1s,2s,3/4s exploitation, determination of graft number etc???

[j1j9j85]

my question is this?

 

Patient 1,goes for a hair transplant and ends up with!

 

1961 x 1's, 1451 x 2's and 140 x 3 and 4's.

 

This equates to a total of,

 

only 5353 hairs but 3500 grafts! Since the price is per graft this would cost Patient 1 a large amount.

 

Patient 2 comes along and has the following??!!

 

275 x single hair grafts, 325 x double hair grafts, 1875 x three and four hair grafts.

 

Thats is a total of 6500 hairs and only 2475 grafts!!!!!!

 

 

So i draw the conclusion that when you do the math patient 1 is paying for 1000 more grafts!!!!!!!!!!! but recieving over a 1000 less hairs than patient 2 who is paying less as he received less grafts but received over 1000 more hairs???

 

 

 

so again to evaluate...

 

*should dr's charge per hair! to make this pricing fair for all patiants?

*is this process open to exploitation ie, dr's remove alot of 2 or 3 o 4 grafts but split them in to 1's so they can charge more as the total graft number is increased?????

 

because a patient with 3500 grafts can receive less hairs than a patient paying for 2000 grafts as it stands???

 

*also the determination of how many 1s you have is this down to hair charachteristics ie one individual may jus have more 1s than another for example?????

*im just concerned as its seems easy for drs to slpit grafts to increase the graft total and indeed the fee... but the patiant will be left with a result equivilant to some one who payed 1000s of dollars less for only 2000gr lets say

 

any thoughts on this guys has any one thought about this before?

cheers for reading:confused:

Edited September 30, 2010 by j1j9j85

[joker28]

thats why it should be based on per session and strip size , so whatever grafts come out from particular strip 1 x20 or 1.5 x 22 will go in for that session and price of sessions will depend on strip sizes i guess......

[j1j9j85]

my main concern is say a man goes in for a 3500 graft surgery, when the counting up is done of the extracted grafts he has only 2500 would it not be very easy for the surgeon to split alot of the 3's or 4's and even a few 2's thus making up the difference and then charging the patient for a 3500 graft surgery? when in reality they will only be receiving the same number of hairs as a 2000 grft sugery! but will end up paying for a 3 or 4000 but the yeild will be only the same as 2000?

 

i hope this makes sense??

 

also when i dr removes the strip and disects it to extract the grafts!!! how is the 1s or 2s or 3s or 4 grafts determinded do they come out of the strip this way? or can the dr simply put 2x 1 hairs together to make a 2 hair graft? and vice versus could he or she split a 2 hair to make a 1 hair graft?

 

im just saying i think the process is open to exploitation i just dont think its fair that a man with 2000 grafts coul dend up with more hair than a 3000 and pay less than the poor individual who had to cough up for the 3000 total?

 

if indeed this does go on?

[RCWest]

If a doctor needed to split larger grafts for say, the hairline, then I think that's OK. But to purposely split natural follicular units to get more grafts is a dirty deal. I understand exactly what you are saying, and after looking at some before and after photos you can tell that was done.

[Johnny1386]

a side question then , the amount of grafts determines the size of the strip taken? , also would the number of hairs or grafts vary on how much hair an indvidual has back there , I am sure some guys may have more dense hair while others less dense , so some guys may in effect get more hairs based on the strip size and some less ?

[RCWest]

a side question then , the amount of grafts determines the size of the strip taken? , also would the number of hairs or grafts vary on how much hair an indvidual has back there , I am sure some guys may have more dense hair while others less dense , so some guys may in effect get more hairs based on the strip size and some less ?

 

You are correct.

[EpilepticSceptic]

I don't think clinics should give a discount if a patient averages less hair per grafts than another; concerning the workload, a graft is a graft whether it has 3 hairs or 1 hair.

 

I do however wish there was a scientific way to measure this pre-surgery. As it stands now you have to wait until the strip is sliced out of your head and dissected before you know what your numbers are.

 

As far as knowing if a clinic is cheating you or not, it seems the only way you could know for sure is to have another surgery at another clinic and see what the numbers average. If they are radically different then it stands to reason that one of them is cheating you.

 

Yeah, it's a drag when a guy who gets the same # of grafts as you ends up with 2000 more actual hairs, both from a cost factor and also the end result itself !!

[j1j9j85]

exactly????

 

its a very........... grey area!!! for example this is very unlikely but as the system stands now this is possible......

 

some one could have

 

2000 x 2 hair grafts and have 4000 hairs

 

and some one else could have

 

2000 x 1 hair grafts and get 2000 hairs half as much and still pay the same amount

 

also the payment system as it is allows for deliberate exploitation as dr's may actually split 2 hair grafts thus increase the 1 hair grafts and price for there own benefit!!!!

 

*basically the system of payment ie per graft is flawed and thus allows for potential exploitation. i feel a change in how the price is determined would cut the debate and also the loop hole in which the price can be altered for the dr's benefit if they so choose by splitting grafts etc etc. and this would also make it fair for the patients because as it stands it simply is not fair and its clear to see!!!! obviously the individuals characteristics are also a factor but never the less a hair is a hair and its simply unethical and unfair that men and women who pay for a service could potentialy be overcharged and in comparison have less hair transplanted than some one who payed thousands of dollars less and the whole idea of paying these astronomical fees is for as much hair as you can obtain. so its simply unjust how any one patient may pay more for less in a sense!!!!!!!!!!!

 

this issue needs to be addressed

[Johnny1386]

in the Dr's defence , if the patient gets 2000 single hairs / grafts in stead of 3-4 hair grafts , perhaps less hair but a better natural looking result ?

[RCWest]

As long as hairs are transplanted in their follicular units, it will look natural whether it's a 1 hair graft or 4 hair graft. You definitely get more density using the 3-4 hair ones.

[Surfarosa]

in the Dr's defence , if the patient gets 2000 single hairs / grafts in stead of 3-4 hair grafts , perhaps less hair but a better natural looking result ?

 

Johnny - If the doctor decides to use singles (in the hairline for example) he will simply have the techs (where possible) dissect the multiples to make them into singles. On average a graft contains 2.3 hairs.......it would not occur that donor strip would produce 2000 singles naturally. More likely a combination or 1, 2s, 3s and 4s.

[j1j9j85]

if grafts are easily split then this doubles the cost!!! not to mention the poor guys who will have thinner hair but have to pay more than a guy who had the same number but the untis where not split....

dnt get me wrong splitting grafts to insert in the hair line is a must but splitting to increase graft numbers for financial gain is wrong......

i feel this process as it stands is very much open to be exploited in the pricing of HT's

[EpilepticSceptic]

When I had my surgery in May 2010 at H & W I noticed when I filled out the forms it said "Hasson & Wong AESTHETIC Surgery". After seeing this it made me realize what we are really paying for when we choose one of the best.

 

The top HT docs are artists, and so it is NOT just the hair count that determines the result but also (and perhaps more importantly) the doc's skill and talent at the way he lays everything out.

 

All I can say is that I am happy so far, and if (when) my results meet my expectations when I look in the mirror then I will be ECSTATIC to forget about everything I have learned concerning HTs and just become a normal everyday joe again going about my life. It wouldn't matter to me if I paid $100,000 because if I look great and am happy then that is worth $10,000,000 to me! I don't expect the hot south american babes on the beaches to be taking out their magnifying glasses and making a hair count before they decide if they want to fool around with me or not !!! If I look good and it gets me past phase #1 with the chicks then I GOT WHAT I PAYED FOR ! From phase 2 (personality) onward I will hit the frickin ball out of the stadium 100% of the time -- guarunteed.

 

I have said it before and I'll say it again: HT internet forums are a necessary part of doing diligent research so as to not get butchered, but at a certain point they become like a bad (VERY bad) Kafka novel that none of us should have to endure for very long !!!

 

Indeed, if you are not employed in the HT industry then obsessing over all of these details once you have taken the plunge is just a complete waste of precious time. You will either look good or look like shit -- and if you look good then just move on and forget that you ever even had a hairloss problem.

Edited October 3, 2010 by EpilepticSceptic

[Surfarosa]

if grafts are easily split then this doubles the cost!!! not to mention the poor guys who will have thinner hair but have to pay more than a guy who had the same number but the untis where not split....

dnt get me wrong splitting grafts to insert in the hair line is a must but splitting to increase graft numbers for financial gain is wrong......

i feel this process as it stands is very much open to be exploited in the pricing of HT's

 

I tried to promote the idea of the HTN getting a standardized report going - starting with Coalition doctors. See this thread .....

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/157651-scientifically-objectifying-hair-transplant-surgery.html

[Surfarosa]

EpilepticSceptic - you still here ?

[Surfarosa]

The ethical doctors are also smart enough to know that cheating on graphs is a short term money maker. They are all in this for the long term and know the power of the internet when it comes to damaging their reputations. If you really trust your doc at some point you have to become a passenger or you will drive yourself nuts.

[j1j9j85]

great replys guys cheers....

[j1j9j85]

i get your point in regards to if it looks good then the details dont matter and no matter what the price if it works its irrelevent how much you paid!!!!!

 

that is a fair statement!!!! how ever cost is not the issue as if a patient gets what they desired then all is well no matter how much extra they paid!!!

 

i just think the fees could use a little work inregards to standardising as its not equal for all!!!!!!!!!!!

 

i wouldnt mind paying 100,000 if i had it,and got the results i wanted but you have to admit you be pissed if some else got the same result for 50,000 wouldnt you..... i would!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

its that simple?

[EpilepticSceptic]

I'm far from rich, but I just don't think about $ when it comes to art. I'm a piano player so I can truly appreciate the practice and skill it takes for the doc and staff to pull off a world class HT.

 

There's a dude on here who posted a question: "Hasson or Madhu, debt or cash ?" I think that just about says it all. IMO you go to who you feel is the very best and you pay whatever that person asks. And if you can't afford it you WAIT until you have saved enough.

 

This is your head for christ's sake, and most peeps only get one, maybe two shots at doing this thing right. If you could go back in time and undo what Rogers did to you on your first HT how much $ would that be worth to you ? $100,000 ? $1,000,000 ? Can you even put a price on it ?

[j1j9j85]

Thanks for the last comment thats a very good way to look at it i also agree 110%..........

 

but i still feel easy manipulation of grafts and splitting of multilpe hair grafts,is easy to do for both the very best and the very worst of drs!!!

 

i just feel a more ethical and fair way of paying would help level the playing field from patient to patient and clinic to clinic!!!

[Al - Moderator]

obsessing over all of these details once you have taken the plunge is just a complete waste of precious time. You will either look good or look like shit -- and if you look good then just move on and forget that you ever even had a hairloss problem.

 

That's great if it turns out looking good. I would have forgotten about it and moved on too, but what do you do if it looks like shit? That's worse than not ever doing it at all.

[RCWest]

I would expect grafts being split for the hairline, but nowhere else. Splitting is cheating! A lot of doctors on here in the "results posted by clinics" forum will list the breakdown (number of grafts, how many hairs per graft, total hairs). But even then you don't know if a fu taken from the strip was divided.