Propecia/Fin - 3 months in and side-effects

[illuminated]

Hi All,

 

I had a HT 4 months ago with H&W (Blog to come in due-course) and I commenced the following meds/vitamins:

 

1. Finasteride (5mg split into 1/5th as best as possible, 1/5th per day) 1 month post-op; therefore, have been taking it for 3 months to-date.

 

2. MSM 3000mg daily since the op - 4 months to-date.

 

3. Vitamin B-complex (from Healthspan in the UK) for the past month - 1 month to-date.

 

Initially I noticed semen to be more watery and much less in quantity. This was followed by a slight loss of libido of which I took no notice. However, progressively, libido has reduced and erection strength also reduced.

 

I have written to Doug @ H&W to ask for advice but in the meantime I thought I'd post here to ask for advice.

 

Also, at one-month post-op again, I also commenced Minoxidil 5% applied once per day at night. I was using this prior to the HT but stopped abour 3 months prior to the op itself.

 

My immediate thoughts are to discontinue the Finasteride 1/5th I have been taking daily, keep applying with the Minoxidil 5%, continue taking the MSM and vitamin B-complex and see how it goes for the next 2 weeks

 

Suggestions and thoughts welcome.

[Surfarosa]

Huge suggestion - do not stop taking the Finasteride. A HT is quite an emotional trip and at 3 months you are in one of the worst stages. Mate - your self-esteem may well just be in the toilet right now. Your big head might be interferring with your little one After a year I'd see how you feel - let you body and mind adjust. There is a strange and unexplainable phenomenon that once you start rocking a new hairline your old fella starts to get his groove mysteriously back on.

 

I'm no doctor or psychologist but I'd wager that you are not one of the tiny minority that suffers sexual side effects. Read some EpilepticSceptic stuff (or better still PM him) - he will tell you that his only regret in life was stopping Finasteride - he is now back on it and can't wait to get his new H&W hair grown out.

 

I'm on Avodart after 10 years on Fin. Avodart is the monster when it comes to sexual side effects and it has done nothing but good for me.

 

Keep the faith !

[illuminated]

To be honest, my hair wasn't at a NW6 or anything, more like a NW1/2/3 at most before the HT. Post HT it's looking great so far so my confidence and state of mind has really nothing to do with it in this case.

[Surfarosa]

Then your doc is the best bet for sure. Maybe you are in that small %age. Good luck man !

[EpilepticSceptic]

illuminated,

 

Well, since I was mentioned here I thought it only appropriate to reply.

 

Surf mentioned that my biggest regret was stopping finasteride, but I actually never completely quit it; back in the day it was hard to get and super expensive, so I was nonchalant and allowed myself to be without it for several months out of every year. I've been taking it for almost 11 years now and am 41. My biggest regret is actually that I did not get on it sooner because it has worked so well for me that I likely would never have needed a HT; rest assured if I had known about it in my early 20s I would have sold my soul to the devil to get it at any price !!!

 

My advice to you is to keep taking it for at least 1 year. At the end of 1 year if you believe you have legitimate erectile dysfunction THEN, AND ONLY THEN, should you quit !! I really cannot stress this enough -- do not be nonchalant and just think everything will be OK because you've had your HT. This IMO would be a BIG mistake!

 

Yes, most all of us who benefit from the drug have watery semen -- you will just have to accept that and live with it if you want to keep your hair as you really have no other choice at this point in time. Suprisingly the only time I experienced difficulty getting erections is when I lowered the dose, and once I got back on 1.25 mg daily I no longer had any issues. You may have to go thru a full 1 year of taking the 1.25 mg dose every day before your body completely adjusts and your erections are stiff as steel again. I remember a turning point where a switch flipped in my brain and I suddenly had full control over that organ again, but still the watery semen and reduced volume.

 

Yes, ejaculations may never be as intense as they once were in the pleasure domain after being on fin for the long haul. You have to make a choice whether or not the extremes of sexual pleasure or your hair is more important to you. In your case since you've already had a major HT you don't really have much of a choice IMO, and I think for you to quit fin would be a MAJOR mistake that would become painfully obvious 1-5 years from now. I still enjoy sex very much, but I would say the pleasure level is about 80% of what it used to be. You have to decide if that extra 20% is worth more to you than your hair; for me the choice was pretty easy.

 

I saw your blog and you were not a NW1 or 2 pre-HT. You actually had the outline of a NW4+ or even a NW 5/6 developing in a diffuse pattern. You must understand that MPB is not going to give up the fight to finish you off and the only chance you really have is to stay on the finasteride. Otherwise you'll be right back in the chair for another HT not too long from now.

 

You were smart enough to choose the best HT doc in the world so please take his advice and stay on the finasteride and take it seriously. I know Dr. H is a huge advocate of fin and rightly so!

Edited September 19, 2010 by EpilepticSceptic

[illuminated]

This is a tough call.

 

Prior to the HT I had read about ED probs but then I had also read that this was for a small minority of people. Dr H and the gang also assured me to try it and so I have, with open arms and I really want it to work.

 

To be extra safe, I have been cutting the pill into 1/5th as best as possible. Obviously, some days the dosage would be higher and some days lower (because the pill is not scored and cutting into fifths isn't easy). I don't know if I can decrease the dosage any further somehow with it being still effective?

 

Truth be told, I can probably live with the effect on semen but being only 30 and not even married yet, the effect on my libido and erection strength is quite scary at the moment. I am happy to continue trying Fin but I do not want it to be that after 1 year my body has become so used to it that even if I get off it then, the effects are much longer lasting.

Edited September 19, 2010 by illuminated

[Surfarosa]

Great advice EpilepticSceptic as usual. Thorough & candid - thanks for helping brother Illuminated out with your sage self !!

[Garageland]

Hi Illuminated, I hope you are doing well my friend Epiletic has given a very honest reply but everyone has different reactions, personally I would agree with the change in semen quality but I have had no other problems, you are well advised to try to ride out the current problems that you have and keep on it, if you are still having problems you could lower the dosage and see if that helps this will still give you some of the benefit.

[illuminated]

Hi

 

Considering I have been taking 1/5th of a pill each day, what suggestions do you have a for a lower dosage?

 

Thanks.

[Garageland]

1/5 of the proscar tablet is 1mg so as a last resort you could try 1/5 tab every other day and see how you get on.

[DiggityDocMP]

Just my experience but I have been on Propecia for over three years (yeah I still buy it at 3 dollars a pill, i am hoping to talk my doctor into something generic this week to make it cheaper.. I've probably spent way more than I needed to supporting the major drug company.)

 

Anyhow, I have never noticed any loss in libido.. I really think it's in some people's head... Just my opinion though... stick with it! I wake with a boner EVERY day and I think the older I get the more I am trying to knock down the ladies..

[Akash]

Anyhow, I have never noticed any loss in libido.. I really think it's in some people's head... Just my opinion though... stick with it! I wake with a boner EVERY day and I think the older I get the more I am trying to knock down the ladies..

 

 

:D

He He I just thought of "knocking down the ladies with a boner" and I cant stop grinning at that thought.. LOL!!

Edited September 28, 2010 by Akash

[brentipold]

Honestly I wouldn't listen to any of these fools... I'm actually a Propecia sufferer, and have quit for 1 year and 5 months and sides still remain... My best advice to you would be to quit taking the drug till your sides disappear (98% sure they will). Riding it out for a year is literally the dumbest thing you can possibly do.. That's what got me in trouble. As far as the first poster saying its in your head, he honestly must have brain damage... Here's what you should do after you quit and return to normal.. Go to Walgreen's and get a pill cutter (should be like 3$).. Get the 1/5 of the pill u are taking and cut it into 4ths if you can.. ive never seen fin, only Propecia so IDK if you can cut them into 4ths. IF you can cut them into 4th's, take 1/4 pill(.25 mg) everyday (When I was doing that I had no side effects).. I believe there is a chart on here of a study that says fin can block about 65% of dht with .25mg... Its better then nothing and should help you in some way. Make sure you take the .25mg and stick with it.. Dont be taking .25 one day then the next take .50 then .25 the next day.. .50mg was to much for me and it gave me sides as well. If the .25mg gives you side effects then you should probably quit the drug all together.. These ppl saying that the sides clear up after a year are few and far between and are the extreme extreme minority or they are just full of crap..

 

Look, i'm not trying to scare you by saying you shouldn't take the drug.. Because I think its a good drug for a lot of people, and it improved my hair drastically. I'm simply trying to help you out by telling you the best way to probably take the medication and may help your hair out and the ed bullshit.

 

Also no disrespect to any of the people who I said don't know what they are talking about... I'm sorry, but you clearly do not know what you're talking about. I've been through a whole lot with this drug and I have a pretty good understand about what it can do.

[illuminated]

Hi brentipold,

 

Thanks for your frank post.. sorry I did not reply sooner, for some reason I was not alerted abou the message.

 

I took 1/5th Proscar daily for 3 months but noticed quite a few negative effects including some ED such as: much lower libido, loss of erection strength, no 'morning wood', greatly decreased ejaculate volume.

 

Coming off 1/5th Proscarfor just over a month has so far reduced the negative effects but not eliminated them so far .

 

Online reading on the subject isn't positive for those who are suseptible to the side effects of this drug, however, I think it's only fair I take 3 months 'off' the drug as I had 3 'on' and then take it from there. I think cutting a 1mg pill into 1/4s would be a good idea after that?

[j1j9j85]

dont suffer and wait it out!!! get bloods done as inbalances of hormones can be corrected!!!

 

you need to visit and endo and get

 

fsh

gnrh

lh

all test

all oetsrogen

shbg

etc etc

 

many sufferers choose to suffer in stead of being pro active and seeking the corect meand sof treatments many endos do not know or understand finest and how it works!!!!! i have helped 3 men now with the help of a good friend with people like you! you need a good endo the correct questions and knowledge that we have to get the hormonal axis and homeostasis back in line!!!!

 

i cant understand the logic behind just waiting for the body to recover this can take months or years or not at all!!!!!! and many men after propecia like on propecia help are quite intent to do this... ive actually been on there and tried to help them but many wont help them selves!!!

 

you can take a horse to water but you can make him drink!!!! thats exactly how i felt with them so i gave up!!!

 

how ever on my other forum fitnness one many men come on asking fo rhelp after finest and a few have been sorted out!!!

 

men who are sensitve to finest can get the hormonal balances so out line the body simply cant correct it and.... a jumps start is often required like in a acar engine..... and then the body takes over!!!!

 

get the bloods done give me the results i will arm you with the correct questions go back to your endo and quizz him! then hiopefully he will try the meds i advise and after a few months have bloods done again and see if it has worked simple!!!!

 

at the end of the day you have nothing to lose!!! and it works its basically a post cycle therapy for restoring your own natural hormone levels using meds used by bodybuilders after using hormones that change the natural levels in order to restore things!!

 

it works tried and tested and any decent endo should see this:D

[illuminated]

Do you have a full list of the things to test for?

 

Can you guide me how to do this in the UK - i.e. can it be done through the family doctor or specialist. If so, recommendations?

[j1j9j85]

Basically get a full blood test done for as many hormones as you can!

 

oestrogen

testosterone

SHBG

FSH

GNRH

progesterone

DHT

 

yes a family doctor should reffer you to a specialist and from there they can deal with things as you will need meds to correct any inbalances and for this you will need to be supervision by a profesional!

 

but you need to ask the correct questions as here in the uk to be honest they are terrible and the endos will just bull shit you to go away!!!

 

or you could pay yourself google medichecks and a list of centers will come up that will run the tests for you!!!!!!

 

i medicate my self by getting the meds from a long term source of which i used when i was bodybuilding but only when i need to ie when the blood tests show unbalance's kinda wot a guy on test replacement therapy does only because i have a lot of personal friends who are experts in this area due to competing im able to do it my self!!!!

 

but i dont do that you need to fined a dr or endo who knows what they are doing!!!!!! as you will need to get the meds and be supervised and have a blood tests done its cheaper for you if you get under the care of some one as its all free!!!

 

how ever the drs are crap and they will tell u any bull if you just go in and say finest has altered my HPTA axis.....

 

so my advice pay for the blood tests private then go armed with the results and questions! this way they cant ignore you also when you get to the endo....... talk about the protocols i have mentioned and the drugs i have mentioned and insist you try it....

 

because it really is quite easy to get things sorted if you know how and UK drs have not caught on yet im afraid in the states there is more light on the subject and more success with the post cycle therapys for post steroid use and it is this same protocol which restores things after finest use....

 

it works and its just a shame that the drs either are not aware of any finest problems or dont understant because i find it amasing that drs hand this stuff out...... when i know exactly how much it can impact and ruin the HPTA hormonal systems.......... men need to be supervised on this shit as it will and completely ruin some mens internal hormonal ratios which can be debilitating and seriouse!!!!!!!

 

its shocking if you ask me i have seen men in worst shape after long term finest use than men who have done a steroid cycle for 8 weeks.......... and drs dish this stuff out with out a second thought its a major scam!

 

finest is good for hairloss but it has to be managed correctly and the drs fail to do this something needs to be done if im honest

Edited November 2, 2010 by j1j9j85

[brentipold]

Okay, why is this iJ guy panicking over here? Illuminated, are you recovered from these side effects? Let me get this straight, you took 1/5th of Proscar and still had side effects? If that's the case you probably can not take the drug. Your body just cant handle it.

 

Once you quit taking the drug, did the side effects go away? If so, I dont know what the big deal is... If however you are still suffering from these side effects, after 3 months you should probably go to your doctor. You need to research and find a very good anti aging doctor. or Dr. shippen, Dr. mariano, or Crisler. Those are the big 3 in my eyes. Blood tests, yes you'll need them.. There are so many tests you'll need to get. If you want to know them all and more information send me a msg on here and ask me some questions.. I know quite a lot about this subject....

[brentipold]

Now that I see you are from the UK as well, iJ makes a good point. UK doctors are awful when trying to deal with these problems. However, ij is wrong when he says that you just need to restart ur HPTA system. For most people it is not that easy. There are people who have been treated with Propecia side effects who have testosterone levels in the 4000's! and still cant function properly. It has more to do with then dealing with Testosterone. Thyroid hormones are the most important thing to check, because a strong number of us on the propeciahelp.com believe it is a thyroid adrenal issue... or a pituitary gland issue..

 

Look, from what im reading correctly, it's only been a month and you havnt returned to normal? however, you have made some improvements. I think you should take my advice and your own advice and wait 3 months to see if u go back to normal. Some people take longer to get over the side effects then others. If you still havent recovered in the 3 months time, then you should start to get proactive. I wish I would have done something at the 3 month mark instead of the 1 year mark. I would already be back to normal.

[brentipold]

Blood tests needed:

 

Total Testosterone

Free Testosterone

Bioavailable Testosterone

Androstenedione

Androstenediol

DHT (not accurate compared to Adiol-G)

3alpha-diol G (Androstanediol glucuronide-- "Adiol-G" for short): metabolite of DHT, measures 5AR-II activity

Androsterone glucuronide (another metabolite of DHT that measures 5AR activity)

Estradiol (E2)

Estrone (E1)

Total Estrogens

LH

FSH

DHEA-s

Cortisol

Cortisone

Corticosterone

Deoxycorticosterone

Aldosterone

SHBG

Prolactin

Progesterone

Pregnenolone

17-OH Progesterone

17-OH Pregnenolone

Albumin

ACTH

PSA

TSH

Free T3

Free T4

IGF-1

IGF-BP3

CBC or FBC (Complete Blood Count/Full Blood Count)

LFT (Liver Function Tests - AST, ALT, GGT, Bilirubin, etc.)

Androgen/Estrogen ratio

Testosterone/DHT ratio

Reverse T3 - very important thyroid hormone

[illuminated]

Hi,

 

I have stopped the 1/5th Finasteride for about 6 weeks. Some of the ED has worn off but some is still there such as decreased sexual desire, quite a bit of a loss of 'morning wood', difficulty in getting and sustaining an erection without 'help' and decreased volume of ejaculate.

 

I have also experienced a massive shed - refer to my other post:

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/158331-illuminated-5-month-nearly-6-update-something-wrong-here-new-post.html

 

I agree that may be I am susceptible to the side to the side effects more than others.

 

In regards to getting the bloods done.. is that available via the NHS? Privately, it seems that it is charged PER TEST, meaning that it can cost hundreds of pounds!

[j1j9j85]

yes i have mine private and it cost alot look into medichecks google it...

 

or you could go into your gp and tell porkys i have also done this! tell them you are suffering from symptoms of high oestrogen due to finest use and low test...

 

ed,

libido,

gyno,

belly fat deposits

really play on the tingle in the nipples and puffy nipples and demand bloods done befor you take any more meds as you say you are not taking anything untill bloods are done after the mess finest has got you in and you want to see the problems with your hormones (which they cant say other wise if you state the sides above)

 

good luck

[brentipold]

Well if you were prescribed fin by a doctor then i'll assume that you have insurance.. You're going to have to find a doctor that will agree to test things.. I recommend going to propeciahelp.com and finding guys from the UK who have found good docs in the UK that will run the tests... Trying to pay for the tests will cost u 10,000$ So I HOPE you have insurance... Otherwise, I really feel bad for ya..

 

But give it some more time.. Its only been 6 weeks....By the 3rd month you'll find out whether or not youre in some trouble.. for right now.. My advice to you would be to excercise 3-4 times a week, and sleep AT LEAST 7 hours a night.. Sleep is the most important thing. Its when your body rebuilds... SO please try to make sure your going enough sleep. No late nights or anything.. When I was still taking propecia, I always felt that when I got a good night of sleep the side effects were much less... Youre body is used to a certain pattern so it would be good to get in that good sleep habit for a month or so so hopefully things will improve for ya.. Feel free to send me a msg or anything if you have any other questions. I have an Iphone so Ill know when you send the msg instantly thru email notfication..

 

 

Brent

[j1j9j85]

brentipold, im sorry but ive failed to see how im panicking? i have given him the soundest advice in regards to his situation as it stands! and the correct protocol to follow.........

 

when some one has intitialy come off propecia addressing the hpta is the best place to start how you can say it isnt is ludacris! its the fastest and most direct way to kick start a recovery!

 

i agree it isnt just as easy as sorting the hpta but its the most vital area to address first and many short term and some long term users recover when the hpta is back in good shape id go as far as saying the majority.

 

if sides persit yes other options such as thyroid etc etc have to be pursued but you dont just jump straight into that before sorting the other issues, that is like going from start to step 10!!!!!

 

dr shippen is the greatest by the way!!!!!!!!!!!!! ive read and studied alot of the good drs work in reference to anrodpause and hpta recovery fantastic stuff

 

i agree with everything you have said brentipold how ever just waiting it out to see if you are in trouble is the wrong attitude to take it just prolongs the suffering in some respects if he has high oestrogen and low test he will feel not feel very pleasent as i well know my self and this can be easily rectified......

 

and the sooner the hpta is corrected and homeostasis solidified the better as the body will start to recover even faster in many areas not just endocrine system wise mentaly physicaly sexualy and immune system FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

your massive list of blood results is not needed at this point and would cost an arm an a leg in the uk i advise he sticks to the main tests before looking into all the others such as thyroid at this stage!!! as you are just going to worry the author with out due cause!!!

 

only approach the other avenue's if recovery has been unsuccesful once the hpta has been restored but i have a hunch once the hpta is in order so too will he be!!!!!

 

igf1 etc etc is irrelvent at this stage lol brilliant stuff for bodybuilding igf1 i love the stuff!!!!

 

you are aware how the hpta directly affects all hormone systems in the body arent you not just test / oestrogen/dht/progesterone but also interacts with hgh, the thyroid and so on and so on

 

 

another fact for you is that when dht is removed from the receptors via a dht inhibitor its replaced with progesterone interesting how it all works isnt i find it amasing!!!!!!!!

 

any way good luck to the author

 

but please beleive me when i say the best place to start is the HPTA and test to oestrogen ratios.... ive personaly helped 2 men now who recoverd fully after 1 to 2 years on finest simply by correcting homeostasis in the endocrine system and restoring a correct

 

Hypothalamus to Pituitary to the Thyroid Axis levels of hormones (HPTA)

 

im not saying there arent other factors at work may be neurological but these are rare and secondary to the above!!!!!

 

ciao:D

Edited November 5, 2010 by j1j9j85

[brentipold]

You're making it as simple as just lowering estrogen.. It's really not that simple.. Ppl who take armitrex, which nearly suppresses estrogen if u take enough of it still have no improvement.. Its more of a thyroid/adrenal issue... U can have levels of 4000 in T and still have no sexual function without it getting released... With a myself included my T is good and E is ok and Im still having side effects, because my T is getting bottle necked somewhere..... I honestly don't believe that you magically cured two people from this stuff. You havent dealt with these problems yourself, so I really dont know where your coming from on this whole subject..

 

1 month is not any reason to panic.. its 1 month.. jeez.. You dont need just basic tests to figure this out.. its a complex issue.. Otherwise there wouldnt be anyone out there with these problems...