Follicle1984

Not going to argue with that statement. Very true. It's just tough I guess for those people hit badly with finasteride/5AR side effects, not to worry about anything which messes with androgen signalling at some level along the pathway (including the AR). I know you had sides too. It's great you've found the courage to try the topical dut and that its working for you...I salute you for that. Indeed your efforts and bloods may give me the courage to try it for myself if xyon ever comes to the UK 🙏 Like you said also...it would just be nice to have had a little more data about cosmerna and how they propose it should not cause systemic anti androgenic side effects. I know they state there were non...but it was a very small study. If there was a proposed mechanism at play to reduce or prevent systemic absorption (like fluradil being hydrophobic and degrading in water, or topical dut having a higher molecular weight, or even the whole siloxy absoption system, or an ultra low dose locally as with dut mesotherapy)... then Great...but I've not seen a proposed mechanism with cosme. So I presume it's just a concentration dependent thing like we've discussed before. That they hope the drug will be most active on the scalp and the effects will be mostly localised there. This would obviously fit that they first tried a lower concentration...being cautious incase it went systemic. As you could argue why not use a 10mg dose every week if 5mg worked well? It suggests they MAY actually be worried this would cause systemic antiandrogenic sides. Would have been nice if they measured serum concentration of their cosmerna...not sure they did that did they? Anyway...ultimately time will tell here. In 6 to 12 months we should all have a better idea those who use this product will become the testers. Its just a shame as this will never give results which cannot be quite heavily biased and skewed. So ultimately it may be, as with everything here...people just need to give it a go...or not. I presume even if androgen receptors are knocked down for a while where we dont want them to be they will replenish with time anyway if the drug is stopped...hence the need for ongoing doses of cosme!

Has anyone in the UK ordered cosmerna yet from the site which is up and running? I read that it would be sold on amazon here in the UK but I don't see it yet?

This is just how I feel too currently. Such a small study to base safety and efficacy upon. Tbh Im tempted to wait for 3 to 6 months and see how others more willing and eager get on with it. Wouldn't be great if it did cause systemic issues afew months in. If it did, i would rather have taken fin or dut and at least know much more about those drugs and the likely time course of recovery. Would all be a bit of an unknown if it happened with cosme. Although one would really hope its safe if sold as a cosmetic. The only issues I fear waiting a while is the nocebo effect clouding the waters.

Hello Had you previously tried topical minoxidil before your tried oral min? Did you notice much of a difference? And did you get sides on topical? I got quite annoying facial oedema on topical so a bit wary about trying oral.

Im with Melvin here. If it works and is without sides...the price seems very reasonable to me. I understand everyone is in a different financial place...but I would gladly fork this out to achieve maintenance alone! I would likely pair it with other things I can tolerate too. Roll on pyrilutamide and GT20029 for the ultimate stack 🤤

It seemed to clear and settle down within a few weeks. The ED seemed to take longer...sometimes 6 to 8 weeks. Never really heard of people getting nipple issues from pantostin or nizoral shampoo. Or do you mean they gave you other sides? I guess as we age hormone profiles change. Testosterone may be lower, estrogen may be higher. Consequently we may need more DHT to negate estrogen and make up for lower testosterone. Have you ever tried topical dutasterise out if curiosity?

Anyone know if this is definitely 100% legal and OK to buy from the UK? From an import point of view I mean. At the moment it seems to be available from one site which I'm guessing is based somewhere in Europe and sells it euros. I am aware from articles: "Bioneer announced on the 2nd that it has recently completed product registration with SCPN (Submit a Cosmetic Product Notification, British Cosmetics Certification Portal) following CPNP registration (Cosmetic Products Notification Portal, European cosmetic certification portal) at the end of last year. SCPN registration is a necessary procedure for the distribution and sale of cosmetics in the UK, and requirements such as the mandatory designation of a Responsible Person (RP) in the UK and the evaluation of product safety by a qualified person in the UK strict." From this above it would seem likely the product should get through customs just fine as its all above board and legally approved here.

You're welcome 😊

Sounds like a reasonable plan. I actually was quite shocked the first time i got the nipple sode effects. Thinking back it may have occurred closer to 1 or 2 months into my first time using fin. I had been using topical and gradually increased the dose to about 0.25 to 0.5mg every day. I remember for afew days noticing my chest aching and not being sure why. Thinking it was being sat in a drafty cafe near the door and I was cold. I literally hadn't twigged it could be fin for afew days of it, then suddenly remembered it was a possible side effect. So im pretty sure it wasn't nocebo. Also, my nipples were literally 3 or 4 times their usual small size most times I started looking. When I go off fin, 9 times out of 10 they are a smaller size when i look. Unfortunately even when I stuck to 0.25mg every day topically this eventually happened again. And again went away after ceasing the drug.

I've tried finasteride 4 times now. Each time I get ED and similar to you, nipple sensitivity and increased puffiness. The nipple effects usually kicks in after a few weeks and settles before the ED, which always seems to last longer. 0.25% is 2.5mg per ml which is actually a strong dose and I would argue 0.025% should be enough for most. You could try and reduce the dose and or frequency. If it continues I'd see a doctor incase it's something else...always better safe than sorry. For me, even low dose topical fin does the exact same to me...sadly!

I just wondered if I could please get people opinions (who have used both topical minoxidil and also low dose oral minoxidil) on the comparison of the two routes of taking this drug please? In particular... 1) have many people who had previously had to stop using topical minoxidil due to sides been able to tolerate low dose oral min? I had to stop topical minoxidil due to quite bad periorbital oedema. I beleive the rates in the low dose oral min study of periorbital oedema were just 0.3% so 3 in 1000. Have many people noticed swelling under the eyes or face? 2) are the results much better? 3) would love to get people's opinion on the subject as to if minoxidil actually may be stopping progression of the disease (like fin) but just by a different down stream mechanism (and not just classed as a "growth stimulant")? A bit like I think ciclosporin should not be classed as purely a growth stimulant but likely stops hair loss and encourages new growth by down stream mechanisms. Probably does more to halt downstream inflammatory immune damage than anything else. Thanks all

What's your methodology for assessing its efficacy? Do you have a hair catcher? Or a method to assess shedding?

Wouldn't that ruin your topical dutasteride experiment? I personally am still unsure I want to use it within the first 6 months. Not sure I'm willing to be in the first batch of eager testers. The safety factors is not really that clearly established to me. The study group for 5mg per week had 30 patients of which 8 for various reasons did not finish the 24 week study. Apparently most of these were removed for whatever reason (things that may invalidate the study results like using hair dye). But still we are talking about a study which has only looked at about 22 people. That is exceptionally low powered. If this were a finasteride study would it have picked up those who react badly to that. Unlikely. Not saying it won't be safe just that I'm not sure. And I could probably wait 6 months and see the anecdotal reports. Although I do fear the nocebo effect will play a role for some and there will be reported sexual side effects because it is a theoretical possibility.

More posts over at tressless stating UK amazon and European sales hoping to start early May !

Two threads about this now 😆

Must admit, after the message in the other cosmerna thread, I though the update was going to be about that (ie it is not going to be released in South Korea). Thankfully not.

For anyone who is interested...the website follicle thought has an updated article today about COSMERNA...reports are that it is to be released next month.

Thanks for finding and sharing this. I had been wondering what was going on. It seems the whole entry route into Europe and the UK via being a cosmetic product is both friend and foe. Yes if it was classified as a pharmaceutical, (which let's face it, it sounds like it probably should be, it's cutting edge medical technology designed to work on our cellular DNA-RNA-protein synthesis axis)...then we would probably not see it get through studies for many years yet. However, on the flip side, many people (myself included) are getting rather anxious about the lack of efficacy and safety data here. I am becoming more and more wary about trying this product out straight away. I'm sure there will be many who will no doubt jump straight in...the pioneers! It would just be nice to know this is not going to have serious anti androgenic systemic side effects. It seems plausible to me this could be just like finasteride (oral and topical) and topical antiandrogens like RU etc, where many are fine, but some are not. No doubt there will be some affected by the nocebo effect alone...let's hope that's all we have to worry about with COSMERNA! If it even gets released at all. Feel rather glum about it all now.

I've tried fluridil, been through many boxes. I would agree I think it's not overly strong and likely to ne ineffective for many as a monotherapy at 2ml/day. I'm currently using it again with alfatradiol until something better comes along through official channels as I can't tolerate fin sadly.

In all honesty I can't see why you would need to take topical dutasteride more than once a week at most. It's half life is so long. I beleive once it binds to the 5AR enzyme it does not let go, and the time to recover 5AR enzyme levels is reportedly quite long (like a 30 day "reverse half life" to get back 50% 5AR in the tissues...or around those figures). Dutasteride mesotherapy is only given at a dose of 0.1mg and sometimes only monthly or even 3 monthly. So presumably even if 0.1mg gets to where it needs to via any topical route, I can see no good reason it should be used so frequently.

How much does it cost exactly? Can you choose to only buy one canister or must it be a subscription only?

Thanks Melvin. Interesting to hear your story. Yes I agree, instant side effects after just one dose seem much more likely to be driven by psychosomatic factors than purely physical ones to me. Like you, my finasteride sides usually seem to appear around the 3 to 4 week mark, at least most notably. I'm really glad the topical dutasteride is working for you. It still seems scary stuff to me with such high doses of dutasteride in there, but hopefully we will get more data on its effectiveness and safety soon. I must admit, if it was available in the UK, I'd probably give it a go with a very small application and just start once every few weeks and increase from there. I've emailed xyon afew times and they say they are working on getting that set up. There are other private clinics here which sell/prescribe topical dutasteride, so presume its possible.

Thanks Melvin. Yes I watched your YouTube video on this subject. Really great you are logging it like this. Can I ask...what have been your experiences with finasteride? Apologies if you've gone into depth with these before...feel free to direct me to another thread. I know you had sides with it. Just wondered how long they took to manifest? Guess if you've done two months with topical dut that's pretty good going. I doubt sides are going to kick in for you now to be honest.

Thanks for your input. How long has it taken for sides to start to go away for you TorontoMan?

Agreed Gatsby. Indeed this is the attitude I eventually (after years of paranoid anxiety), took up with regards to finasteride. I tried it. Sadly, every time I take it, after agew months I'm forced to accept I'm not reacting well to it. I know there are many who say it's all nocebo effect, and I accept this is real, and often I tell myself this is what's going on. However, I think it's sadly slightly more than just this for me. I would just try the topical dutasteride for myself, well I've taken two microdoses over the last 6 months. But I am really rather worried that if this experiment goes wrong, its potentially in my system for a very long time. If dutasteride was just a stronger 5ARi I would have no problem experimenting. Its the long half life that bothers me. Each time I've tried fin, it's taken at least 3 to 6 weeks to feel more normal again. So I don't want this time to increase to 6 months or so. 🤔 I guess I'm answering my own question here...that I'm probably not ready to try topical dut. The mesotherapy route may be more appropriate for me, as at least we have afew more studies (albeit not many more sadly). It's great you guys are all trying topical dut here though and at least this gives us some case study-esque evidence.