Unhappy with Eugenix transplant

[AA1989]

10 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

As for NDA’s, I have not seen this document,

You haven't seen it but have you requested the clinic provide you with a copy?

[AA1989]

11 minutes ago, AJ_HT said:

Aren't we supposed to be patient and wait it out till month 12 at least

Yes you're right, it allows the HT on the front and midscalp to have fully evolved. Given you knew that why didn't you wait a few more months and get a complete assessment?

[AJ_HT]

36 minutes ago, AA1989 said:

What does the OP want? I asked the question earlier

I have not received an answer. Indeed, the broader question is what would satisfy the OP and allow them to move on? Ultimately, if the OP can not come to a resolution with the clinic, then he has the option of legal redress, I assume based on misselling/malpractice. I'm sure the clinic would robustly contest this.

Till yesterday, I was not sure of what I wanted. But after seeing how my case has been handled, I definitely don't want to go back for another free/complimentary touch-up.

I don't know. Do clinics offer a refund in such cases?

[Z--]

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

I think we’re now able to compare apples to apples. 

 

I think the community can draw their own conclusions on whether this is a successful repair or not. My point is, we can only expect the clinic to deliver the grafts that have been transplanted. Whether it met your expectations is another topic. Managing expectations is not solely on the clinic. We’re not absolved of research or knowledge as patients. 

Again, 2,500 grafts will not deliver impeccable density. This is a reality. Patients can complain that this wasn’t made clear, but there’s a responsibility as a patient to research beforehand. I don’t believe patients should be treated as children absolved from everything or know-how. I know the consent forms I was sent prior to surgery laid all this out.

It's clearly better - no doubt about that - I've never seen a case where Eugenix makes a patient worse. It's also very commendable that they've already provided a touch-up and are willing to provide additional improvements. Given the improvement and services provided, it does seem insane to receive a refund at this point. Obviously the midscalp can be better, and they've used the 2,500 pretty economically for the front, but I think it will require beard grafts at this point for the area behind. If I were OP, I'd give it one more go.

That said, with all due respect, Melvin, your second point is unfair. If the clinic promised adequate/full density using 2,500 grafts, that isn't on the patient. There's only so much research that we can do and if the clinic is reputable (our job, as smart consumers, is to find these clinics...thankfully this forum provides a good place for that) ultimately we should be able to take their word. This isn't a bad transplant given the low number of grafts used (nor is it as good as the 10/10 results they've typically provided as of late), but there clearly is a disconnect in communication between patient and clinic and its impossible to tell what had been discussed. Seems OP would have been okay using beard grafts to get better coverage, so unless he's trying to scam for free grafts - which seems unlikely - I guess I'm rather confused why there wasn't an agreement between Eugenix (probably best in the world for using those grafts) and patient to use those...?

Edited March 6, 2022 by Z--

[AJ_HT]

Just now, AA1989 said:

Yes you're right, it allows the HT on the front and midscalp to have fully evolved. Given you knew that why didn't you wait a few more months and get a complete assessment?

Guess I trusted that the frontal portion will grow well in 12 months, so didn't think of waiting it out.

[AJ_HT]

1 minute ago, Z-- said:

It's clearly better - no doubt about that - I've never seen a case where Eugenix makes a patient worse. It's also very commendable that they've already provided a touch-up and are willing to provide additional improvements. Given the improvement and services provided, it does seem insane to receive a refund at this point. Obviously the midscalp can be better, and they've used the 2,500 pretty economically for the front, but I think it will require beard grafts at this point for the area behind. If I were OP, I'd either give it one more go.

That said, with all due respect, Melvin, your second point is unfair. If the clinic promised adequate/full density using 2,500 grafts, that isn't on the patient. There's only so much research that we can do and if the clinic is reputable (our job, as smart consumers, is to find these clinics...thankfully this forum provides a good place for that) ultimately we should be able to take their word. This isn't a bad transplant given the low number of grafts used (nor is it as good as the 10/10 results they've typically provided as of late), but there clearly is a disconnect in communication between patient and clinic and its impossible to tell what had been discussed. Seems OP would have been okay using beard grafts to get better coverage, so unless he's trying to scam for free grafts, I guess I'm rather confused why there wasn't an agreement between Eugenix (probably best in the world for using those grafts) and patient to use those...?

That's the thing. They did use 300 grafts from my beard, which is where the argument that my donor density was low, doesn't make sense. If there was a problem with the donor density, my beard grafts were anyway there. How is this a case of he said she said? I had donor hair available in my beard, so the argument that only 2500 grafts could be extracted doesn't seem to fit in, especially when Eugenix is known to do beard hair transplants.

[Ryan Daniel]

The 8 month touch up, was a very very big mistake and it was a silly execution to do. Why was it hard to wait? I genuinely apologize for this statement. 

I remember myself being very unhappy with my result from Turkey, and they simply said that i should just come and get another one, instead of offering me a free touch up.

Anyway....  before the 12-14 month result, there should never be any final judgements or complaints ever. 

As soon as the 12th month finishes, if you are unhappy with the result, you have the right to go to the clinic and demand an explanation(unless they said from the start it wasn't possible to have a full result) or in this case a complementary touch up regarding the front all the way to the mid scalp would have been a very suitable solution.  

 

Another thing I want to add, you might of been going a severe rapidness of hair loss. Meaning any native hair that you had before and after your procedure, may have miniaturized or fallen... leaving you with the end result to be simply just transplanted hairs... giving you a very thin look with the limited grafts 

 

[AJ_HT]

4 minutes ago, Ryan Daniel said:

The 8 month touch up, was a very very big mistake and it was a silly execution to do. Why was it hard to wait? I genuinely apologize for this statement. 

I remember myself being very unhappy with my result from Turkey, and they simply said that i should just come and get another one, instead of offering me a free touch up.

Anyway....  before the 12-14 month result, there should never be any final judgements or complaints ever. 

As soon as the 12th month finishes, if you are unhappy with the result, you have the right to go to the clinic and demand an explanation(unless they said from the start it wasn't possible to have a full result) or in this case a complementary touch up regarding the front all the way to the mid scalp would have been a very suitable solution.  

 

Another thing I want to add, you might of been going a severe rapidness of hair loss. Meaning any native hair that you had before and after your procedure, may have miniaturized or fallen... leaving you with the end result to be simply just transplanted hairs... giving you a very thin look with the limited grafts 

 

Like I said, I'm on finasteride since the first session with Eugenix (Dec 2020), and there is no hairfall now. So my hairloss isn't progressive.

Edited March 6, 2022 by AJ_HT

[asterix0]

@AJ_HT, this is my humble opinion as to your situation. I have tried to review a few more cases and look at your post operative photos carefully.

Here is an example of a high density transplant from a different doctor on a different patient. I think this guy has the hair you are looking for/expecting. 

You can see that the post-op work looks much more high density than your post op photos. 

Here is what I suggest you do. Buzz your head and get a few measuring tapes, and count the hairs in your transplanted area. You were mostly slick bald beforehand in the front so you can assume this to be an accurate assessment of your yield. 

Then, see approximately what your yield in the front was. Then, we can truly assess with objectivity whether your procedure was a success or failure given the number of grafts you were given.

[ITA]

47 minutes ago, RandoBrando517 said:

They didn’t leave the midscalp bald he har grafts there go to the first page

ok, they also grafted in midscalp., but after 8 months nothing had grown back, so @AJ_HTwrote.

[AA1989]

4 minutes ago, AJ_HT said:

That's the thing. They did use 300 grafts from my beard, which is where the argument that my donor density was low, doesn't make sense. If there was a problem with the donor density, my beard grafts were anyway there. How is this a case of he said she said? I had donor hair available in my beard, so the argument that only 2500 grafts could be extracted doesn't seem to fit in, especially when Eugenix is known to do beard hair transplants.

Compare a hair from your head to a hair from your beard. If you are like me and most people, they will be fundamentally different in coarseness, calibre, curl, length, etc. Clinics need to be judicious in their use. Imagine beard hair visible in your hairline. If you check many of the top HT clinics, they refuse to use beard or body hair for scalp transplants.

As you have beard hair on your scalp, can you feel/see the difference?

[AJ_HT]

2 minutes ago, AA1989 said:

Compare a hair from your head to a hair from your beard. If you are like me and most people, they will be fundamentally different in coarseness, calibre, curl, length, etc. Clinics need to be judicious in their use. Imagine beard hair visible in your hairline. If you check many of the top HT clinics, they refuse to use beard or body hair for scalp transplants.

As you have beard hair on your scalp, can you feel/see the difference?

Yes there's a difference. The beard hair is more coarse than scalp hair. But I had seen a video of Dr Arika herself, where she said that when beard hair is used, it is generally done in the mid-scalp and mixed with scalp hair.

I also understand that doing it in the hairline doesn't show very well. But the point is, my midscalp has a mix of beard and scalp hair. If donor density was a problem, the scalp hair could all be used in the hairline rather than mid-scalp. I also think that Melvin and Gatsby have had their transplants done recently using majorly beard hair, if I'm not wrong.

So for Eugenix, using beard hair should not have been a problem, had they needed to.

[Ryan Daniel]

19 minutes ago, AJ_HT said:

Like I said, I'm on finasteride since the first session with Eugenix (Dec 2020), and there is no hairfall now. So my hairloss isn't progressive.

How do you know that AJ ? 

Finasteride isn't 100% guaranteed to work. 

But still, im happy you are on medication for 2 years. It helps the donor area for a future procedure

[AJ_HT]

11 minutes ago, asterix0 said:

@AJ_HT, this is my humble opinion as to your situation. I have tried to review a few more cases and look at your post operative photos carefully.

Here is an example of a high density transplant from a different doctor on a different patient. I think this guy has the hair you are looking for/expecting. 

You can see that the post-op work looks much more high density than your post op photos. 

Here is what I suggest you do. Buzz your head and get a few measuring tapes, and count the hairs in your transplanted area. You were mostly slick bald beforehand in the front so you can assume this to be an accurate assessment of your yield. 

Then, see approximately what your yield in the front was. Then, we can truly assess with objectivity whether your procedure was a success or failure given the number of grafts you were given.

This guy seems to have one of the best density I've seen with transplants. If I even manage to get to 70% of this, I'd be over the moon. Unfortunately, I don't know if I will opt for another procedure.

Counting the hair won't help actually, as I had some thin native hair as well as some transplanted hair from my earlier transplant. So I won't really be able to ascertain which are the latest transplanted ones.

[RandoBrando517]

12 minutes ago, Egy said:

ok, they also grafted in midscalp., but after 8 months nothing had grown back, so @AJ_HTwrote.

Dats why they did a touch up tho what else wer they supposed todo?

[ITA]

12 minutes ago, RandoBrando517 said:

Dats why they did a touch up tho what else wer they supposed todo?

now on the frontline!!! Here, the doctor got his calculations wrong.

Edited March 6, 2022 by Egy

[AJ_HT]

2 minutes ago, Ryan Daniel said:

How do you know that AJ ? 

Finasteride isn't 100% guaranteed to work. 

But still, im happy you are on medication for 2 years. It helps the donor area for a future procedure

I mean, I can see the difference in my hairfall when I shampoo or brush or comb my hair. While I used to see a LOT of strands before I started fin, I see hardly 3-4 strands now while I shampoo. Also, my crown (which was not transplanted) seems to have slightly improved in density. So I'm guessing it's working.

[civic]

As i mentioned earlier, my strong opinion is surgens need to be more selective in cases they can confidently perform. I have yet to see a post where eugenix rejected a candidate. There is another thread by someone currently who underwent 3k grafts with them, which clinic itslef was hesitant on, but proceeded. I am trully concerned for his outcome. 

[asterix0]

8 minutes ago, AJ_HT said:

This guy seems to have one of the best density I've seen with transplants. If I even manage to get to 70% of this, I'd be over the moon. Unfortunately, I don't know if I will opt for another procedure.

Counting the hair won't help actually, as I had some thin native hair as well as some transplanted hair from my earlier transplant. So I won't really be able to ascertain which are the latest transplanted ones.

Those thin native hairs are minuscule, I think you will be surprised at what you see. When you buzz to a low grade you will easily be able to see the thicker transplanted grafts and your almost nonexistent native ones. 

[asterix0]

This is the only true way you will know the yield. All this posturing and hypothesizing how much 2,500 grafts "should" look like will come down to how many (approximately) you actually yielded. Then everyone (including the clinic themselves) will be able to assist you if you so chose to correspond with them again. 

[AA1989]

2 minutes ago, AJ_HT said:

Yes there's a difference. The beard hair is more coarse than scalp hair. But I had seen a video of Dr Arika herself, where she said that when beard hair is used, it is generally done in the mid-scalp and mixed with scalp hair.

I also understand that doing it in the hairline doesn't show very well. But the point is, my midscalp has a mix of beard and scalp hair. If donor density was a problem, the scalp hair could all be used in the hairline rather than mid-scalp. I also think that Melvin and Gatsby have had their transplants done recently using majorly beard hair, if I'm not wrong.

So for Eugenix, using beard hair should not have been a problem, had they needed to.

I'm no authority on the use of beard hair, so I defer to those with more experience. Beard hair, like any other donor area, is a limited resource. How much supply of beard hair is available after removing 300 grafts? 

Even if you have an additional supply of beard hair it doesn't follow that you can free up scalp hair to go in the front while using beard in the mid-scalp. The integration of scalp hair and beard hair allows the illusion to work. Use less scalp hair in the midscalp and things turn odd very quickly.

Not only is beard hair a problem for the reasons above, but it is also has poor coverage. Unlike scalp hair, you don't get 3 and 4 hair grafts.

Maybe I know more about beard hair than I thought😊

 

[RandoBrando517]

1 hour ago, Egy said:

now on the frontline!!! Here, the doctor got his calculations wrong.

They already said they would replace hair but dont wanna go back so what they supposed to do force him?

[NARMAK]

4 minutes ago, RandoBrando517 said:

They already said they would replace hair but dont wanna go back so what they supposed to do force him?

The replacement of hair planted isn't the issue here i believe for OP. It's that at month 8 he felt no need to raise the issue of density as 4 more months worth of growth was expected to evaluate a new enough 99% final result. 

Now at month 12 the final result is visible and the density doesn't seem to adequately create the illusion of density expected. So there appears to have been a miscalculation on the requirement of grafts. 

I do think the onus falls moreso on a clinic to either adequately estimate the required grafts given hair calibre etc. or when they have had a candid conversation with a patient, for them to make an informed decision on whether to proceed if it was explicitly mentioned the density will not be where it should be. 

[shiba1985]

No surgeon on this planet can with 100% guarantee a perfect result. The best any surgeon can do is give it their 100%. From the pics it shows that clearly the grafts that were placed grew (at least most of them). 

I think the problem here is probably expectations. The patient had expectations that were high, and the clinic assumed that the patients expectations were modest. What else is the clinic supposed to do when in that situation. All they can do is offer to place more grafts if available. Should a clinic start refunding money every time a patient doesn't subjectively like a result? 

The poster's statement "i am on finasteride now, so my hair loss is not progressive" gives me a clue into the fact that the patient either doesnt understand the reality of androgenetic alopecia or is just not come to terms with it. 

 

[shiba1985]

The pics that Melvin has posted obtained from the clinic show what I would say atleast AVERAGE results.  I am not saying this is a home run, but I don't think this is something that warrants a refund either. Plus it appears to be a no shave placement.  This will always be technically challenging, and may lead to more shock loss of native hair if not done with precision.