propecia

[giants]

Iv been on rogaine for over a year and nizoral 1% for aobut a month. This week i will add propecia to my regimine. I really havent had any results on the two drugs. Could rogaine become more effective by adding propecia. I know the two together are the best combination but can propecia help stimulate rogaine.

[giants]

Iv been on rogaine for over a year and nizoral 1% for aobut a month. This week i will add propecia to my regimine. I really havent had any results on the two drugs. Could rogaine become more effective by adding propecia. I know the two together are the best combination but can propecia help stimulate rogaine.

[notgoing2gobald]

man I want to try propecia, but Im worried I wont be able to get it up merely as a psychosomatic response from being worried about it. let me know how it goes.

[giants]

dude,

I feel the whole propecia side-effects craze is getting a little out of control. Does it have possilbe side-effects yes but so do all drugs. If someone expirences the sides theres no reason why the can just stop taking the drug. If it helps your hair and makes you feel more confident youll look back and be glad you chose to get on the pro.

[notgoing2gobald]

your probably right. Ive taken other medications, I just think I have a mental block with propecia: the big head might tell the little head something is wrong. Maybe I should get over that and give it a try.

[MrJobi]

Hi all

 

Of course using the drugs together will have a combined effect and most likely will give you a BOOST all together. I think Propecia overall delivers better results.

As far as the side effects the studies say 5% or less suffer from side effects.. Personally, I have had none as well as many others on here. But there are some quite vocal people on here who claim a host of side effects ( I think it is a bit exaggerated though)..

 

BUT do the research, consult a doctor and make a choice.

[justgrow]

I have had no side effects. I have had an increased libido and I have been on it for 5 1/2 months. I have been experiencing shedding or thinning but many on here say that it is the medication working and it should thicken back up

eventually.

[Ringo]

Gents,

 

I have been on Propecia or it's generic equivalent Finpecia for about 10 months. My hair does not shed anymore, and I have had no sexual side effects. A lot of your experience is in how you think about it. The human mind can psyche itself into or out of almost anything!

[Matt Skiba]

As a matter of fact my reports of side effects were not exaggerated in the least bit, and there are many who have had it even worse than me with things like gynocomastia also known as man titties. I also have blood tests to prove my post-finasteride side effects, which includes lowered testosterone levels, higher estrogen levels, and oddly enough elevated DHT levels possibly due to a rebound once stopping the drug. So basically even if you just try it for a while and then come to the conclusion that it isn't right for you it has the potential for lasting side effects and increased hair loss. Basically it has the potential of putting you in a state similar to what happens to some men who abuse anabolic steroids. Also did I mention that DHT is important for mental sharpness and vigor? It is something that actually helps you think like a man.

 

From what I can tell the vast majority of this forum is uneducated in the inner workings and specifics of the endocrine system, and I don't blame them, it's not a topic I'd normally be interested in, but after going through a biochemical nightmare I've had to do hours of research on the subject. The bottom line is you are in fact messing with stuff that shouldn't be messed with.

 

My suggestions for alternatives if you are willing to take them is to use Dr. Lee's Xandrox minoxidil formulation which contains azelaic acid which is a potent topical anti-androgen. This has been clinically proven and there is an article on Pubmed on it, and pubmed is a respected and legitimate medical journal.

 

You could combine xandrox with saw palmetto, pygeum, and stinging nettles, and you can also upgrade from nizoral 1% to Dr. Lee's ketaconazole shampoo. I think this would definitely be a healthy approach.

 

You should also read the following forum post:

 

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/75365-question-about-trt.html

 

there's quite a few other posts on finasteride, and anabolic minds is a good forum for finding some knowledgable people on how the endocrine system works.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I want to add that although Azelaic acid, Saw Palmetto, Pygeum, and nettles have been said to combat hair loss in theory, there have been no formal clinical studies on them to prove their efficacy as a hair loss treatment.

 

Matt,

 

I find your scare tactics regarding finasteride a bit tiresome. Do you know that many of the so called herbal remedies that you discuss/promote are said to work just like Propecia by inhibiting DHT (by blocking Type 2 5-alpha-reductase enzymes)? On one hand, you talk about how important DHT is and how dangerous it is to inhibit it, and on the other hand, you discuss herbal rememdies that do the same thing. Don't you find that to be contradictory? What makes you so sure that these herbal remedies don't have side effects?

 

Because there have been no clinical studies on these treatments for hair loss, many side effects aren't listed which could simply mean they are unknown. Additionally, since it hasn't been studies as a hair loss treatment, required dosage can only be guessed.

 

But many of them have been studied as a treatment for BPH (enlarged prostate) and have some level of efficacy as reported in the studies (and yes, research shows that many of these herbal supplements can inhibit 5-alpha-reductase enzymes which when combined with testosterone, creates DHT). These studies also have reported side effects.

 

If you research Saw Palmetto, you will find that the same warning exists as for finasteride that women who are pregnant, trying to get pregnant, or lactating women should not use Saw Palmetto.

 

Side effects of Nettles when applied topically can include scalp irritation, allergic reation.

 

Side effects of Nettles when taken orally include: upset stomach, burning, difficulty with urination, bloating, and edema.

 

A warning about nettles states: this product should not be used in patients with heart or kidney problems as due to fluid retention properties.

 

I am not against the concept of herbal remedies. But one must understand that the majority of herbal remedies for hair loss have not been proven as an effective hair loss treatment. And like many other products in the world, they are often over marketed by big name products in order to make a sale.

 

Bill

[Matt Skiba]

Bill sometimes I wonder if Merck pays you.

 

Side effects with the herbs are almost unheard of, and finasteride is a much more potent synthetic chemical. There is also not a forum on the internet solely dedicated to irreversible or long last side effects of saw palmetto or stinging nettle.

 

Also azelaic acid has been clinically proven to reduce large amounts of DHT in the skin where you apply it to, you can look this up on pubmed.

 

You also remove the link in my signature which is nothing more than a link to an informational blog about natural treatments, claiming it is "promotional in nature" and is "marketing products" even though I don't see it.

 

Bill I have a challenge for you:

 

Since you believe the idea that Propecia is a safe drug so strongly, let's see your own blood tests and hormone profile to see how you are currently reacting to the drug. If you have decent health care insurance and can find an independent lab to do this for you it might only run you about 60 bucks, and you get the added benefit of seeing some basic health statistics like you would at a regular doctor's checkup. You can also order the tests off the net and do them yourself, but I think this is more expensive and going to an actual place seems more legit, but if you would happen to decide on doing it like this, I have heard Quest is a good company for it. Many doctor's won't order these tests for you, so you have to find an independent lab yourself.

 

I would suggest you scan the paper itself along with the phone number and address of the facility to prove that you are not showing us fake results. Obviously it would be a good idea to remove any of your personal information you feel necessary such as your address and phone number from the scanned image, you can easily do this using MS paint.

 

I think many people here would be interested in seeing the forum's #1 member's bloodwork, if your blood tests do show that everything outside of DHT is within normal ranges, you will have proved your argument in the best way possible, and I will not go about telling people not to take Propecia on this forum anymore.

 

I suggest you get the following done:

 

Total Testosterone

Free (Bioavailable) Testosterone

DHT

Estradiol (E2)

Estrone (E1)

Total Estrogens

LH (Luteinizing Hormone)

FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone)

DHEA-s

Cortisol

SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin)

Prolactin

Progesterone

Albumin

ACTH (Adrenocorticotropic Hormone)

PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen)

Aldosterone

Androstenediol glucuronide (Adiol-G) -- measures 5AR activity

Androsterone glucuronide

TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone), Free T3, Free T4

CBC or FBC (Complete Blood Count/Full Blood Count)

LFT (Liver Function Test - AST, ALT, etc.)

 

You might come across a place that doesn't do all of the specific tests, this would still be ok, as long as you can show some of the basics like testosterone, DHT, estrogens, progesterone, and SHBG.

 

I would be very interested in seeing your results if you do decide to go through with this.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Matt,

 

Before you decide to put your head any further up in the clouds, why don't you read what I wrote on our Hair Loss Q&A Blog on Propecia side effects and try to tell me again how I am promoting the use of Propecia as a "safe" drug.

 

Matt, the problem with you is that you are completely one sided without any level of objectivity. For you, it is black and white: "Propecia bad, Herbal products good!" You are quick to discuss the side effects of Propecia but never the benefits. Likewise, you are quick to discuss the herbal remedies but never the side effects. The question that begs to be asked is why? What do you have to gain?

 

I certainly don't "sell" it like that.

 

Let me be perfectly clear...I am not against the use of herbal products. I recognize that there might be some value in some of these herbal products (including Azelaic Acid), but the majority of them have not been clinically tested to treat hair loss. In theory, some of them may just work. But since there have been no clinical studies for them as a hair loss treatment, dosage is at best a guess which is potentially problematic. I do believe however, in theory, that there is some potential to some of these herbal products. The conclusion that one has to come to therefore is that clinical testing is required to determine its level of efficacy, if any, as a hair loss treatment.

 

But since you have brought up my removal of your promotional link publicly (even though I had enough respect to private message you about this), I'll now address it publicly.

 

At the bottom of the article there is a link to an herbal store. The writer of the article you post is a consultant of, in other words paid by the herbal remedy company. Therefore, the article is promotional in nature leading the reader to purchase their products.

 

The fact that you were so passionate about keeping this link in your signature further suggests that you are being paid to somehow sponsor herbal remedies on this forum.

 

I strongly suggest that if you are compensated in any way to promote herbal remedies that you disclose this in your signature according to the rules listed in our terms of service.

 

But now I see since your promotional signature has been removed (Herbal Remedies Good approach), you have posted a new signature (Propecia Bad approach). This link has also been removed because frankly, your tactics are see-through and irritating. You promote one and use scare tactics away from the other. This is just as bad as the FUE clinics coming in trying to oversell its benefits while attempting to discredit strip surgery.

 

I expect your posts to start becoming more objective.

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[NervousNelly]

Matt,

 

I appreciate your commitment to educating individuals about the side effects of the pharmaceuticals. I for one am in agreement with you that they POTENTIALLY may be harmful and are DEFINITELY more likely to cause side effects over the herbs and natural products. I personally believe that yes, they too might have sides, but to argue that there may be greater risks with natural vs. synthetic is ludicrous. That arguement would proove fruitless.

 

What I have learned is that vanity is huge. Many of us are going to try just about anything to regain our hair inorder to retain our confidence and self esteem. Some of us allowed docs to punch large clumps of hair in a straight pattern across our hairline like "Barbie". I commend you for your efforts, but many are going to justify using finesteride because it may grow hair and are willing to gamble with the sides. People are not going to stop taking it out of fear. I'm sure that you understand that. It's unfortunate but thats the way it is. Finesteride is the perfect marketing drug. A person MUST keep using. Wow--would I love to have own that product.

 

You can keep up your stance as you may feel it is your duty, but unfortunately many will not bother to listen even with the most damning of proof.

 

NN

[Matt Skiba]

Originally posted by NervousNelly:

Matt,

 

I appreciate your commitment to educating individuals about the side effects of the pharmaceuticals. I for one am in agreement with you that they POTENTIALLY may be harmful and are DEFINITELY more likely to cause side effects over the herbs and natural products. I personally believe that yes, they too might have sides, but to argue that there may be greater risks with natural vs. synthetic is ludicrous. That arguement would proove fruitless.

 

What I have learned is that vanity is huge. Many of us are going to try just about anything to regain our hair inorder to retain our confidence and self esteem. Some of us allowed docs to punch large clumps of hair in a straight pattern across our hairline like "Barbie". I commend you for your efforts, but many are going to justify using finesteride because it may grow hair and are willing to gamble with the sides. People are not going to stop taking it out of fear. I'm sure that you understand that. It's unfortunate but thats the way it is. Finesteride is the perfect marketing drug. A person MUST keep using. Wow--would I love to have own that product.

 

You can keep up your stance as you may feel it is your duty, but unfortunately many will not bother to listen even with the most damning of proof.

 

NN

 

I totally agree with you, only after a while some people are private messaging me stating me their troubles on this forum, and asking for help, when they were formerly totally with the majority of the forum. The fact is that they need to be bit in the ass first before they come to the realization of what they've done, I myself am no exception from this. A true testament to vanity, I remember there was this old Greek myth about this guy who would do nothing but love himself. Somehow he ended up chained for eternity in front of a mirror completely disfigured and with this eyelids held open.

 

Anyways if Bill or someone who is "not experiencing side effects" were to get a blood test done and post it on here I would be highly appreciative, main reason I say this is because I have yet to see an individual hormone profile of someone on fin without side effects, I feel it might give me a bit of an insight on myself and what I may need to fix within me. Also it will literally be living proof of the safety of the drug, because such things are not disclosed to the public.

 

And to Bill,

You removing my updated signature seems pretty unfair to me, and to me it feels like you did that out of spite more than anything. It was a factual informative page with absolutely no advertisement and formal studies to back up what it says. These are not scare tactics, they are facts.

 

I think if you are going to apply censorship towards me then that degrades the legitimacy of this whole forum.

 

I don't think I ever straight out said that herbs are good, I just said they may be effective. My guess is that they are mildly effective and when it used in combination and together with minoxidil, spironolactone, or ketoconazole it can have some significant merit, I'm personally experiencing regrowth with xandrox and nizoral alone.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Matt,

 

I don't think I ever straight out said that herbs are good, I just said they may be effective. My guess is that they are mildly effective and when it used in combination and together with minoxidil, spironolactone, or ketoconazole it can have some significant merit.

 

This sums it up accurately and is what I've been saying all along. They "MAY" be effective, but there is no clinical proof for them as a hair loss treatment. Additionally, one cannot determine the proper efficacy of a treatment if you combine it with a proven treatment for hair loss - with the exception maybe of a HUGE clinical study comparing minoxodil by itself to Xandrox which combines minoxodil and azelaic acid in a controlled environment.

 

For someone who is so concerned about the side effects of medication such as Propecia, I can't even believe you brought up/suggested spironolactone. That is NOT an herbal treatment and has the potential for severe side effects. More about Spironolactone can be found here.

 

I'm personally experiencing regrowth with xandrox and nizoral alone.

 

I'm not surprised. Minoxodil is a proven hair loss treatment and there have been studies to suggest Ketoconazole works as a hair loss treatment. The question remains, would you be experiencing the same benefit if you removed the Azelaic acid from the equation? The answer? Maybe...maybe not. It hasn't been proven.

 

You removing my updated signature seems pretty unfair to me, and to me it feels like you did that out of spite more than anything. It was a factual informative page with absolutely no advertisement and formal studies to back up what it says. These are not scare tactics, they are facts.

 

I think if you are going to apply censorship towards me then that degrades the legitimacy of this whole forum.

 

I've already explained myself so I am not going to do so again.

 

Please notice that I have not removed any links in any of your posts when it was relevant and on topic. However, there would have to be good reason for you to post a link in your signature since it is consistent in all your posts. If you want to post a link, I suggest you create a hair loss weblog, share your experience with hair loss treatments with pictures.

 

Best wishes,

 

Bill

[giants]

There no doubt that propecia is a hot topic. It has been and it will continue to be until a better alternative comes out.

 

Matt i do undersated where you coming from but im going to have to disagree. It is true that propecia will probably effect some hormone levels, but every drug effects the body somehow. Every action has a reaction. When you put a chemical into your body it created an unbalance and something is effected. The same holds true to saw palmetto, nettle, ect...

 

It in the best interest of humans to better their lives in anyways possilbe. After all we only live once, we might as weel make the most of it.

 

The most inportant thing is that people are confident in their decisions. I am confidant in propecia and am therefore am not too worried about the sides, you should be confident in the natualy supplemented or anything you are taking. were all different and as individuals we make decisions for what we think is in our best interests.

[MrJobi]

Here we go again.

 

Matt's opinion is valuble but he focuses on the extreme potential side effect one may experience. As I always say, do a search on the net for Diet coke and the HARSH side effects you will find.. There are many on here as myself who has not had any. If he is recommending Minoxidil, that has side effects as well ( potential). There is no escape from side effects on anything you do to your body. No, I don't for MERCK I am stating the facts of what I have seen. One cannot take a stance and focus one way. Be objective.

 

As far as the "natural" remedies, they just don't work. Look at all of the vets on here..NONE support it because it does work. I used Procerin for 2 years with zero results..

[Bill - Seemiller]

I'll further add that I am not compensated in any way by Merck or any other company that promotes finasteride or any other hair loss product as a hair restoration treatment. I'm interested in what works.

 

Mrjb,

 

You may be interested on an article I'm going to post on Procerin soon since you have tried it for a few years. I'll actually be posting an article on Xandrox tomorrow. All of this information and a lot more can be found on our Hair Loss Q&A Blog where questions are answered daily!

 

I'll keep you posted.

 

Bill

[NervousNelly]

Most of you guys know my stance on this topic so no point in going into detail again. I agree with Bills statement that many of the natural remedies might work but there is no scientific backing to substantiate claims. Either way, might work for some and not others. I personally see no harm in trying as they are typically inexpensive.

 

My point about vanity clouding our judgement also holds true with steroids. Millions take steroids knowing full well what is likely to happen. I hear people say that the way they cycle them limits there sides or that they never have any sides and several other excuses. They might truly not see any negative effects but very likely are experiencing and I think that most of us here have now seen the evidence to back up the hype.

 

I personally believe that many of us will take the meds and convince ourselves that they are safe. For many they would continue to take them despite having bad effects. Vanity outweighs many other concerns unfortunately. I hope that none of my buds on this site ever have to regret their decision.

 

NN

[balody]

here,here nn.

ive been on fin for over 2 years,and at first i was convinced iwas getting sides(libido loss,erection softness,brain fog)but with this came loads of hair to my long time baron crown!what to do?i stayed on the meds of course.then i had the ht at the front and as it grew in i stopped worrying about the back so i stopped the fin, within i month i was hairless at the rear again i felt i looked odd so started taking it again.hair growth seemed excruciatingly slow so i got hold of some dutas that,ll do the trick!3 or 4 months on dut showed only minimal growth and after taking some good advice from mick mchugh decided to get back on fin, all the time shit libido etc.anyway heres the thing, about the same time i started taking fin i also started anti depressants,well i stopped them 4 months ago and with them went all the sides associated with fin

long and short of it is i dont like taking drugs especially not for the rest of my life.fin does work i can vouch for that but i also believe it fucks with your hormones(reduced body hair,watery semen,man tits etc)but it will keep/grow some hair.so it is up to the individual to take the risks for the sake of vanity.

i myself will stay on fin till i have my 2nd proceedure in november,hopefully then i can come off of fin stay off the anti deps and spend the rest of my life med free!

notgoing2go and giants i say take the stuff for 6 months see how you feel in yourselves and then weigh up the results,good luck.

[MrJobi]

I tried Procerin for 2 years and didnt see anything special .. No extra growth from just the Propecia alone..

 

The dispute on side effects will go on forever but the fact of the matter is everyone is different.. Some may have em and some may not. Some people don't smoke and get cancer while others smoke 2 packs a day and live until they are 90...

 

That's life

 

P.s. Talk about side effects, take a look at the tons of side effects anti depressants may cause

[Bill - Seemiller]

Propecia side effects should not be a dispute...

 

The facts are clear!

 

It can be effective and there are clinical studies that prove it. Side effects are possible, period!

 

I believe that sharing the benefits, limitations, and risks associated with Propecia is important...these make the "facts" of the case.

 

The only dispute worth having is about herbal remedies. Because there are no clinical studies it can be "fun" to debate the theory behind why they might work as a hair loss treatment. I believe there is potential to many of these herbal remedies, as I said, in theory, they might help. But since there are no clinical studies, one can either "believe" or "disbelieve" that they will combat hair loss.

 

Let's try to remember that we are talking about a "belief" or "disbelief" based on strictly anecdotal studies (at best) - therefore one cannot conclude with any degree of certainty one way or the other.

 

That being said, I have a tendency not to go around recommending a treatment until it's been clinically proven.

 

Bill

[nobuzz4me]

Easy to blame Merck as profit hungry but lets not kid ourselves into thinking "natural herbs" are not profit driven. This is a big industry as well (GNC anyone). By the way just because something grows naturally vs synthetic does not mean it cannot do harm to your body. There are many poisons in the wild.

 

If you dont think herbs can do damage just look at Ozzie Ozbourne

[MrJobi]

You cannot blame Merck, nobody forces anyone to take drugs. Everyone has a choice.. The same marketing is used in everyday products:

 

Mcdonalds

Clothing

Fitness items

etc.

 

Blame Capitalism if anything but hey, everyone has a choice. People should take responsibility for their actions and quit blaming others..

If not they get a big

Boo Hoo from me.

[Matt Skiba]

Arguing that "Diet Coke also has side effects" is a futile one. That is seriously a whole different thing, not to mention side effects are much less common. Same with minoxidil or natural products, the side effects of those products is much less often reported.

 

I think the anabolic steroids comparison is a much better one.

 

Because:

 

1. Many people use it saying there is no side effects.

 

2. It can fuck up your hormones, permanently for some.

 

3. It serves vanity purposes.