Heres a idea regarding technician led fue clinics

[1966kph]

I think my previous post should answer this question.

Have a good day

[PupDaddy]

Dr. Maral performs his aesthetic surgery operations at other times when there are no HT operations or after they finish.

 

Then why does Dr. Maral not directly participate in the clinic's FUE hair transplant surgeries?

 

Has Dr. Maral ever performed FUE hair transplant surgeries? For how long? How many?

 

When did the Maral Klinic start offering FUE hair transplant surgeries performed entirely by technicians? Where did these technicians come from? Who trained them? What is their experience?

[PupDaddy]

OK I will just run a scenario by you for your input if you would please?

 

Dr Koray erdogan decides he wants to step back and just have a supervising role during procedures.

He trains his technicians personally and feels 100% confident in their capabilities.

They carry on with this setup and produce results that both Dr erdogan and his patients are very happy with should he have his recommendation revoked here?

/QUOTE]

 

In my opinion, yes. If a ht surgeon can't be bothered to AT LEAST create the recipient sites for the FUE grafts, I do no believe that surgeon or his/her clinic ought to be recommended by this site. Personally, I would prefer that the surgeon be required to perform the extractions and to place/seat at least the hairline grafts, but I am afraid that ship has sailed. I would absolutely draw the line at a clinic allowing the cosmetically and artistically critical task of creating the recipient sites to be passed off to a technician.

[1966kph]

Hello pup.

All of these are relevant questions that should the maral clinic be pre screened should be addressed and I would assume that bill or pat will ask them.

Maybe bill could update the community as to whether Dr maral has answered any or all of these questions.

Have a good day

[1966kph]

So pup apart from the medical training what sets surgeons apart from the techs?

Artistry ?

[PupDaddy]

I think that whether Dr maral has sufficient experience personally performing HT surgery and that he feels that the training,experience and results his team are producing are of a high standard.are of paramount concern and he obviously thinks they are.

 

 

How would one conclude that "high standards" are the "paramount concern" of a surgeon, be it Dr. Maral or another surgeon, who would turn a cosmetic surgery over to a group of non-physician technicians while the surgeon is doing god knows what and whose only involvement is an occasional walk-by to ask if everything is going okay?

 

It seems to me that if high standards were the paramount concern, either the surgeon would dedicate himself/herself to learning and perfecting top-notch hair transplantation and/or hire the finest hair transplant surgeon available to perform these procedures for the clinic. At the very least, the surgeon should assist in putting the purportedly talented head technician through medical school. Oh, wait -- if any of these steps were taken, the surgeon couldn't leverage cheap, non-physician labor into a veritable hair transplant factory.

 

You keep referring to "results [Dr. Maral's] team are producing" being of a "high standard." What results are you talking about? Immediate post-op is not a "result." I have yet to see a single result (12-18 months post op, or even 8-12 months post op) of this clinic, let alone a body of results that would allow an assessment of the consistency and quality of the work being turned out. Even if acceptable results could eventually be provided, I still would oppose the recommendation of any clinic where hair restoration surgeries are preformed entirely by non-physician technicians.

[1966kph]

Pup.

Abcd is around the 12 month mark is his a good bad or inferior HT.that is just 1 but there are several have a look through them give a honest opinion on the results from maral compared to several recommended docs here and I think the results stack up well against any of them.

Even bill stated that he is achieving good results is he a good or bad judge?

Every one is a individual that can choose were they go all I am saying is that if this community could put the options available including technicians led teams what harm is there in that.

Have a good day

[KO]

I feel Bill spoke too soon, and with all due respect, is mistaken.

[PupDaddy]

Pup.

Abcd is around the 12 month mark is his a good bad or inferior HT.

 

The quality of abcd's self-taken photos are so poor that I am unable to tell anything about his 10-month progress other than he appears to have some hair on top of his head. His crown and vertex are obviously thin, judging from the single relatively clear photo of that area. The rest is unknown. There are no clear, properly lit, close-up photos of the hairline work or of the top, temples, or sides. It is impossible to tell whether this single case is quality work, comparable to that of the body of work posted by recommended clinics and their patients. One thing is for certain: no ht physician or clinic has been recommended here based on a single case, and if the poor, blurry photos of this lone 10-month result is the best that can be offered on behalf of the FUE work being turned out by the technicians working for the Maral Klinic, I would say that your idea of a separate recommendation status for technician-only FUE clinics is moot anyway.

[1966kph]

There are approximately 15 cases on the first 2 or 3 pages of fue cases but they are admittly not at the 12 month mark.

I think you must have unrealistic expectations of what can be achieved on a norwood 7 with 4800 grafts. Abcd,s hair is thin but anyone with realistic expectations wood know this and would understand that a second procedure would be nessasry.

But my or your opinion does not matter its the individual the patients that are happy and that is all that matters to them.

How many of marals patients here are happy or unhappy with their results the over whelming majority are happy and who are you I or anyone else to show anything but pleasure that they are happy.

You obviously do not believe there is any place here for these types of clinics but there are people here that obviously disagree.

You don't need to go to one of these clinics but there are people that have very few options why would you deny them the opportunity?.

I chose a long time ago not to ever undergo a Fut procedure but I would never preach to others that they should take the same stance.

Have a good day

[KO]

People are free to choose those clinics but that doesn't mean they should be recommended here.

[1966kph]

Neither does it mean they shouldn't be.

Have a good day

[scar5]

Is pressure going to be put on the forum owners by the current recommended doctors to dismiss potential recommendation of clinics doing fue were the technicians do the work under the supervision of a doctor at a 10th of their prices?

 

Perhaps, I doubt it

 

I am more inclined to believe membership/endorsement is seen as an advertising gimmick and that plain numbers of inquiries justify the fees, like advertising in a newspaper.

 

Docs have their private misgivings, but they vent them through other channels.

It would be cheap for a clinic or association of clinics, or even HTN, to hire a lawyer to establish whether or not technician extraction or incision is breaking existing laws in a particular territory, and yet they don't do it. Live and let live, let the good times roll, I would say.

[Sean]

Some top docs here also allow technicians to extract FUE, with multiple patient procedures a day. Wouldn't multiple procedures a day tire out any physician to operate with maximum efficiency? When paying premium pricing for a top doc, are we paying for Tech skill or solely Doc skill? Techs aren't really recommended on forums, but docs are. How do we know what tech has how many x years of skill, licenses, trainings, photo results?

[Blake Bloxham]

Sean,

 

You bring up a good point - and I think something I touched on before: if we recommend a physician and suddenly the physician leaves the practice or stops operating, we would know. If we recommend a clinic owned by a physician but run by technicians, it is much harder to tell if personnel are leaving, if new technicians are operating, et cetera. The physician could fire his entire team, bring in a new one the next day, and the general public would be none the wiser as long as the doctor's name was still on the door.

[Sean]

When there are multiple procedures and multiple techs, with some extracting FUE, I think it is worrisome. Especially, when some techs may be young, like recently graduated students, that may be involved in procedures of such caliber, precision, and artistry. If Doctor does less than 40% extractions but leaves it to another technician, will that impact results? Because of this factor, doesnt it make it impossible to authentically recommend who is top doc and who isn't?

 

I think a very valid questions to those concerned would be:

Doctor, do you have more than one procedure a day, how about 3 or more?

Doctor, do you have multiple techs in 3 or more operating rooms per day?

Doctor, does anyone of your techs extract my grafts?

Doctor, on day of my procedure, will highly experienced techs work on me or newcomers/trainees?

 

More questions should be asked before you pay your deposit to any clinic, especially if you are paying premium pricing per graft above other 'recommended' docs. it is always best to have an answer in writing, to document everything. These forums inform us of the doctor/business person behind the clinic, not , if anything on ALL techs that work there, that do like 70% of the work. i mean, when it comes to fue, if a doc is creating just recipient sites, extracting less than 40% grafts, and the rest is done by technicians, including graft placement, then why pay premium pricing?

[1966kph]

Sean and Future very good points.

Apart from the doctor that you would research into how many people actually knew anything about the rest of the team involved?

Seen as how this could have such a massive bearing on the final result for the patients should it not be that on clinic web sites for instance have a page / pages with the back round of the whole staff or at least the ones that are going to be hands on during a procedure?

As you say Sean

training,

how many years experience

qualifications if any

how many years at this clinic. ect ect ect it all bodes well for you to ask these questions and if your not satisfied look elsewhere.

The choice is yours no one else's and make the wrong one and your original problem of hair loss may seem a walk in the park.

Research Research Research to try and glean as much information as possible about who will be doing all parts of the procedure.

How many cases have we seen over the years were desperate people have paid out a fortune to end up horribly disfigured and its ruined the lives totally.

Its a individuals choice were one goes now you can break the bank and go $10 or more per graft or less than $0.50 its up to you but do your research.

All have a good day

[KO]

Ahh....I see, it seems that 1966kph is primarily concerned with admitting low-cost clinics here..

[1966kph]

Wrong KO i am not here promoting any cheap or expensive clinic

What i am trying to do as should us all is to address a problem of clinics such as in this quote below hurting vulnerable people with no other option than to go to cheaper clinics.

Do i condone these clinics i most certainly do not.

Do i condemn these clinics i most certainly do.

The statement quote just goes to show the extent of the problem and going off the figures.

If one clinic works 5 days a week and works on just one person and is open 45 weeks of the year that then.over the 500 clinics that's 112500 people that are put at risk of harm.

What i have said time and time again is that a tech led clinic under the supervision of a dr should after under taking a pre screening process having shown consistently good results should be reccomended in a separate catogory to steer people away from these clinics.

I think we should all be duty bound as a caring community to help one another.Protect and advise one another.

So ko your above statement not only offends me but is completely missing the point.

 

Quote from dr karadeniz

Join Date: Mar 2014

Posts: 31

Last Online: Yesterday 04:47 PM

Default HAIR TRANSPLANT IN TURKEY: Overview by Dr. Karadeniz

Dear Members and Future HT Candidates,

 

I am writing this short overview about how things work in Turkey hoping that it will be useful for future candidates. As a relatively new member to the forum I am seeing a lot of wild discussions going on at multiple threads about HT in Turkey. I will try and give objective information, avoiding being for or against any clinics in Turkey as I am a Turkish plastic surgeon and hair surgeon myself.

 

It is estimated that there are about 500 hair transplant teams or clinics in Turkey; therefore this country has been one of the main centres in the world for hair surgery and attracting many patients around the globe. The two main characteristics of hair surgery are that the prices are very cheap and surgical teams solely consist of technicians and staff from various backgrounds such as nurses, ambulance paramedics, anaesthesiology technicians, cardiovascular surgery pump technicians, car mechanists, secretaries and even housewives! Hair transplants are not perceived as surgical procedures by this nation and are treated like going for a hair cut. A Turkish billionaire who drives a 1 million Euro car will hope to have a HT for 1000 Euros!

 

There are around 10 medical doctors in Turkey that actually do parts of the surgery such as graft harvesting and recipient site incisions. The remaining 490 teams do not have a doctor that is a part of the operation. Not surprisingly FUE is the only technique used by these teams. They quickly teach each other how to drill down the patients scalp to extract grafts and the teams multiply in number rapidly. To my knowledge there are only 4 clinics left in Turkey that are able to do FUT. Despite being a huge HT country, there are about 30-40 technicians in Turkey that know how to prepare grafts from a skin strip. There are 4-5 technicians that are trained to do slivering; that is less than the number of hair surgeons! The financial balance between the two techniques are altered and it is 3-4 times more expensive for a Turkish clinic to be able to offer FUT, compared to FUE.

 

Under these circumstances, is it a good idea to go for a HT in Turkey? I think it is as long as you know what you are buying.

What do you buy when you go for a HT in one of the technicians FUE clinics and who should go for it? This is what you are going to get: Technicians will aggressively drill down through your scalp for about 5000-6000 times. You can usually see this if you look at immediate postop photos of the donor area. The transection rate is going to be 50-70%, which means you will get 2000-4000 grafts that are severely transected. These grafts will be placed but will show growth less than expected. About 2000 grafts will have disappeared due to total transection. Since partially transected grafts grow some hair, there will be significant improvement despite the wasted grafts. Since these technicians have a very primitive knowledge of recipient site incisions, it will usually look unnatural, or at least too widely spread. The major problem will be at the donor area. When a Turkish technicians operates on your donor area, the donor is mostly finished. Most patients will have significant moth-eaten appearances at the donor area. Patients who have a very strong donor might still not show signs of weakness and permit another session of FUE, but that will be it. There is no hope of doing 3 or 4 procedures. I usually do only FUT if I know a Turkish technician has operated on a patient. I have tried many times to do FUE after a technician and failed to get anything.

Now is this acceptable for a patient? It can be if the patient just wants some hair on his head and feels that he has no hope of getting a proper one in his life time.

 

If the above scenario doesn't suit you, is there a better option in Turkey? Certainly; the 10 doctors in Turkey including the 2 recommended surgeons on this network can provide excellent HT procedures for a much cheaper price than their counterparts in Europe and USA. The only difficulty is to find them, because they typically are much smaller companies than the large technicians clinics who do 10-20 procedures a day. These boutique clinics have a hard time surviving in the market due to the wide unlicensed competition with very low prices. Doing these procedures for even double the price of the technicians doesn't make it a very profitable business, considering that they can do only 1 patient a day. They don't have much of an advertising budget. Agents usually prefer to work with technicians to get more customers and make more profit. So only the patients can find these boutique clinics.

 

I think this is enough information on summarising this topic. I once again want to emphasise that I do not want to be involved in any competition with other clinics and have no intentions of advertising my own. I hope it will serve as a guidance to future patients.

 

Regards,

Dr. Ali Emre Karadeniz

 

And apart from turkey were else does this practice go on?

And KO dont try and suggest anything about me,you dont know me and never will my only intention is trying to be compassionate towards others and try and see no harm comes to them and the matter of cost is secondary.maybe you would be better taking this same approach to life.

All have a nice day

Edited November 6, 2014 by 1966kph

[mongoal]

I had a FUE 4 years ago by a clinic in mexico, the physician did some extraction and some placement but much was done by the techs. I have a medical background and to say FUE is some sort of a operation would be exaggerated. Its more like a more invasive tattoo with care given to the extracted grafts.

 

My personal 2000 FUE took a few hours of actual work, they used pens to insert the grafts, I have zero scars. I was norwood 3/4 if I remember right. I think the cost was $5k. You'd would have to be fairly incompetent to screw up and FUE. They use a punch in the direction of the hair and pull it out, put it in a tray of fluid, trim it keep it cool. Anyone can draw a line a line on your head and poke holes inside the area calculating the density any dummy can do as well. I think a physician should be at least involved in case of an accident and make sure the extraction is being done correctly and placing them is proper depth etc.

 

The patient also needs to be semi intelligent, agree with the hairline and question their concerns. To say FUE is some sort of a "serious invasive procedure" is going a bit overboard. FUT is some serious cutting. everyone has personally cut themselves on accident that required stitches, "required stitches". Nothing like stitches is required by FUE. Although 2000 tiny pokes accumulated looks awful, the rear of your head holes close up almost within hours.

 

My FUE looks as good as any ive seen here (using a pen), better than most in faxt with 2000 grafts covering 4x3 inch area. Its getting a bit thinner now that I've lost some of the hair from my non-transplanted hair in the area.

 

I would think any FUE clinic should have a physician overseeing the procedure, does that mean the whole time? absolutely not. Jumping in everything 30 minutes to supervise would suffice. I would think the doctor in question probably does that.

[Sean]

I had a FUE 4 years ago by a clinic in mexico, the physician did some extraction and some placement but much was done by the techs. I have a medical background and to say FUE is some sort of a operation would be exaggerated. Its more like a more invasive tattoo with care given to the extracted grafts.

 

My personal 2000 FUE took a few hours of actual work, they used pens to insert the grafts, I have zero scars. I was norwood 3/4 if I remember right. I think the cost was $5k. You'd would have to be fairly incompetent to screw up and FUE. They use a punch in the direction of the hair and pull it out, put it in a tray of fluid, trim it keep it cool. Anyone can draw a line a line on your head and poke holes inside the area calculating the density any dummy can do as well. I think a physician should be at least involved in case of an accident and make sure the extraction is being done correctly and placing them is proper depth etc.

 

The patient also needs to be semi intelligent, agree with the hairline and question their concerns. To say FUE is some sort of a "serious invasive procedure" is going a bit overboard. FUT is some serious cutting. everyone has personally cut themselves on accident that required stitches, "required stitches". Nothing like stitches is required by FUE. Although 2000 tiny pokes accumulated looks awful, the rear of your head holes close up almost within hours.

 

My FUE looks as good as any ive seen here (using a pen), better than most in faxt with 2000 grafts covering 4x3 inch area. Its getting a bit thinner now that I've lost some of the hair from my non-transplanted hair in the area.

 

I would think any FUE clinic should have a physician overseeing the procedure, does that mean the whole time? absolutely not. Jumping in everything 30 minutes to supervise would suffice. I would think the doctor in question probably does that.

 

What doctor did your fue? Do you have any before and after results? When you say pen, do you mean motorized extraction or manual extraction. In the US and some other nations, cutting into tissue even if it means scoring with fue means surgery. Tattoos are only in the top layers of the skin. With fue, you do score through nerves and require much more donor area after care. I am glad you got great surgery and results, but it doesnt seem to be the case for everyone. Most results posted online done by doctors and personalized for one patient at a time, seem to have been successful. Manual fue seems to be yielding better results in terms of density vs coverage. Quick and easy motorized extractions seem to be yielding a lot less.

[KO]

God....I would not trust techs to use the pens. But then again, we're having techs open channels for graft insertions. YOLO I guess.

[mongoal]

God....I would not trust techs to use the pens. But then again, we're having techs open channels for graft insertions. YOLO I guess.

 

Some people don't like tattoos as well. Some people fly in airplanes too, flying through the air at 50,000ft with a pilot, trusting a pilot with your life, children and your wife?

 

I don't remember the physicians name, have to look it up. He was great we talked for 4 hours and I was worried there wouldn't be enough time, he laughed and said youll see how fast it was. 2 techs using a hand tool and they spun it, no drill. A drill?

 

The physician poked my head, sounded freaky like the end scene in the movie Jaws, when the shark was being poked in the face with that spear. Then the physician and a tech put the grafts back in, 2 techs handed them pens with a graft in each of them, took like an hour maybe two, I was watching the movie Troy and didn't get through the whole movie until it was done. He was awesome and so were the 4-5 techs, had a taco and left. When driving across the border the border patrol asked why I was in mexico, I took off my hat and he waved us through.

 

Attached are some pictures, the first ones are pre FUE, after etc.

 

Two last pictures are last month, the one looks really thinning. It only looks like that in some light and thin in office lights. It defiantly looks thinner than a couple years ago, I must have lost all my original hair in that area. I do remember the physician saying I could easily do another 3000 as my donor area was good.

 

Overall the physicians said he likes to get the grafts out and in fast and try and get them pointed in the right direction and keep everything clean and the pen did it fast, maybe that why i believe i had good results for a $5k FUE. Others may disagree. Not sure id travel to Turkey on a airplane for 13 hours risking my life or even possible jihadi cutting my head off. Basically i took the Mexican drug cartel violence risk instead.

[1966kph]

Like Bob Dylan said the time's they are a changing.

Happy new year

[mongoal]

What doctor did your fue? Do you have any before and after results? When you say pen, do you mean motorized extraction or manual extraction. In the US and some other nations, cutting into tissue even if it means scoring with fue means surgery. Tattoos are only in the top layers of the skin. With fue, you do score through nerves and require much more donor area after care. I am glad you got great surgery and results, but it doesnt seem to be the case for everyone. Most results posted online done by doctors and personalized for one patient at a time, seem to have been successful. Manual fue seems to be yielding better results in terms of density vs coverage. Quick and easy motorized extractions seem to be yielding a lot less.

 

Im not sure how great my results are, but id consider them very decent. Basically i was nearly bald on the top of my head, im no where near bald 4-5 years later and probably wont ever look as bald as i did prior to FUE.

 

Judging from my pictures pre-FUE and now after 2000 grafts, if i were to have a "Turkish" or "Mexican" 3000 graft transplant/paint job id probably over double the thickness. Could probably even bring the left side hairline down a half inch to match the right side. That's why im back checking out the forum. If i could get 2500 grafts in the USA for $5k with similar results i would. But American physicians want big bucks still it seems.

 

Its the same paintjob in other countries as far as i can tell. Does an artist in the USA painting a picture draw any better than a Mexican, or a Turkish man/woman? maybe. I believe all dodge trucks are made in mexico, does that mean you wouldn't drive a dodge or its not built as well as a Chevy.

 

Id think an experienced FUE Tech that has worked on 3000 patients and works 10 hours a day at doing it, is probably better suited to do a better job than a physician who personally performed 300 FUE.

 

Has anyone had a bad FUE from Turkey? or the so called FUE mills? A bad job doesn't mean a patient really needed 5000 grafts but only paid for 2000 and it looks like crap. Perhaps that's what some complain about?