tablets of Propecia per day for treating genetic hairloss. Again read the pharmacology classification, then bring it to your doctor and point out the facts of the medication. I am not trying to say I know more than any doctor as I am not one, but I hear this kind of thing EVERY day and then the patient calls me back and almost always the doctor agrees with the clinical findings. The active ingredient in Propecia is finasteride which has been clinically proven to block Type I DHT effectively in over ninety percent of men ingesting it for 12 months or longer at 1mg per day. Merck clearly states that taking more than the recommended dose will not provide you any advantages. The other products may aid you in cleansing your scalp and even invigorating it but I want to encorage you to deal with your high genetic disposition of producing a high level of DHT from testosterone, which is the genetic trait I spoke of earlier and most undoubtedly the cause of your hairloss. 4)Toppik is a great cosmetic way to help conceal your hairloss. The product consists of ground protein fibers that carry a negative charge to them. When applied carefully, the fibers "cling" to the hair cylinders making them appear fatter, and henceforth, WHAM, it looks like far more density right? The magic of Toppik is not that it is adding hairs but in fact making them appear fatter versus miniturized. Most experts in the field will inform you that caliper is the single most critical factor in coverage. It is extremely difficult to apply this product in the temporal zones unless you master the technique of "tapping". 5) Dutasteride claims to effectively block both Type I and Type II DHT which may give the advantage over Propecia in some cases. I have had patients mention that Propecia did not seem to work but saw much better results in Dutasteride. They were however the minority of my clinical experience. Dutasteride to my knowledge is still not approved by the FDA in treating genetic hairloss (MPB). 6) You need to see a dermatologist on this one, anything else is pure speculation. 7)You are who YOU and only YOU perceive yourself to be. I'm talking about the man inside you. Oh sure, I know, the occaisional glance at your hairline from others. We have all been through this and believe me Taoofjord, I know what it is like firsthand so I empathize with you my friend. But as long as you do not negatively react to their roaming eyes, they will know it does not shake the ground under you right? Do not let your buddies get to you if they start kidding you either. That's what they may want to see, to see if they can push your buttons. That's all. 8) Yes you can advance your genetic hairloss by pulling or twisting the hair cylinders. It's commonly called traction alopecia. Now you can wash it, groom it, and so forth, just don't apply tension or pull at your hair. 9)Here's the "big issue" that I said I would touch on at the end. DO NOT, and I mean DO NOT get a HT until you have at least waited until age 25. Why? You owe it to yourself to get a better gauge on how extensive your genetic hairloss is headed. Generally speaking, and there are exceptions, men who sustain genetic hairloss which is visible before age twenty usually is an indicator of extensive hairloss in the future. Now before you fall backwards, let me give you the good news. You are already ahead by being pro-active by starting Propecia, evaluating family history, and most of all, doing your research! I want to encourage you to consider your hair restoration planning based on your lifetime, not just what's missing today. You will need to adequately plan for future procedures and you will need future donor for that. The fundamental problem is that donor supplies are finite and yet genetic hairloss can be infinite. It's an issue of "supply and demand". Hopefully hair multliplication, scalp impregnation, follicule cloning, etc. will be in your lifetime, but do not bet the farm on it. The technology always seems to be another five years away. I have been hearing this for the past twenty-five years although I believe more strides have been made recently. I'm waiting for the proof in the pudding like everyone else. I would base your planning with the donor reserves you have from mother nature. In addition we do not know the long-term implications and efficiencies of finasteride, dutasteride, etc. These medications may "slow down" our genetic hairloss but they are not the cure. They are only buying us time. Again, at age 25, go to be examined by a reputable HT doctor. You can look up many in this forum's Coalition of doctors at hairsurgeons.com and/or ask many of us right here in this community or other communities. You will find consistency in feedback regarding the good ones. But utimately it will be your own choice based on your own criteria. That's why the more informed you are, the better equipped you will be to make the right decisions for Taoofjord. I truly hope this response has been helpful and I wish you the very best now and in the future. Take care! Gillenator Independent Patient Advocate I am not a physician and not employed by any doctor/clinic. My opinions are not medical advice, but are my own views which you read at your own risk. Supporting Physicians: Dr. Robert Dorin: The Hairloss Doctors in New York, NY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member HairBeThere Posted August 22, 2004 Senior Member Share Posted August 22, 2004 I don't think I could add anything myself. Gillenator hit all points right on the head!! Definitely wait till you are 25, and prepare yourself for possibly more work needed done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member MyPrecious Posted August 22, 2004 Regular Member Share Posted August 22, 2004 I'm 22yrs old asian male, in the same boat as you are taoofjord maybe worse, I'm planning to wait till I'm 25 for a FUE or HM, start saving your money if you decide that you want a HT in the future, that's what I'm doing right now, 10% of my paycheck goes to my Hair Transplant Fund, it keeps me motivated, and if I decide not to get one later, I can use my money on something else like paying off my student loan that I use for buying alcohol, by then the industry should be a bit more advance and you'll have more chance of having a good result, maybe by then you won't even care anymore, Just hang in there, in the meanwhile just enjoy your life, Be proactive. party hard get drunk and get laid Ignorance is a bliss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Brando Posted August 23, 2004 Senior Member Share Posted August 23, 2004 Taoofjord and Myprecious: You guys should post some pics for us and enter the essay contest. You have nothing to lose and a free hair transplant to gain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member taoofjord Posted August 23, 2004 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 23, 2004 Wow, thank you all for the information! Here are some pictures, I just cut my hair real short, and you can see the thinning temples really well now. I think I'll grow my hair out some so it's not as noticeable http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/taoofjord/Hair/Jordloss.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/taoofjord/Hair/Jordloss2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/taoofjord/Hair/Jordloss3.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/taoofjord/Hair/Jordloss4.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/taoofjord/Hair/Jordloss5.jpg By the way, I've always had a high hairline, here's an older picture of me: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/taoofjord/Hair/tv.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v126/taoofjord/Hair/kissbeth.jpg Those are both from about 2-3 years ago... but they are the best I could find on my computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member taoofjord Posted August 23, 2004 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 23, 2004 Dear Taoofjord, Wow! Lots of good questions and it sounds like your doing your homework so good for you. I will do my best to answer what I can for you and I am sure others will respond as well. Keep reading and researching as I would discourage you from trying to get a HT procedure done at present. I will explain this in your latter question. Please allow me to now respond to each question: 1) Most definitely genetic hairloss at a younger age carries the implication that you WILL lose more in the years to come. Bet on it. You must understand that androgenetic alopecia is in fact a genetic condition from your bloodlines and it sounds in your case to be from both the maternal as well as the paternal side of your family history. Genetic hairloss does not resolve itself on its own as you and I and other hairloss sufferers cannot dispose of our genetic make-up (profile). Think of it like a fingerprint or even your DNA profile. **So people who start losing hair at a younger age tend to not stabilize at a certain point? Or am I completely off base and is it that no one stabalizes unless they are on propecia? 2) You probably "are" following a similiar pattern as your family members including your half-brothers. Most men do in fact sustain hairloss in the temporal lobe areas in the various classifications of genetic hairloss. Look up the "Norwood" scale and you will no doubt see your pattern displayed. Now just because you do not yet see scalp in the crown, it does not mean that you are not diffusing (beginning stages of hairloss)there. The only way to know for sure is to have a competent HT surgeon examine all areas of your scalp to note any miniturazation (loss of caliper, diameter thickness)to confirm which areas are indeed affected and also to note where future loss can occur. The next time you are out in public, take particular note that ther are men with the similiar pattern of loss and they are not even related to you. There are seven classes depicting temporal and crown loss and another six for hairline recession on the Norwood scale. ** So the dermatologist I see for my hair can't figure that out? I would definately like to find out where i'll be losing my hair in the future... I think that would lessen my anxiety a bit. Right now, I'm still at the point that I don't know what is going on. And my hair was falling out a good bit while I was on propecia. It took about 11 or so months before the hair slowed down, but now I'm seeing the most change. Strange huh? 3) Of the many products you are utilizing, Propecia is the medicinal product that in my estimation is doing the stabilization. Look up Propecia's pharmacology classification at Merck's website to gain all of the information of Proecia's benefits as well as their noted potential side-effects. It is also included in every dispention of the product in printed format. It should be attached to the bottle or inside the packaging material. Merck's controlled clinical trials claim efficiency in the mid-anterior scalp (vertex) and post-anterior scalp (crown). Both Propecia (finasteride) and Rogaine (minoxidil)do not claim retardation of genetic hairloss in the front forelock. I find it HIGHLY unusual that your doctor and I presume you are referring to your PCP, would recommend taking two tablets of Propecia per day for treating genetic hairloss. Again read the pharmacology classification, then bring it to your doctor and point out the facts of the medication. I am not trying to say I know more than any doctor as I am not one, but I hear this kind of thing EVERY day and then the patient calls me back and almost always the doctor agrees with the clinical findings. The active ingredient in Propecia is finasteride which has been clinically proven to block Type I DHT effectively in over ninety percent of men ingesting it for 12 months or longer at 1mg per day. Merck clearly states that taking more than the recommended dose will not provide you any advantages. The other products may aid you in cleansing your scalp and even invigorating it but I want to encorage you to deal with your high genetic disposition of producing a high level of DHT from testosterone, which is the genetic trait I spoke of earlier and most undoubtedly the cause of your hairloss. **Is there a way to find out if the propecia is working for me or not? Like I said above, it took a while before I noticed anything. However, it could just be a stage in my body as opposed to the propecia doing anything. I'd rather not waste all ths money on propecia (my insurance doesn't cover it at all and i'm paying almost 70 bucks for 30 pills now. 4)Toppik is a great cosmetic way to help conceal your hairloss. The product consists of ground protein fibers that carry a negative charge to them. When applied carefully, the fibers "cling" to the hair cylinders making them appear fatter, and henceforth, WHAM, it looks like far more density right? The magic of Toppik is not that it is adding hairs but in fact making them appear fatter versus miniturized. Most experts in the field will inform you that caliper is the single most critical factor in coverage. It is extremely difficult to apply this product in the temporal zones unless you master the technique of "tapping". ** Yeah I don't think I'll ever use that stuff as I'd rather go au natural. I would feel too weird if I had to use that and I'd rather just shave my head instead. 5) Dutasteride claims to effectively block both Type I and Type II DHT which may give the advantage over Propecia in some cases. I have had patients mention that Propecia did not seem to work but saw much better results in Dutasteride. They were however the minority of my clinical experience. Dutasteride to my knowledge is still not approved by the FDA in treating genetic hairloss (MPB). ** If I tried duasteride would I need to stop proecia as well? 6) You need to see a dermatologist on this one, anything else is pure speculation. **I think I asked him but before but he didn't give me a definite answer. I mean, when I have the scales of dandruff coming off, there are usually one or two hairs attathed to it. And because they are scales I can imagine it scarring my scalp or something... though I'm just guessing. 7)You are who YOU and only YOU perceive yourself to be. I'm talking about the man inside you. Oh sure, I know, the occaisional glance at your hairline from others. We have all been through this and believe me Taoofjord, I know what it is like firsthand so I empathize with you my friend. But as long as you do not negatively react to their roaming eyes, they will know it does not shake the ground under you right? Do not let your buddies get to you if they start kidding you either. That's what they may want to see, to see if they can push your buttons. That's all. ** I wish that was as easy to do as it is to say! I just hope I can overcome this mentally so it won't be a problem. 8) Yes you can advance your genetic hairloss by pulling or twisting the hair cylinders. It's commonly called traction alopecia. Now you can wash it, groom it, and so forth, just don't apply tension or pull at your hair. ** I don't touch my hair, but my gf likes to run her fingers through my hair, and since it's pretty short I was wondering if that would cause strain? The loss on my left temple became readily apparent to me after she did that a couple times. Dont know if it's a coincidence or not, but I'm going to tell her to stop touch the hair in the frontal area 9)Here's the "big issue" that I said I would touch on at the end. DO NOT, and I mean DO NOT get a HT until you have at least waited until age 25. Why? You owe it to yourself to get a better gauge on how extensive your genetic hairloss is headed. Generally speaking, and there are exceptions, men who sustain genetic hairloss which is visible before age twenty usually is an indicator of extensive hairloss in the future. Now before you fall backwards, let me give you the good news. You are already ahead by being pro-active by starting Propecia, evaluating family history, and most of all, doing your research! I want to encourage you to consider your hair restoration planning based on your lifetime, not just what's missing today. You will need to adequately plan for future procedures and you will need future donor for that. The fundamental problem is that donor supplies are finite and yet genetic hairloss can be infinite. It's an issue of "supply and demand". Hopefully hair multliplication, scalp impregnation, follicule cloning, etc. will be in your lifetime, but do not bet the farm on it. The technology always seems to be another five years away. I have been hearing this for the past twenty-five years although I believe more strides have been made recently. I'm waiting for the proof in the pudding like everyone else. I would base your planning with the donor reserves you have from mother nature. In addition we do not know the long-term implications and efficiencies of finasteride, dutasteride, etc. These medications may "slow down" our genetic hairloss but they are not the cure. They are only buying us time. Again, at age 25, go to be examined by a reputable HT doctor. You can look up many in this forum's Coalition of doctors at hairsurgeons.com and/or ask many of us right here in this community or other communities. You will find consistency in feedback regarding the good ones. But utimately it will be your own choice based on your own criteria. That's why the more informed you are, the better equipped you will be to make the right decisions for Taoofjord. I truly hope this response has been helpful and I wish you the very best now and in the future. Take care! ^ I quoted you but added ***'s next to my new comments. And, some side notes... 1) Looking at my pictures, do you think (honestly!!), I would look okay if I lost a lot of hair on the top of my head? 2) Is it harder to meet women if one is balding? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senior Member Kez Posted August 23, 2004 Senior Member Share Posted August 23, 2004 taoofjiord - >Is it harder to meet women if one is balding?> This one keeps coming up, and always results in a tug-of-war. Your average bloke will scream YES!!!!!! and then others will chip in with "BUT...look at --- ( famous bald guys with women all over them ) " So the answer is: how do you yourself feel about it ? British TV recently did a documentary of a bloke in his early thirties who was pretty bald, and normally buzzed his hair. He was pretty self-confident and enjoyed going clubbing with his mates regularly. The show's presenters got him to use a hairpiece, and try chatting up the women both with and without hair. The overall result was that the women preferred him WITH hair, and he himself, despite his normal confidence, felt that the hair made a big difference - made him look "ten years younger". I certainly feel a lot better since my HT has started to grow; I can see the years coming off ( and may even go on for some cosmetic facial surgery, being an "older" guy, unlike all you 25-year old pups ) (By the way, I'm visiting Sognefjiord, Norway, next week. Any relation ? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member Dr. Paul Rose Posted August 24, 2004 Regular Member Share Posted August 24, 2004 1. The natural inclination is to say that you are at a greater risk of losing more hair and more extensive loss but the fact is that geneticc hairloss is a bit unpredictable. Just yesterday I saw man in his late forties who inidcated that he had rapid hair loss form the tmeples and frontal area byt he time he was 18 or 19 but after a few years it stopped and he has a modest area of hair loss,more or less a type 3a. That siad I think it is reasonable to be on medications that can slow the process down. 2. You may still follow the patternof your father and half brothers but it is too soon to tell.we have learned that hairloss is multifactorial genetically, not just dependent on the maternal side. 3.I am pretty skeptical about Nioxin and have doubts about the L-Lysine as well. Interms of taking two of the propecia tabs the evidence showed that the response curve for Propecia is essentially equal ot that of the higher dose Proscar in terms of hair growth and halting hair loss. 4. Toppik, Dermatch and other camouflage agents can be very helpful 5.The jury is still out on Dutasteride. it is no doubt very effective in blocking both pathways to DHT. As you know the drug has not been approved for hair loss and the company does not seem to be pursuing FDA approval for such use. The hair loss market is rather large so it seems odd that they have elcted not to spend the money to oush for this if it is safe and effective. On the other hand some people have used it off label and report good reuslts. I have had patients who have obtained the drug and have not had such results 6. Severe dandruff (seborrheic dermatitis) can cause some hair loss and usually after treatmetn the hairs regrow. The condition msut be rather sever to cause such loss.treatmetns such as Nizoral, shampoos with ingredients such as tar, Seleniun sulfide and Salicylic Acid can be very helpful. Sometimes topical steroids can be helpful as well 7. hair loss can be devastating for young men and even older men. Sometimes seking medical/psychological advice can help. it is important to relaize that we can help the vast majority of patient with hair restoration but ultimately you must look toward yourself for confidence and recognize your worth to yourself and others 8. Putting traction on the hairs and pulling it out could ultimately cause hair loss. 9. 22 is a somewhat young age for a hair transplant butwith some of the methods we have there are times when conservative work can be done. Please feel free to contact me Paul T Rose, MD 813 259 9889 612 965 4247 paultrose@yahoo.com getfithairs.com Paul T. Rose, MD, JD President ISHRS Board of Trustees ISCLS Dr. Paul Rose is a member of the Coalition of Independent Hair Restoration Physicians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member taoofjord Posted August 25, 2004 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 25, 2004 Thanks again, everyone, for your responses. I have another question... It seems I have everything going wrong with my head that is possible: -Scaly Dandruff -Hair Loss -Gray Hair I'm getting a good amoutn of gray hair now and I'm thinking about dying it every couple weeks. I want to make sure, however, what dyes are gentle on the scalp and won't worsen my hair loss and dandruff? The last thing I want to do is make those worse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regular Member taoofjord Posted August 29, 2004 Author Regular Member Share Posted August 29, 2004 Can someone please answer my question about hair dye? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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