Proper Microneedling Depth?

[jim1973]

In trying to read what would be the optimum depth for microneedling the scalp, depending on which report I read, they all have different recommendations.  I've seen some that state .6-.75 is best.  Others think between 1-1.5 is best, while others think it should be between 1.5-2.5.  I realize that some studies are referring to a dermaroller but I'm specifically interested in the microneedling pen devices.  Does anyone here have clarity on this topic?  

[bear56]

there is all kinds of information and it is really a difficult question to answer because everyone has a different thickness of layer of skin. case studies point to 1.5 mm thickness. i personally have tried that depth and it was not a comfortable experience. i backed it down to 1 mm for the rear and middle scalp to .75 for the frontal scalp where the skin is the thinnest. i personally don't think you have to get that deep. i use right after minoxidil 5% but it is recommended 24 hours afterwards, to avoid skin irritation. good luck!

[TorontoMan]

Less is more with wounding. I would keep the ceiling for the depth to be 1.5mm and I think a good medium is 1-1.25. I think the intention should be to wound the area but avoid damaging or irritating it. 

[jim1973]

15 hours ago, TorontoMan said:

Less is more with wounding. I would keep the ceiling for the depth to be 1.5mm and I think a good medium is 1-1.25. I think the intention should be to wound the area but avoid damaging or irritating it. 

I have had 3 sessions (1/month by my derm) but at a depth of only .75.  I did have pinpoint bleeding in some areas but not all.  It was def more painful in front and less painful on top.  I may need to go up to 1-1.5 for the top.  

[bear56]

3 sessions won't do much. it takes 3- 6 months to really notice a difference in hair quality and hair fall. also at a depth of 1mm or .75mm you need to do it 2x/month. the more the better ( as long as your scalp recuperates ) and in combination with minoxidil it will be even more effective. i would invest in a dr pen #8 with extra cartridges. you will save a ton of money in the process. 

[ciaus]

Kevin from haircafe just posted this yesterday, worth checking out. He's posted about microneedling before and this is a good 15 minute video summary that touches on that history and towards the end goes into the questionable aspects/risks of long term microneedling. Along with some alternatives to microneedling for optimizing minoxidil results. 

 

 

 

[bear56]

6 hours ago, ciaus said:

Kevin from haircafe just posted this yesterday, worth checking out. He's posted about microneedling before and this is a good 15 minute video summary that touches on that history and towards the end goes into the questionable aspects/risks of long term microneedling. Along with some alternatives to microneedling for optimizing minoxidil results. 

 

 

 

i was waiting in the video for him to say if he has tried it himself but he never mentioned it but points to data  he probably got from googling on the internet. i agree for example that is no clear cut studies to proof its efficacy. all i can say is  that everyone is different. what might work great for you might not necessarly work for someone else. about scar tissue, if you use the cheap roller it might be possible to create scar tissue since it penetrates in an angle but high quality ultra thin needles that enter perpendicular like the dr pen are almost invisible to the eye. tumors from the needle puncture, hmmm. micro needling has been around for quite awhile and not everyone is trying to make a buck. as it goes for infections. every time you micro needle you have to start with washed clean hair , use some alcohol cleaner and of course a sterilized needle. some people reuse needles. what i noticed was that he showed predominant women  who used micro needling for facial rejuvenation and got infection. a lot of women use make up and if the skin is not 100% clean you will introduce bacteria right into the skin. people with acne should not microneedle if they have a flare up it can make it worse. he did point out that using minoxidil as an adjunct might enhance the effectiveness of  minoxidil. there are many people out there that swear by it. watch the video from " dates for plates " or vice versa  he has first hand experience using mn and is a trustworthy source. there are lots of opinions out there. it worked very well for me, i am in general good health, not on meds only minoxidil. i am not saying its a miracle. after 6 months of use i noticed that my existing hair got stronger and felt more dense, i noticed thin hairs that i never noticed before which were probably almost on its way out but still somehow alive. even family members that  had not seen for awhile commented what i did to my hair. i cant say for sure  that it was the micro needling alone but the micro needling plus minoxidil works very well. if i listened to everyone on the internet i probably would have never tried it out but i am glad i did.  so form your own opinions. that's it.

[ciaus]

 

16 hours ago, bear56 said:

i was waiting in the video for him to say if he has tried it himself but he never mentioned it but points to data  he probably got from googling on the internet. i agree for example that is no clear cut studies to proof its efficacy. all i can say is  that everyone is different. what might work great for you might not necessarly work for someone else. about scar tissue, if you use the cheap roller it might be possible to create scar tissue since it penetrates in an angle but high quality ultra thin needles that enter perpendicular like the dr pen are almost invisible to the eye. tumors from the needle puncture, hmmm. micro needling has been around for quite awhile and not everyone is trying to make a buck. as it goes for infections. every time you micro needle you have to start with washed clean hair , use some alcohol cleaner and of course a sterilized needle. some people reuse needles. what i noticed was that he showed predominant women  who used micro needling for facial rejuvenation and got infection. a lot of women use make up and if the skin is not 100% clean you will introduce bacteria right into the skin. people with acne should not microneedle if they have a flare up it can make it worse. he did point out that using minoxidil as an adjunct might enhance the effectiveness of  minoxidil. there are many people out there that swear by it. watch the video from " dates for plates " or vice versa  he has first hand experience using mn and is a trustworthy source. there are lots of opinions out there. it worked very well for me, i am in general good health, not on meds only minoxidil. i am not saying its a miracle. after 6 months of use i noticed that my existing hair got stronger and felt more dense, i noticed thin hairs that i never noticed before which were probably almost on its way out but still somehow alive. even family members that  had not seen for awhile commented what i did to my hair. i cant say for sure  that it was the micro needling alone but the micro needling plus minoxidil works very well. if i listened to everyone on the internet i probably would have never tried it out but i am glad i did.  so form your own opinions. that's it.

 

I watch MPMD too and link his videos sometimes as well. I don't know if Kevin has tried microneedling himself, but even if he did that would be just one more personal story. Most of the studies showing positive results are also giving the participants minoxidil. And like he says in the video makes sense when you consider the puncture holes from the needles are helping the minoxidil to penetrate deeper into the skin. And that probably explains most of your positive results as well.

The real issue here is maximizing the absorption and utilization of the minoxidil. I think a topical cream like tretinoin or stronger minoxidil formulation are better options to try before cutting up your skin on a regular basis. Not just because the long term consequences haven't been studied, but because each day you do microneedle your making your body more accessible to things you don't want penetrating into your body.

Now most days around the house or neighborhood that's going to be relatively harmless bacteria, etc. But increasingly with our ever more connected world we're in direct and indirect contact with more than most of us probably realize. With people regularly traveling to/from exotic or less well off places with questionable sanitation; all the things we buy online shipping from similar places; the problem of ever increasing strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria, etc.

Edited February 6, 2023 by ciaus

[bear56]

for the people that are considering retinol based product for their hair instead of microneedling

 

How to Use Retinol for Hair
While there are hair serums formulated with retinol, if you already use a retinol serum or cream in your skincare routine, buying another retinol product may not be necessary. According to Dr. Jaliman, you can apply the same retinol products that you use on your face to your hair and scalp — but do so with caution.

When used for hair loss, retinol might not always jive with the scalp's pH level. "The pH level aids in the barrier function of the epidermis and protects the hair follicles," says Dr. Green. "The scalp should maintain a pH between 3.5 to 5.5. Products that are too alkaline deplete the scalp of its natural oils and can make the scalp too dry." So always check the pH level of a product before using it. (FYI: retinol naturally has a ph of approximately 5 to 6, notes Dr. Green.) Everyone's scalp is different so check with your dermatologist first to determine if using retinol for hair loss is right for you.

The Side Effects
As it turns out, the side effects of using retinol on your face go for your scalp, too. "You can experience sensitivity, redness, and irritation, which can make the situation worse resulting in hair loss or thinning," Dr. Green explains. "The same holds true with regards to sensitivity. If you have a sensitive scalp, you should stay clear of using any form of retinol on your scalp."

Since retinol can make the scalp more sensitive, Dr. Green suggests using a spray-on sunscreen to prevent sun damage. She also points out that those with scalp psoriasis, eczema, or dermatitis should consult with a dermatologist before using retinol on the scalp. And if you're experiencing extra flaking, Dr. Jaliman says you may want to use a zinc pyrithione shampoo (like Head & Shoulders) to reduce dandruff and improve your scalp's health.