Ron J

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

god, i cant tell you all how bad i wanted to find that thread and shove it right up rons ass ..

Ironic you take such a tone when your privately messaging me asking why *I* want to QUOTE/UNQUOTE "publically BEAT YOU UP ", when I merely ask you for evidence to support your conspiratorial tone towards ht's; even more ironic that your frustration arises from an inability to disprove that the vast majority of patients are left very happy & w/a much improved look; which consequently absolves you of your great dilemma--you could indeed have hair & not spend your youth as a bald prophet warning others against the perils of ht's.

I guess you just like being miserable and victimizing yourself all the while being antagonistic to those who disagree w/your fictitious positions.

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

 

 

im sorry but anyone who thinks Rahal, or even H@W(as talented as they are) do not have 1.unhappy patients. 2.patients that did not yield great 3.patients who REGRET their decision, are damn foolsIMO. ONLINE RESULTS ARE A TINY PORTION OF HAIR TRANSPLANT PATIENTS..

 

Your entitled to your opinion, however if your basing your opinion on sheer speculation w/ zero empirical evidence when in fact ALL of the observable data supports precisely the opposite, it seems a grand leap in logic to call the very position reality favors 'foolish'; but to each his own. You've been making broad sweeping generalizations, so I asked you for specific evidence to support your position. You were unable to find a single case (although I asked for 9 in total, 3 from each dr. respectively which even then would represent a miniscule % of all of their over all work) in which the patients themselves said they were unhapppy; in fact they ALL were happy. Now after exhausting all available evidence, your appealing to possibilities. I know for a fact that Dr. Hasson alone has had about seven thousand patients. Doesn't the fact that your unable to find three cases on any forum in the WORLD WIDE WEB in which the patient is left w/a horrible result speak volumes to you? It's not as though we're dealing w/a small sample size, this forum alone has thousands of posts dating years back.

Your method of reasoning is the antithesis of the scientific method, we could call it The Unscientific Method. Scientists gather information from observable data, particulars', TO form broader generalizations and principles; since we're incapable of measuring data in terms of universals (all things possible). The Lost method (the unscientific method) states that unless we can refute all things possible we can't prove 'x'.

In conclusion, I believe your problem is you. This statement speaks volumes to me:

..."id like to believe in HTs, my god id like to, but HTs will never be able to give me what i truly want. my hair back."

You speak of ht's as a child speaks of unicorns or Santa Clause. HT's are not some new expiriment . Top clinics have years of experience and thousands of walking & talking living testimonials of their effectiveness. Does this ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BvdBQL6fmI ) gentlemen not appear to have his hair back to you? Do you not think he's happy w/that? If your that much of a skeptic, meet w/some patients in real life and see in person just how much hair they have. If by 'having your hair back' you mean restoring more than 50% of original density, well THAT is a mathematical impossibility; and I guess ht's are not for you. In the end, your correct no dr. can gaurentee you will be thrilled w/your result. But since when has life offered you any gaurentee's on anything?

Is it "possible" one of the top Dr.'s w/years of experience whose performed the procedure thousands of times will botch your ht? Is it "possible" some freak of nature will occur and your grafts won't grow? Sure; but it's also "possible" your airplane will crash killing you on the way there. All things are "possible," but some things are not very probable.

HT'S ARE NOT PERFECT.

YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ALL OF YOUR HAIR BACK, BUT HT'S OFFER A VAST IMPROVEMENT ON MEN WHO ARE UNHAPPY W/THEIR SITUATION.

YOUR CHOICES ARE:

a) GO BALD.

b) HAVE AS MUCH HAIR AS YOUR DONOR AND ULTIMATE NW PATTER PERMIT.

WEIGH YOUR OPTIONS & CHOOSE WHICH IS BETTER FOR YOU; NONE OF THE OPTIONS ARE ABSOLUTELY 100% PERFECT; BUT SUCH IS LIFE.

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

but frankly i think even the drs themselves would agree that SOMETIMESthings just dont go well... sometimes the patients just dont grow well, and sometimes even if they do grow well the results just dont end up looking all that great..

So this is essentially what it boils down to w/you? When asked for cases which you think reflect this, those were the only ones you could find?

Maybe SOMETIMES things don't go well, but when in the hands of a good surgeon the VAST MAJORITY of the time, things turn out absolutely amazing and they ALWAYS look better than they did pre-op!!! And yet EVERY TIME, ALL THE TIME, ALL you do is constantly demonize ht's. I can't imagine what many mens life would be like if they had heeded your voice and not got a ht. Just look at all of those cases I posted. Would you be unhappy w/any of those?

I'm done.

Case closed.

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

i felt this was a good example or a REAL bald man in the hands of feller.. IMO, it tells a story not painted by feller in the drs section... frankly i would LOVE to see drs post cases like these..

 

And what story would this be, of patients who agree to go for HALF the graft # typical of reaching the desired results? Should the title be: NW6 w/graft total for a NW 3 (?) You picked this case because you thought it was the worst you could find, when in reality the only reason it's less amazing then Fellers other work is because (for some reason unknown to me) the patient didn't get enough grafts for his case.

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

ron, first thing first,

 

id like for you to state where i said ANY of these results were horrible...

Essentially this entire discussion was me asking you for EVIDENCE of cases you deemed as bad results. These are the one's you presented.

LOL did you intentionally not post Wongs patient's final results? You posted 9.5 months here are his FINAL results which look FANTASTIC for the # of grafts to bald area (he had ZERO hair line and no hair on midscalp):

http://hair-restoration-info.c...081022263#8081022263

& his comments---" im very happy with the results but i will have to do another ht to lower the hairline and to do some work on the temples and sides and of course transplant some grafts to the crown" -AND-..."I WANTED 3000 GRAFTS BECAUSE I DIDNT have more mONEY ..this is why he didnt tranplant more grafts . the result is very good for 3000 grafts " -AND-" THANK U ALL I CANT WAIT TO DO THE SECOND TRANSPLANT ".

Does THAT sound like a bitter patient whose disatisfied w/his results?

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

http://hair-restoration-info.c...=923108772#923108772

 

my guess is this rahal end result would not "wow" any of you.. its a shame he stopped posting, prob so thrilled and full of hair that he forgot all about us. as a result im left to speculate

 

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/3081007343

 

i think i missed this result on 'H@W video fridays'... a LARGE difference in documentation you will get from H@W in the drs section

 

 

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/3681055843

 

here is a bald man who went to feller, here is again another REAL result... i dont know about you guys, but i really dont see ANY OF these types of threads in the 'results sections posted by drs'

 

I'm glad you found the cases you consider horrible Lost; at best your perception of these cases is odd & off; at worst your being disingenuous.

Rahal Case--

This is NOT an example of poor work. Period. Your going (and have been I take it) to assume that if someone doesn't take the time to post a result it must be because they were so dissatisfied w/their results? This is absolutely ridiculous and fallacious reasoning. In fact, I would be more inclined to think that someone w/a bad result WOULD post it complaining and spend much time on forums warning off others of the horrible mistake they made. Sound familiar Lost?...

Wong Case:

Take note this is only 9.5 months post op ( AND I ADDED HIS FINAL RESULTS IN THE FOLLOWING POST ) and in some pics his hair is wet, and in others pushed back; and most of the 'balding area' had ZERO work done in it. The patient HIMSELF said he was happy. Also, if you look at the total # of grafts he received it isn't optimal for density in the area. I recall this patient posted that he didn't get more grafts because MONEY was an issue for him personally; do a search under his name and you can easily find this info. Can't fault the surgeon here, as I'm sure this was made clear to him pre-op. Also, your conspiratorial tone regarding some alleged discrepancy between this result and what's posted in the Dr.'s section is evidence of your more than skeptical perception of all ht dr.'s as a result of your previous abuse by one; it also flys in the face of your very reasoning in your signature *** RESULTS WILL 100%, without a DOUBT, VARY*** ....And your saying the results I posted in the patient section aren't amazing by H&W?!?!?!??! Tell me this---would you be disatsified w/ANY of those results?

Feller Case:

Once again, this man was a NW6---slap skinned bald head and only received ~3K grafts. How can you fault the surgeon here? Dr.'s aren't miracle workers. Everyone knows one would need ~6K grafts to achieve some semblance of restoration. Surely YOU are aware of this w/all of your years of research (?) My guess is either donor density or money was an issue for this patient, BOTH of which he would have been well aware of the limitations he faced in a single procedure BEFORE the operation.

Given the cases you've presented (or lack there of; you only presented 1 from each dr) and your rationale, I'm beginning to think you haven't really thought this through too well -OR- as is the case w/the molestation victim, you can't ever trust a Dr. again and have pent up hatred/frustration for them in general; which is understandable, I don't blame you.

But, either way the conclusions you've reached haven't been matched w/evidence to back them up. Surely, you knew that 3K grafts on a NW 6 isn't going to give one a significant amount of coverage and density, surely you knew this, no?

Originally posted by wantego:

I think this thread seems to have gone a bit off course. I do not think LMS should be attacked for his opinions regarding HT's nor should anybody else for their opinions regarding HT's.

The original question has to do w/the authenticity of ht results as posted online; which is precisely what's being discussed.

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

... pick a dr and I can show you patients who were left worse off, i can show you an unhappy patient..the difference is a dr like rahal, feller, hasson, wong, have these mishaps, far less often...

 

i see a HUGE difference in the two sections of this forum in which drs post results and the one in which patients post....

 

Lost,

ok. Since by stating that w/Rahal, Feller, & H&W (all of whom I believe are world class surgeons) leave patients looking worse off FAR LESS OFTEN, it's clear you believe they do indeed sometimes leave them looking worse off. Now lost, I wasn't aware that you've exhausted the forum in so much research, I commend you! But, it seems you have found things that I have not, since you speak of such things in every post. Now Lost, I have to disagree w/you that the patient based section tells a different story then the Dr. sectioin; on the contrary I've found some of the most amazing results in the section posted by patients.

Lost, enough of the generalizations, can you please produce THREE patients from each of the clinics listed above respectively who have indeed left their patients looking "worse off" as you say you've found(?)...

Lost, I have no doubt your intentions are good, and I'm truly sorry if you were butchered by a poor Dr.---I wouldn't wish that upon anyone. If you YOURSELF don't wish to remedy your situation w/repair work, then that's your call; BUT I do feel that by your perpetual peppering the forum w/such blanket negative generalizations about ht's you could be steering many men away from not only a viable solution to their hair loss, but as a result, a significantly positive decision which will radically alter the course of their daily lives. You wouldn't want to do that would you? In being the recipient of a poor ht yourself, I have to wonder if it's somewhat akin to a molestation victim:

you never trust a man behind closed doors again (?)...

Now, since I'm asking you for THREE cases from EACH of the clinics above in which they left their patients worse off, I think it's only fair I post some pictures taken by patients---why we have to ignore the VIDEOS posted by the likes of Feller and H&W (in HIGH DEFINITION) which show comb throughs is beyond me, but nevertheless I shall play your game---in which the results are stellar. Keep in mind some of these patients have not even reached full maturation (12 months) yet; and also keep in mind I"m only asking you for THREE cases from each clinic.

HASSON:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BvdBQL6fmI

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/8201026103

http://usuarios.lycos.es/forotc/neo/neo.html

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/we...lution|gallery10.cfm

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/we...nsplant|gallery1.cfm

http://usuarios.lycos.es/forotc/spanish/spanish.html

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/7321022883

http://www.hassonandwong.com/p...t-stories.php?page=7

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/1501037773

http://hair-restoration-

info.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2566060861/m/7101005473

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/7321083502

http://www.hairtransplantnetwo...CopyID=1856&WebID=74

http://hair-restoration-info.c...861/m/9571019192/p/3

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/7991021813

RAHAL:

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/4221058673

http://hair-restoration-info.c...66060861/m/196102142

http://www.hairtransplantnetwo...opyID=3260&WebID=983

http://hair-restoration-info.c...66060861/m/691108651

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/7661030273

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/3701007053

FELLER:

http://www.hairtransplantnetwo...opyID=2050&WebID=557

http://hair-restoration-info.c...66060861/m/163105802

http://hair-restoration-info.c...66060861/m/702103812

http://www.hairtransplantnetwo...pyID=3473&WebID=1248

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/5471088782

http://hair-restoration-info.c...6060861/m/8821022783

someone say escort?

Although it really sucks & your experiencing it to an extreme degree, temporary shock loss and shedding of the new grafts is perfectly normal; so we can't really assume or conclude anything has gone awry in your case yet.

I'm confused though, in another thread you used two separate SN's (in the SAME thread) and also talked about a sunburn post op. Was this sunburn and the consequent damage after your first or second procedure? If after first, is this why you got a second? Why are you using two different screen names on the same site and even w/in the same thread?

Best of luck.

Originally posted by lost my swagger:

look long enough you will find both good and bad about every single "top" doc out there...

 

 

people like to throw this line out alot when a top doc has a poor result..."nobody bats a thousand"... and just like that 'dr x' is off the hook and we all forgive and move on, and wait for more cherry picked results that we use to convince ourselves this procedure is a great idea for us. but only as long as he is a dr we all like.. its a cute process, really

I agree w/some of what you say, but strongly disagree w/your reasoning and the general conclusion you reach. It's true, the false analogy "nobody bats a 1,000" is a vacuous platitude IF ---this is a big if--- someone is left w/an atrocious result. When people treat a surgeon as though he merely missed a ball, that was for all intensive purposes intended to go past him by the thrower, I believe they do the SKILLED surgeons in the ht field an injustice, all the while the patient is left w/a monstrosity on his head. If a patient is truly left looking worse than he was pre-op and depleted of precious finite donor hair, than IMO that's tantamount to Barry Bonds waiting for the ball to be caught swiftly in the catchers mitt, then taking his bat over his head and cracking the umpires skull open w/it.

It is also true that "results will 100% vary"; how could they not, when we each have singularly unique hair w/which the dr. is working (?). It would be tantamount to allowing Picasso to paint the portraits of three women: one modest, one OBESE pig, and one gorgeous and sumptuous as sin. Wouldn't the three portraits "vary" although they were painted by one and the same master of the arts? Where you seem to go astray w/your reasoning (and which consequently I believe is precisely why people are complaining that your "so negative" on every thread) is that you conclude that the "not bat 1,000" results FROM *excellent* surgeons is somehow not an improvement from their previous state -AND- that these same dr.'s "cherry pick" the results to show. If you do enough research on here you will find that there are a select number of dr.'s who have NEVER left a patient looking worse off than when he came to them -AND- have always gotten what appeared to be a significantly high yield. You'll also find posters who used the forum long before their ht, then went balls out showing monthly updates. In such instances, it's clear there's no cherry picking going on.

Originally posted by Drew35:

I have to admit when I heard this news I got a little teary eyed as I realized I am not going to be a "bald guy" anymore...I have worn a hat everyday for the last 11 years

 

Reading something like this makes me realize how adversely hair loss affects ALL men who go through it. Sometimes I forget this, because friends & family members (who aren't going through it themselves) don't realize how significant it is to me personally. Those who aren't suffering from it really have no idea how much it bothers those of us who are. It's heart warming to hear your candidness; it sounds as though you already felt liberated the day of surgery, as did I. I truly wish you the best results, and you chose one of the worlds finest surgeons.

Congrats.

The irony is so dense it could cause complications.

I routinely see Ultra Refined results from Coalition Members: Rahal, H&W, & Feller that include both mega sessions -AND- dense packing at 50+ grafts cm/2. But, I have yet to see any of the complications arise from these good dr.'s that Dr. Limmer states as clear medical facts. I just wonder if Dr. Limmer has personally experienced these complications; has seen them from any of the dr.'s I mentioned above, or he can't dense pack as they do w/out resulting in such complications?

Originally posted by Speegs:

I appreciate your opinion but i am looking for medical facts and opinions and not simply thumbs up enthusiasm from posters...For instance this is the opinion Dr. Limmer emailed to me, and he is a member of this forum and coalition:

 

"While many patients can do fine with 50+ grafts sq. cm you increase the possibility of poor growth, prolong/permanent pinkness (neovascularization) and ridging (scar tissue formation beneath the grafted zone). Also, for many 40 grafts/cm2 is reasonable and decreases the risk of post op shock loss of existing hair.

Finally, with less risk you can always go back and do an additional pass if needed.

Those are not just my opinion, but also plain fact born out of seeing what happens with higher and higher densities of planting Complications might not always occur, but when they do it is a problem. So I try to avoid this happening.

Brad Limmer, MD/jac"

So, wait, where are these " facts" (i.e. demonstrable cases of adverse outcomes from megasessions) then out of the thousands of cases we see routinely cranked by the likes of: Rahal, H&W, & Feller?

If anything, I would be more inclined to believe the risks of having ADDITIONAL invasive surgery are greater than that of dense packing in a SINGLE session; such as:

-additional scarring to the scalp (recipient area). When the incisions are made the surrounding tissue is also scarred.

-possible permanent shock loss of patients' finite grafts.

-additional trauma to the donor area.

Not to mention exhausting additional unnecessary down time (assume 1 yr for every surgery to reach it's maturation) for the patient -AND- money.

Since the dr. is touting these as common " facts" associated w/dense packing & megasessions; I'd like to see what cases he's reffering to from the dr.'s who are known for their great work in this area.

Originally posted by super8mm:

I am sure lighting does make lot of difference, but I feel little thin than 7 months.

Super8mm,

you have come a long way from pre-op, but honestly the result does appear quite thin for that # of grafts. I'm having difficulty understanding what you meant in the quote above. Are you saying that you feel your hair has THINNED OUT after month seven? That your hair was thicker at seven months than it currently is? Please explain as this is interesting. Also, looking at your last picture in month 10, your donor looks thin and patchy in spots; almost as though you have DUPA (diffused unpatterned alopecia). Is this how it really looks or are these pictures misleading? How short are the sides?

Thanks.

Originally posted by PLEASE GROW PLEASE:

Serious What makes me laugh is you falling for the hype. LOL

In another thread you were blindly hurling the same accusations. I asked you for evidence. You couldn't deliver.

I asked you for THREE cases from ANY one clinic which matched the coverage/density of some of the following examples (and I could post a lot more) w/SIGNIFICANTLY less grafts. You could NOT. You said, and I quote --"damn. this is too much work". Perhaps if your THEORY were true it wouldn't be any WORK at all; yet it's not too much work for you to hurl these false and unsabstantiated accusations EVERY time H&W are mentioned? You took the time (and work) to post in this thread FIVE times alone! LOL.

http://www.hassonandwong.com/p...ansplant_type=normal

http://www.hairlosshelp.com/websites/london_lad/

Yes, let's forget the unparalleled amount of coverage/density they get, let's forget the unparalleled documentation such as HD vids, lets forget the rave reviews from ALL of their patients, let's forget that they are recognized (by OTHER DR.'S) as pioneers in the field for new techniques AND yes, higher graft counts. Let's forget all of this and be content w/: flash photography, dim-lit pics, half the coverage & density to that of H&W in a singe session, SO LONG AS theirs "hair counts".

Can you do me a favor since your so interested in this topic? Please follow through and show me at least THREE cases by ANY one clinic which match the coverage/density of that of H&W w/SIGNIFICANTLY less grafts. There should be a TON of them...***IF*** your false accusation was correct.

H&W's philosophy is transparent: in cases of extensive loss (such as yours') -AND- when patients characteristics permit (donor laxity & density, age, etc) they believe in going for max grafts in a single session, affording the patient minimal down time and a less invasive experience a long w/many other benefits.

Why have two surgeries what can be achieved (by some) in only one?

Out door pics under direct sunlight...indoor pics SOPPING wet...hair is actually styled & cut by someone ELSE... why can't everyone do mop-blogs like this rather than attaching a flow-bee to their vaccume cleaner, as though it's some weed wacker removing unwanted folage from their head, shoving their hair to the side and snapping some shots under a (DARK) bridge.

The world will never know.

I watched ~1 min of the first link. Personally, I don't care for ANY 'reality' tv shows; as their so far fetched from reality and tailored toward a television audience. Young guy losing hair--->mom tells him FUNGUS causes baldnesss--->turned off.

I really don't see anything I could gain or glean from this, other than verification that hair loss is adversely affecting other mens lives.

Absolutely--- A M A Z I N G !

tell me, how does it feel to have the hair of a god? I would never even imagine you suffered from hair loss. Your hair is so thick & dense it's regal, and surely enviable even among those w/out MPB.

congrats!

PS so nice to see someone w/a ht style their hair, let alone a fresh & modern style to boot.

Bobman,

your case & documentation have been an inspiration to many guys who probably would have never even considered ht's otherwise. Your pics truly tell just how far the technology has come. It will be cool to follow your latest experiment.

Hairthere,

my god you have the locks of a Greek god; looks like Vincent from Entourage. Do you have any pre-ops? How bald were you?

Sorry, didn't mean to derail your thread bobman but I need to inquire about this beast.

Originally posted by Ron J:

Question-- how would the density hold up if you pushed up the frontal thirdish area? Even now at seven months it appears you could get away w/a pushed forward/spikey-messy look. Any chance of some pics like this to give us an idea?

 

Looking good & your only half way there. Any idea on the graft distribution; how many went into the crown?

Congrats.

Originally posted by It'sGoing:

I've been debating whether if one or 2 transplants would be a noticable improvement for my appearance...My scalp has good elasticity as well, he noted...Also, roughly how much would I be looking at as far as two transplants go to get my desired results?

Personally, I would do a ton of scalp exercises (the more laxity the better) & go to H&W. Why increase the: monetary, emotional, & timely investment of a ht by having two, when you can go to a clinic who has the ability to do it in but one?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blo...8/3462/1600/3.19.jpg

I'm sure you've seen this case (and they have plenty more like it) it's just that no other clinic can perform a session of this size in a single procedure.