Unethical Physicians, continued...

[nikkop23]

For an example of why certain doctors are not recommended on this site, I think the members of this forum will find the following thread on another board very interersting. Where the graft estimate of 2700 comes from I can only imagine. And this kid is only 21 years old and apparently self-medicating w/ Avodart.... [shakes head]

 

http://hairlosshelp.com/forums/messageview.cfm?catid=10&threadid=62704

[Guest Rickmonius]

That guy's hair looks to be about a NW zero and to recommend 2700 grafts is ridiculous in my opinion. Donor supply is finite.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Nikkop23,

 

The example you point out illustrates exactly why Dr. Armani is not recommended on this site - despite all the hype and fan fare generated about him on other forums.

 

If indeed Dr. Armani recommended 2,700 grafts to a 21 year old kid with a thick mop of hair (yes "Norwood 0", well said Richmonius) this is just outrageous but not unexpected.

 

Unfortunately Dr. Alvi Armani is well known for dense packing young men in the temples at the first sign of any recession. Some of these kids will some day be men with teenage hairlines in front of large bald areas that no longer have the donor hair to cover them.

 

Any Coalition doctor could dense pack a kid's hairline until they looked like a werewolf. But if they did they wouldn't be in the Coalition.

 

In my opinion, I think when it comes to the name Armani one better be buying a suit and not a hair transplant.

[Guest Rickmonius]

Shane, Armani spokesman, is now threatening nikkop with legal action on the other site.

If you continue to make false and/or negative statements towards our clinic, patients and/or Dr. Armani including referring to Dr. Armani as employing "shady marketing" and/or "not being ethical", you will have to answer to them in court, as they can be viewed as defamation.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

I know Dr. Armani needs to know about that pesky ammendment #1 that gaurentees free speach (i.e. the right to have opinions and express them publicly).

 

I suggest nikkop23 make it clear that he is stating his "opinion" by prefacing his comments with "In my opinion . . . "

 

Dr. Armani, along with a few other notables, threatened to sue me in the past as well. But such intimidation tactics only work when a person allows themselves to be intimidated.

 

Again, in my opinion, Armani is a good name if you're buying a suit and not a hair transplant. But of course, that's just my opinion.

[nikkop23]

Yes, I tried to make it clear that I was simply stating opinions, but apparently objecting to the dense packing of 5000 grafts into the frontal third of a 23 year old was too much for them. Their threshold of hysteria is very low, as Shane's brief and ultimately doomed foray onto this site some months back demonstrated. Something about that thread I posted this morning about the 21 year old being recommended 2700 grafts really set me off, though. If you look at his pictures, all you really see is that someone needs to buy the kid a bottle of dandruff shampoo. But it's wearying trying to engage in discussion with several rational and literate posters, the Armani online gestapo, and dozens of cheerleading early 20somethings who've seen pictures and can't understand why they can't do the very same thing right away. Examine the threads at any length and it becomes clear that some of them don't even grasp the concept of finite donor hair yet. I think I'll take a break over there for a while....

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Nikkop23,

 

It's commendable that you are fighting the good fight. Since you have no financial compensation for your sincere advocacy, you will often find yourself out numbered and out gunned by the online cheerleaders.

 

Some clinics are very sensitive to what is said on the forums because so much of their revenue is derived online. They count on people not having the guts or will to stand up to them.

 

You're right, their cheerleaders got their asses kicked on this forum a few weeks back and they haven't been back since. I guess they know this forum and its members are a tough crowd that doesn't take well to hype and transparent arguments.

 

Of course, in a few years you will be proven right. But that's small solace now, since even those you want to help will often even condemn you.

 

Kudos to you for having the guts to call a spade a spade, even when the spade wants to chop your head off. We need more people like you with balls on the forums.

[bayscholar]

While I almost completely agree, I would only like it mentioned that again we are making these assumptions based on non-definitive photos. As for the case on hlh forum with 5k being placed in the first 1/3, yes that is pushing the envelope IN MY OPINION but I don't think you stated that enough N23... sounded like definitive answers not just opinions...just saying you are walking a thin line be careful. Your post say all the right things ( I believe a hlh member followed up your questioning with.. I wan't to do the same thing so why is it bad?-you answer may help save him) ...just think you would be more affective if you watch your tone or state it as your OPINION more definitively.

 

Any how your fighting the good fight

[nikkop23]

Point well taken, bayscholar, but I find it pretty weak rhetorically having to bend over backwards qualifying everything I say with "it's only my opinion" because that much is obvious--who else's opinion would it be? Do I have to preface every declarative statement I make over there with an "opinion" disclaimer? Taken to such an absurd extreme, it makes for bad writing, bad thinking, and ultimately bad discussion, which I can understand is in the financial interests of certain parties trying to squelch debate.

 

All I was trying to convey in my reply to KK was that it is NOT a matter of opinion that someone who needs 5000 grafts (or even 2000 grafts, say) at age 23 is in danger of eventually reaching a high Norwood classification. From what I have read, final loss patterns cannot usually even be determined at such a young age. And I don't think it's a matter of opinion that hair loss does not stabilize in one's 20s. DHT inhibitors can't keep you above water forever, or at least you shouldn't plan on them doing so. But to have a clinic say they can just make it less dense toward the back should you lose any more hair in the future is an oversimplification meant for the consumption of overwrought and impulsive young men, and not what I'd call genuine patient education. Is this merely my personal opinion? Well, in order to indemnify myself, I guess I better say that it is.

[bayscholar]

n23,

 

Again, your message is good, I'm with you brother....just figured you would make more of an impact if it was refined a touch that's all.

[nikkop23]

i hear you, & will definitely have your words in mind when typing future posts. thanks for yr input bayscholar.

[spoon]

I'm not convinced it would be that easy to actually get something like this to a court of law and win anything, but then again that's not my area of expertise.

 

At any rate it really is, in my opinion, a risky decision for young guys (early 20's) to get thousands of grafts reconstructing (or just constructing) what I consider to be, in my own opinion, overly youthful hairlines. I think it is a fact that young men eventually become old men (if that is not a fact then please accept my apologies and consider it my opinion only) and when young men become old men, in my opinion they would not look good with low, dense, hairlines and very little behind it. Hair recedes back AND down (again, I think that's a fact but if not it's my opinion) and this can become extremely problematic because transplanted hairlines and temples don't move (in my opinion that's a fact). So whatever gets planted has to stand the test of time and look good later in life ... in my own personal unbiased opinion. DHT blockers are a great thing but in my opinion there isn't enough long term data to support the idea that they will fully halt the balding process indefinitely.

 

But hey to each his own, that's what makes this society so great.

[the B spot]

I like to think that they are financing new locations 1 20 yr old NW 1 w/3000+ grafts in the temple/hairline, at a time. When you think of it that way, it really warms the heart

[the B spot]

Notice I put "I think", which will save me from a lawsuit.

[bayscholar]

lol, not my point...but I think N23 was really making good point on the other forum thread about AAmiri, I just felt it came across as premeditated towards that clinic..not sincere as it could seem. I feel he is being extremely helpful and it would hammer his point home better that's all...not a general rule for post, just between me and n23 (and it seems you got my point)regarding to those individual who don't need a ht i.e any one 19-23NW1-2..in my opinion

[Bushy]

Originally posted by Pat - Publisher of this Community:

Any Coalition doctor could dense pack a kid's hairline until they looked like a werewolf.

LOL!

[dhuge67]

Shit, that kid has decent hair...if it were me I'd be pretty freaking happy.

 

As I am now I live on pills, concealers, and sometimes shave my head because it looks kinda bad - leaving a nice happy-face scar for all to see. Whatever, I did it to myself. At least it's not a horrible transplant, but definitely a C-.

[nikkop23]

there's a 4th year medical student on hairlosshelp today defending his transplant w/ Armani and laying out a scenario in which he'll be able to effect a full restoration using a hypothetical 11.5K grafts. his scenario and timelines are completely arbitrary, but just for the sake of argument (lol), has anyone ever seen the results of an 11K or 12K transplant case? has one ever been published on this board or elsewhere? i thought his donor expectations were highly unrealistic to say the least. just thought i'd ask--haven't read every single thread here (yet)....

[Lon]

As long as we are giving our opinions on here..In my opinion(I'm not on anyones side),I'm glad there are doctors our there that will give their customers what they want. If they want a descently low hair line and would rather use concealers behind it when they get older..than that is what they are paying for..If they wanna chance it that cloning will come along or that they can use body hair to help there density behind their hair line..then they have that right. Do I feel a doctor should dictate what i can look like when i get old..no don't. I have a grandfather inlaw who never had surgury and his hair line is 2 inches lower that mine..naturally..lots of old men have good hair lines..It actually makes them look younger than they are.. There are some people that think old men shouldn't have tattoos...should the tattoo artist dictate where they may recieve their tattoos on their bodies?..I don't think so. I think it is fine for a doctor to give his opinion and recommend getting a high (mature) hair line ..but am also glad that there are doctors that let the people decide for themselves what kind of plastic surgery they can have and how they can look.I hope I haven't offended anyone with my opinions.

[bayscholar]

Read your post and thought about Michael Jackson and how lucky he was his doc did what he thougt was best....then I saw your location listed as Waco so I will back off slightly.

[Beefy]

I guess everyone has a right to look like a freak even with tat's and a hairline as low as the wolfman.

[Jotronic]

Some may think that it's good when doctors give the patient what they want, others believe in doing otherwise. There are ups and downs to both approaches.

 

[Jotronic]

I'll let you figure out which patient was informed and which was not.

 

[the B spot]

I understand those of you who are for the doctor giving the patient what they want. However, ANY patient who was truly informed would not make this decision, nor allow any doctor to perform this type of surgery.

The reason for this is simple: From 20 to 30, on a NW 1, 2, maybe even a 3, it is virtually impossible to forecast future hairloss. It is also almost impossible to forecast donor availability as well. A 22 year old may look as if he has 10000 grafts available, but by 35 that number is reduced to 7500. (just theoretical numbers) The point is, aggressively depleting donor in a patients ages 20 to 30, in order to "close" the temple region and lower hairlines is setting up potential disaster.

Another point we are missing is that the doctor should be able to perform these surgeries, whether the patient wants it or not.

 

I have never viewed a person either by photo or seen on person who had 10, 11,000 grafts transplanted. Given the where we are at in the industry, just 4 years ago it would have taken 4 or 5 sessions to reach that number. With today's sessions, 10,000 could be reached in as little as 2 sessions, realistically and safely in 3. Would like to see it though

[NikkiJ]

It is the doctor's responsibility to always have the best interest of the patient in mind, regardless of the type of procedure being performed. With that said, if a young kid wants a procedure that does not need it, the physician should refuse, period. If they do not they are not living up to their Hippocratic oath.

 

I just don't see how doctors can live with themselves at the end of the day knowing that in 10-20 years their patient will probably look completely ridiculous. A physician should always consider the long-term effects of cosmetic surgery before deciding to move forward when you are dealing with such a young client.