Possible Propecia user--serious OCD--worried about side effects

[SERIOUS]

It would be nice to tell people what exactly type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase ,does in our bodies,so they can make informed decision to inhibit it for the cost of hair,or not.

 

Swim36, Why don't you do just that?

 

Before you hijack this thread even more...

[swim]

My screen name is swim.

 

Not swim36.

 

I too can be creative in changing your screen name into various alternatives. Would you like that?

 

And I posted links, so who wants can read what people smarter and more informed,than me and ,I think you, on that subject,wrote about it.

I leave to the readers, to judge did I hijack the thread.

[SERIOUS]

It would be nice to tell people what exactly type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase ,does in our bodies,so they can make informed decision to inhibit it for the cost of hair,or not.

 

 

C'mon swim... make an effort...

 

you can't just disappear behind a wall of mixed-up links that you can't even explain when you're asked for...

 

Go ahead and explain it all to us.

 

No links, just cheese.

 

Also, you still didn't answer a simple question that Bill asked you.

 

That makes 2 questions you failed to answer...

 

hmmmmmm...

[swim]

The doctors should make that effort, when someone asks medical questions, like joebronson did.

 

The links are not mixed. Check the last link, the one that has the gov. in its address. It is from the U.S. National library of medicine.

 

You want cheese?

 

You see, in the old days, before TV, newspapers ,and internet, people went to aunt Sally and uncle Serious (another Serious,not you),to learn the last news and seek advices. This days, every info is readily available.

 

You don't like to read?

 

Who am I related to? And who am not related to?

 

What if i asked you are you related to Mickey mouse?That is not cool right?So,I am not asking you that.

 

I am not going to waste my time with you any more.

 

Joebronson,read the links, they come from credible web sites. And decide your self what is worth what to you.

[Bill - Seemiller]

swim,

 

Not to be mean, but you're really not making a lot of sense on this thread. You're babbling incoherently and it's hard to follow. Also, when you're quoting someone, use the following parameters without the spaces.

 

[ quote]place text here[ /quote]

 

That way it will be a whole lot easier to differentiate your response from actual quotes from others.

 

Bill

[swim]

Bill,

 

When giving an advice about medical condition, dilemma concerning medical question, using prescription drugs, etc... one has to earn the right to be wrong.

 

Two doctors may disagree about should one (example young man) use a drug, lets say finasteride.One might be right and the other wrong.

 

But the wrong one has earned his right to give that young man his opinion about matter that concerns medical problem, for he has studied the subject earnestly and at length. And the right to be wrong in this instance, can be won only this way.

 

Because when someone, like Mr.Serious, tells people

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...=307103642#307103642

 

Things like this:

 

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying to EVERYBODY that has adverse effects with finasteride... JUST SKIP A DAY when you have sides coming back (after a withdrawal period if necessary, with gradual dosage when restarting)

 

For some reason, some people think it's coincidental and that method does'nt work... but it-just-does-work. Maybe I should patent that method, write a book, and guarantee the results... and make tons of money in the process (joking)

 

Some will keep using finasteride and start to use all these supplements to deal with the side effects of finasteride, while in fact they just mess even more with the fragile balance of their hormonal system.

 

The human body is quite phenomenal and complex. We should trust its unique ability to re-establish its hormonal balance naturally after these kind of events.

 

 

Or this:

 

I would not change anything and reassess in 6 months. Sounds like completely normal... Finasteride probably have nothing to do with this

 

Or this

 

The incidence of side effects that would "worsen" after stopping use must certainly be much below 0,1%. No official studies for these numbers, but since the official numbers for side effects "on" meds are around 2% (though debatable to a certain extent), trust me they should be "that" low for "worsening" after stopping.

(who's going to want to pay for a study with such an incredibly low incidence anyway).

 

So yes, he is pushing very far...

 

Like I would be pushing very far to worry about making a woman that is sterile pregnant while using a double condom and her using a contraceptive pill.

 

and so on??¦.

 

 

Then Bill such young man, will follow Mr.Serious advice, seriously.

 

But you don't have a problem with that. You have a problem with me .Right?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Swim,

 

What?

 

My post to you had nothing to do with the debate or my view on it. It was to encourage you to use proper tags that will make your posts more readable and sensical.

 

Frankly however, I see nothing wrong with Serious' advice. However, I can't substantiate his percentages. Your question asking him to validate them was appropriate.

 

In reading back in your posts, I can see you're very passionate about this subject. However, I still don't know what you're trying to say. Are you saying Serious is minimizing the potential of side effects with finasteride?

 

Bill

[swim]

Originally posted by Bill - Associate Publisher:

Swim,

 

What?

 

My post to you had nothing to do with the debate or my view on it. It was to encourage you to use proper tags that will make your posts more readable and sensical.

 

Frankly however, I see nothing wrong with Serious' advice. However, I can't substantiate his percentages. Your question asking him to validate them was appropriate.

 

In reading back in your posts, I can see you're very passionate about this subject. However, I still don't know what you're trying to say. Are you saying Serious is minimizing the potential of side effects with finasteride?

 

Bill

 

Not as passionate as you may think. I don't use the drug.

 

I never thought I am difficult to follow but, if you say so,ok.I have nothing to add. What I "tried" to say, I did.

 

You could summarize it in this:

 

We do not miss what we lack ( hair) nearly as much as what we are deprived of (SRD5A2,it is a gene ).

What I mean is,when you lost something,you are sad,maybe upset.When something is taken away from you,when you had your eyes closed,you are pissed

Nobody misses an eye at the back of his head, but everyone would feel deprived if he lost one eye in front.

It is the taking away SRD5A2(or inhibiting,)that could upset us more, (only if we knew ,and were told what it is) than the not having hair in the first place.

[SERIOUS]

Thanks for quoting me out of the original context swim... But I would not retract a single word.

[SERIOUS]

So I asked for cheese, and you serve me an old smelly camembert... fine swim.

 

Now in retrospect, since you "conveniently" changed your version in every single post and improvised your way through this thread (absolutely amazes me, just re-read yourself, it's scary) and avoided simple questions in every possible way, as well as just flashed some random links out of google that you could not even explain when asked for, I just can't help but arrive to the conclusion that your credibility in this matter is very low, and that your hidden purpose in this thread was just to provoke and awkwardly try to find answers to questions you still have on this matter.

That's all fine... that being said, next time please try to do it in a less confusing way, and with more objectivity maybe?

 

Objectivity, or the art of looking in many directions to get a broader perspective of a matter, can lead to much more interesting and constructive interactions.

No resentment whatsoever swim, and sincerely all the best.

 

 

Now swim... since you avoided every single questions I asked, can you please answer this very simple one by a very simple yes or no?

 

Are you, or did you ever used the name john36 ?

 

Yes? or no?

 

Thanks

[swim]

The original context can be seen if one follows the links of your posts. Stop giving DIRECT advice to young man, how to use prescription drugs. That is a job for a doctor.

 

...never mind,you may learn,someday, somehow,from someone else,that what you do is not cool.I am taping out.

[swim]

Originally posted by SERIOUS:

 

Now in retrospect, since you "conveniently" changed your version in every single post and improvised your way through this thread ...

 

 

I never changed my version,prove that I did.

[swim]

Originally posted by SERIOUS:

(absolutely amazes me, just re-read yourself, it's scary)

 

You,don't worry about that part.

[thanatopsis_awry]

IMHO, Swim isn't John36; though I do see a certain similarity in style (I've always thought swim was foreign/non-US), Swim strikes me as more intelligent, seasoned, and not loaded with an agenda. Maybe I'm wrong, but....

 

I also actually enjoyed this thread and it got me thinking a good bit, even though I'm still not entirely sure of everything that was said; SERIOUS, mmhce, and swim too raised some challenging points, even if the debate got a bit convoluted and difficult to discern at times (swim, bro, listen to Bill and use proper tags ).

 

Not the easiest read by any stretch of the imagination, but I appreciate that SERIOUS and Co. didn't back down.

[mmhce]

I aggree with thana that "swim" is intelligent, but I have to side with Bill and admit that his arguments are hard to follow and it seems to me that "swim" is mixing up metabolized hormones and genes.

[swim]

Originally posted by mmhce:

I aggree with thana that "swim" is intelligent, but I have to side with Bill and admit that his arguments are hard to follow and it seems to me that "swim" is mixing up metabolized hormones and genes.

 

All right, maybe I was not as clear as I am ought to be, and could be.

 

I used ???Serious??? own statements mmhce, as to the accounts given to type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase.

 

Please go back on the first page and look who used it first. He said that

By the way, finasteride doesn't "block" DHT as you say... Finasteride will selectively inhibit the type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase only. It will not eliminate (or block) DHT at all, it will only reduce it to some extent, which varies from person to person, and varies with time, considering the tolerance effect we develop with any medication.

 

After you did that, and you agree with him, try to post a reference, or a link to a web site which can be used as a reference, where type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase is described as a metabolized hormone. If you can, then I mixed up metabolized hormones and genes.

 

 

Here I will make the same effort to post links that will take you to credible source where type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase is described as a gene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRD5A2

 

 

http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/gene=srd5a2

 

In fact, since you are very knowledgeable on this type of things, you should know that isoenzymes are isoforms (closely related variants) of enzymes. In many cases, they are coded for by homologous genes that have diverged over time. Although, strictly speaking, allozymes represent enzymes from different alleles of the same gene, and isozymes represent enzymes from different genes that process or catalyse the same reaction, the two words are usually used interchangeably.

 

Also,what is inhibit

http://education.yahoo.com/ref...ionary/entry/inhibit

 

and what is to block

 

http://education.yahoo.com/ref...ctionary/entry/block

 

(look under no.16),in medical terminology are used interchangeably.(But we can use inhibit,doesn't change anything.)

 

 

Type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase has nothing to do with metabolized hormones.

 

The burden of proof now is on you to do this:

To post reference where type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase is named metabolized hormone.

[Blond]

Here I will make the same effort to post links that will take you to credible source where type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase is described as a gene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRD5A2

 

What? I can't make any sense of what you lot are arguing about! It seems that you're all too bothered about who appears smarter behind your computer screens. Let's keep it simple and accurate so people can understand. First of all SRD5A2 is the gene that encodes for production of type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase.Type 2 isoenzyme of 5a-reductase is an enzyme that catalyses conversion of T to DHT. Both T and DHT are steroid hormones and can be considered as hormone metabolites.

[swim]

Hi Blondie.

 

Please go here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finasteride

 

where it is stated

 

Finasteride (marketed as Proscar, Propecia, Fincar, Finpecia, Finax, Finast, Finara, Finalo, Prosteride, Gefina, Appecia, Finasterid IVAX, Finasterid Alternova) is a synthetic antiandrogen which acts by inhibiting type II 5-alpha reductase, the enzyme that converts testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT).

 

Then in the same quoted space,click on the words 5-alpha reductase.It is a link that takes you here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-alpha_reductase

 

On that page it states

 

Isoenzymes

There are two isoenzymes, steroid 5-alpha reductase 1 and 2 (SRD5A1 and SRD5A2).[1][2]

The second isoenzyme is deficient in 5-alpha-reductase deficiency which leads to a form of intersexualism.

In the quoted space click on the word SRD5A2.It is a link that takes you here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRD5A2

 

where of course, SRD5A2,is described as a gene.

 

I have not had a clue what is SRD5A2,so when Serious mentioned it I wanted to see.

 

Wiki did the rest.

[swim]

Originally posted by Blondie:

 

What? I can't make any sense of what you lot are arguing about! It seems that you're all too bothered about who appears smarter behind your computer screens.

 

You are probably right there. But that was not my initial intent.

My point was independent of the fact What gets blocked/inhibited. It is to do with the fact Why, (for what purpose), is inhibited. It is to do also with the fact why it is established terminology that "side effect" of propecia is considered when someone "notices" adverse changes within his body. Only when someone "experiences' adverse changes within his body.Only when someone "reports" adverse changes within his body?

 

Every day ,since the time we were born, we all "get" changes within our bodies, that we did not notice, or "experience".

Why is not simply stated that adverse effect of propecia is the fact that.(put in this space what gets inhibited)...gets inhibited.

 

And that "thing" gets inhibited 99% of the time,not 2% of the time.We all know that because 99% of the time, propecia works to help grow hair.The studies show that fact.

 

And it works, only in one way, by inhibiting the ".(put here whatever that is).." in our body, and we may notice that, or may not.

 

So, why is 'only' if we notice it ,a side effect (adverse effect)?

 

Who determines what for one is adverse effect?

And, more important, how would one determine, make that decision?Based on what?Info,am I right?

 

I think only if he gets properly informed and all that is explained to him.

 

But no, someone decided that only if you notice the adverse change, you qualify to claim 'I have adverse effect. Tons of people walk around with effect from propecia that "they" might consider adverse but they don't know that, because it was never explained to them.

 

Can you explain to me Blondie why is that?

 

Because ,when I read what mechanism is triggered by propecia use,I get cold sweat

changes in my body. I will never touch that stuff

[swim]

And, why I engaged Serious?

 

Because, he jumps on every poster that expresses concern with Propecia use. Tells people "how" to use propecia. Makes funny analogies of people concerned with side effects etc.

 

That is not cool.

 

I would never do that.

 

Really, that is something a doctor can give advice or explain.

 

Bill said I am passionate about this subject. I really am not. I became interested in it few days ago. And after reading I reaffirmed my personal belief, I will not mess with it for the cost of hair. If I had prostate enlargement, yes. For hair, no.

 

So I am really typing off the subject.

[Blond]

But no, someone decided that only if you notice the adverse change, you qualify to claim 'I have adverse effect. Tons of people walk around with effect from propecia that "they" might consider adverse but they don't know that, because it was never explained to them.

 

Hi Swim,

 

With regards, I don't really have the time to read all of Wikipedia definitions. Wikipedia is full of errors and is not peer reviewed.

 

A side effect, as the name implies, is an additional outcome of a drugs action on the body, which was not intended for therapeutic treatment. That does not mean, as Wikipedia might have you believe, that it is always a bad outcome. In fact many drug discoveries are made through apparent 'side effects'. Both Minoxidil and finasteride are examples. Finasteride which was initially marketed to shrink enlarged prostates (as proscar) is now marketed to treat MPB (as propecia). A side effect of proscar has become the intended implication for propecia usage. A bad side effect??¦ most of us would say not!!

 

As for the whole, 'I feel like I have a side effect but don't realise it's a side effect thing', I'm not sure I fully understand. Basically, side effects are documented by physicians during phases of drug trials. However, post-drug trials (i.e. phase V) there are ways to update the drug side effect list. If enough people are having additional side effects than what is already listed, they can demand their physician to report it to the medical counsel. If a person has a side effect but does not realise it is a side effect then it is still a side effect, just unnoticed??¦??¦.

[swim]

Hi Blondie

 

With regards, I don't really have the time to read all of Wikipedia definitions. Wikipedia is full of errors and is not peer reviewed

 

That is very probable. You gentleman with the PhD's from time to time please, let them know about those errors so they can update.

 

That does not mean, as Wikipedia might have you believe, that it is always a bad outcome

 

yes, not always, but in this instance yes. Unless you can tell me why something that makes s man, strong and potent, when gets inhibited, as in this instance is a fact, is a good outcome.

 

A side effect of proscar has become the intended implication for propecia usage. A bad side effect??¦ most of us would say not!!

 

 

most of us don't know about the mechanism triggered.

 

If a person has a side effect but does not realise it is a side effect then it is still a side effect, just unnoticed??¦??¦.

 

my point exactly.

 

Take care Blondie and thank you for your reply.

 

Swim

[TC17]

I've been on propecia for almost 7 months now and have had no success. I haven't had any side effects, but I haven't regrown any hair either, and I would venture a guess and say that AT BEST, I may have slowed down my loss. I say at best because the hair loss was so gradual to begin with, that I never could tell anyway. However, I was out in the sun for a full day just recently, and my hair has now thinned to the point where I received a sunburn all over the scalp. That has NEVER happened before this summer.

[Blond]

most of us don't know about the mechanism triggered

 

Swim,

 

Thank you for your kind response. I'm pretty sure that all the mechanisms that are activated (or disturbed) whilst taking finasteride aren't known. For some people this drug can do wonders without significantly altering their biological homeostasis (to the point where one notices unwanted side effects) and for some it causes a hormonal imbalance that is not well tolerated.

 

I agree that higher levels of DHT most likely do make you more masculine; however, reducing it for some does not seem to significantly alter their ability to function as a man. It's a matter of individual response that is unfortunately under current circumstances unpredictable.

 

TC17,

 

There are many reasons why finasteride may not be working well for you. Perhaps you are just too much of a man to be altered by it. Whilst also lets not forget that DHT alone is unlikely to be the only factor involved in hair loss. Let's just hope for more alternative treatments.

[follicle girl]

Hey Joe,

I have been a hair transplant technician for the past 19 years. I for a dermatologist. We have prescribing Propecia to patients for over 15 years. Out of those 15 years, 2 patients have said that while they were on the drug, they didn't feel as aggresive sexually as they'd like. So they stopped the drug ane everything was fine. You might experience some side effects initially when starting the drug, but try it a bit longer, I've never heard of side effects continuing after the drug was stopped, to see if that feeling subsides or not. People kinda of put it in their mind that they are experiencing these side effects, when they're really not. Every drug on the market has side effects, but because Propecia list less libido as one side effect, everyone freaks out, when in reallity only about 1% experience this. Aspirin has side effects for some people, does that mean it's not a good drug for the majority of the population? Propecia is relatively a safe drug with no long term complications. I've seen Propecia drastically slow down the balding pattern from developing, it's worth another try. Try taking it every other day, it may lessen any side effects, and still give the help you need with your hair loss.

All my best

follicle girl