Switch from topical minoxidil to oral - Collagen reduction?

[jim1973]

I'm at the point where my many years of taking oral FIN and topical Minoxidil aren't working and I'm starting to lose all my previous gains.  I was considering going from FIN to Dutasteride (not sure if topical or oral) but also going from topical Minoxidil to oral Minoxidil.  I know there are some potential side effects but one I just learned about was how MIN can cause collagen reduction in the skin.  There are various threads/videos online where people have stated they feel oral MIN has aged since their collagen production has slowed down but not sure how realistic that could actually be.  Is anybody here well educated on this topic? 

[BaldDude]

42 minutes ago, jim1973 said:

I'm at the point where my many years of taking oral FIN and topical Minoxidil aren't working and I'm starting to lose all my previous gains.  I was considering going from FIN to Dutasteride (not sure if topical or oral) but also going from topical Minoxidil to oral Minoxidil.  I know there are some potential side effects but one I just learned about was how MIN can cause collagen reduction in the skin.  There are various threads/videos online where people have stated they feel oral MIN has aged since their collagen production has slowed down but not sure how realistic that could actually be.  Is anybody here well educated on this topic? 

have you thought about adding Dutasteride once a week along with FIN?  I've seen users online having success.

[Tiger2050]

Dr. Victor Hasson mentioned collagen reduction with minoxidil in his IG live with Melvin. Dr. Hasson said minoxidil users have compromised scalp tissue because of collagen breakdown and it’s very obvious when they dissect strips under microscopes. My skin definitely got worse while I was on topical minoxidil for an year, I stopped after consulting with Dr. Hasson who said he says premature facial aging all the time with minoxidil.

I also switched from fin to dut about an year ago and it’s been great so far. I had some mild side effects on fin but it’s been the total opposite on dut (higher libido, stronger erections, very frequent morning wood which never happened on fin). 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Tiger2050

[jim1973]

1 hour ago, Tiger2050 said:

Dr. Victor Hasson mentioned collagen reduction with minoxidil in his IG live with Melvin. Dr. Hasson said minoxidil users have compromised scalp tissue because of collagen breakdown and it’s very obvious when they dissect strips under microscopes. My skin definitely got worse while I was on topical minoxidil for an year, I stopped after consulting with Dr. Hasson who said he says premature facial aging all the time with minoxidil.

I also switched from fin to dut about an year ago and it’s been great so far. I had some mild side effects on fin but it’s been the total opposite on dut (higher libido, stronger erections, very frequent morning wood which never happened on fin). 

That's intersting that the highly reputable Dr. Hasson can verify these findings.  So you stopped FIN and began DUT last year.  What MG and frequeny were you on with FIN and what are you on now with DUT (and are you on topical or oral)?  Regarding MIN, did you replace with anything else?  My scalp always feels itchy, but I'm not sure if its directly related to the MIN or not.  I don't think there is a direct replacement for MIN though.  

[jim1973]

4 hours ago, BaldBobby said:

have you thought about adding Dutasteride once a week along with FIN?  I've seen users online having success.

I hadn't thought about staying on FIN and just taking DUT once/week but that is an interesting thought.  I actually saw that STRUT offers .10% of DUT and was thinking of taking that daily instead of FIN.  But your suggestion is interesting so may need to think about that.  If the DUT stays in your system longer though it would seem that having both DUT and FIN in system may result in the side effects we are trying to avoid.  

[BaldDude]

47 minutes ago, jim1973 said:

I hadn't thought about staying on FIN and just taking DUT once/week but that is an interesting thought.  I actually saw that STRUT offers .10% of DUT and was thinking of taking that daily instead of FIN.  But your suggestion is interesting so may need to think about that.  If the DUT stays in your system longer though it would seem that having both DUT and FIN in system may result in the side effects we are trying to avoid.  

I hope so. I had to quit FIN due to sexual sides

[sukh123]

7 hours ago, Tiger2050 said:

Dr. Victor Hasson mentioned collagen reduction with minoxidil in his IG live with Melvin. Dr. Hasson said minoxidil users have compromised scalp tissue because of collagen breakdown and it’s very obvious when they dissect strips under microscopes. My skin definitely got worse while I was on topical minoxidil for an year, I stopped after consulting with Dr. Hasson who said he says premature facial aging all the time with minoxidil.

I also switched from fin to dut about an year ago and it’s been great so far. I had some mild side effects on fin but it’s been the total opposite on dut (higher libido, stronger erections, very frequent morning wood which never happened on fin). 

What dosage do you take of dut, I'm thinking of switching too because I don't have any side effects on fin and have been on it for a year and I think I need a more aggressive dht blocker. What happened to your skin also on minoxidil, I've seen a few odd people mention on reddit but the general consensus and research says its doesn't age you.  And alot of people use it for beard growth and have not noticed those effects.

[NARMAK]

When you feel you're beginning to lose ground on Finasteride, the next steps either a change if already 1x a day 1mg Finasteride to adding Dutasteride into the mix usually to shore up the amount of DHT inhibited. You might be wanting to switch away from topical Minoxodil but just look into what oral Minoxidil has as side affects too just to be aware. 

Personally i think switching to Dutasteride for yourself might be a good start

[BurnieBurns]

15 hours ago, Tiger2050 said:

Dr. Victor Hasson mentioned collagen reduction with minoxidil in his IG live with Melvin. Dr. Hasson said minoxidil users have compromised scalp tissue because of collagen breakdown and it’s very obvious when they dissect strips under microscopes. My skin definitely got worse while I was on topical minoxidil for an year, I stopped after consulting with Dr. Hasson who said he says premature facial aging all the time with minoxidil.

I also switched from fin to dut about an year ago and it’s been great so far. I had some mild side effects on fin but it’s been the total opposite on dut (higher libido, stronger erections, very frequent morning wood which never happened on fin). 

This paradox around the fin/dut side effects is just fascinating

[GHTJourneya]

If you consume half a pill of any marine collagen supplement, that is more than enough to cover whataever collagen reduction you might experience, if any.
Note that most patients take vitamin supplements alongside with minoxidil, and vitamin-c alone boosts collagen production.

Oral minoxidil will boost your beard, frontal hairline, and potentially your donor area. It is far better than topical minoxidil and far easier to consume/apply.

At a nanoscale, even breathing will deteriorate your skin. If you experience any side-effects, report that to your doctor and you will work it out.

Restoring collagen levels on your skin is easier than resurrecting hair follicles 

[Tiger2050]

On 6/25/2022 at 1:11 AM, sukh123 said:

What dosage do you take of dut, I'm thinking of switching too because I don't have any side effects on fin and have been on it for a year and I think I need a more aggressive dht blocker. What happened to your skin also on minoxidil, I've seen a few odd people mention on reddit but the general consensus and research says its doesn't age you.  And alot of people use it for beard growth and have not noticed those effects.

Minoxidil gave me dark circles around my eyes, wrinkles and people around me kept saying I looked tired/haggard. Thankfully the dark circles went away and my skin improved a lot about 6 months after stopping minoxidil. I use 0.5mg dut/day. 

[GaryStruthers]

7 hours ago, Tiger2050 said:

Minoxidil gave me dark circles around my eyes, wrinkles and people around me kept saying I looked tired/haggard. Thankfully the dark circles went away and my skin improved a lot about 6 months after stopping minoxidil. I use 0.5mg dut/day. 

How did you switch to Dut? With a slight Fin taper, or straight switch? I’m thinking of moving over from Oral Fin and topical Min to oral Dut and oral Min. 

[Tiger2050]

15 hours ago, GaryStruthers said:

How did you switch to Dut? With a slight Fin taper, or straight switch? I’m thinking of moving over from Oral Fin and topical Min to oral Dut and oral Min. 

Started off once a week Dut and Fin on the other days for a few weeks and then alternated every other day before eventually switching to Dut every day. FWIW I experimented with 2 different generics (manufactured by Teva and Epic Pharma) and name brand Avodart. The Teva brand Dut gave me side affects (weaker erections and no morning erections). I switched back and forth between Teva/Epic Pharma for a few months and noticed my morning erections would always go away on Teva. I am currently on name brand Avodart and it works great with no side affects. 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Tiger2050

[GaryStruthers]

20 minutes ago, Tiger2050 said:

Started off once a week Dut and Fin on the other days for a few weeks and then alternated every other day before eventually switching to Dut every day. FWIW I experimented with 2 different generics (manufactured by Teva and Epic Pharma) and name brand Avodart. The Teva brand Dut gave me side affects (weaker erections and no morning erections). I switched back and forth between Teva/Epic Pharma for a few months and noticed my morning erections would always go away on Teva. I am currently on name brand Avodart and it works great with no side affects. 

Wow! Very beneficial response, and surely very relevant to the rest of us curious in switching. 
Many thanks!

[GoliGoliGoli]

On 6/24/2022 at 4:07 PM, Tiger2050 said:

Dr. Victor Hasson mentioned collagen reduction with minoxidil in his IG live with Melvin. Dr. Hasson said minoxidil users have compromised scalp tissue because of collagen breakdown and it’s very obvious when they dissect strips under microscopes. My skin definitely got worse while I was on topical minoxidil for an year, I stopped after consulting with Dr. Hasson who said he says premature facial aging all the time with minoxidil.

 

Wow thanks, I'm done with minoxidil I guess. Only been on it about a month. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

On 6/25/2022 at 8:00 AM, GHTJourneya said:

If you consume half a pill of any marine collagen supplement, that is more than enough to cover whataever collagen reduction you might experience, if any.
Note that most patients take vitamin supplements alongside with minoxidil, and vitamin-c alone boosts collagen production.

Oral minoxidil will boost your beard, frontal hairline, and potentially your donor area. It is far better than topical minoxidil and far easier to consume/apply.

At a nanoscale, even breathing will deteriorate your skin. If you experience any side-effects, report that to your doctor and you will work it out.

Restoring collagen levels on your skin is easier than resurrecting hair follicles 

You sound very sure of all this mate, but as a biology major I can tell you it's not always as simple as taking a supplement to "cover" collagen reduction. I'm not saying you're wrong either you very well may be right, but relying on supplements to cover or replace any possible damage you're doing is quite a gamble. 

[GoliGoliGoli]

On 6/25/2022 at 12:19 AM, NARMAK said:

When you feel you're beginning to lose ground on Finasteride, the next steps either a change if already 1x a day 1mg Finasteride to adding Dutasteride into the mix usually to shore up the amount of DHT inhibited. You might be wanting to switch away from topical Minoxodil but just look into what oral Minoxidil has as side affects too just to be aware. 

Personally i think switching to Dutasteride for yourself might be a good start

Can you elaborate on the oral min side effects? I've heard (Either from Kevin Mann or the More Plates More Dates guy) to avoid oral min but can't remember why 

[jim1973]

On 6/24/2022 at 10:46 AM, BaldBobby said:

have you thought about adding Dutasteride once a week along with FIN?  I've seen users online having success.

I'm def thinking about it.  Neither my primary doctor nor my derm will give me a prescription for it.  I can get from Strut though.

Edited July 13, 2022 by jim1973

[BaldDude]

7 minutes ago, jim1973 said:

I'm def thinking about it.  Neither my primary doctor nor my derm will give me a prescription for it.  I can get from Strut though.

What reason did your docs give to refuse to prescribe? 

[Rahal Hair Transplant]

Jim1973,

The one thing you need to keep in mind is that nonsurgical hair loss treatments aren’t overly effective when it comes to regrowing hair. They are much better at slowing down and stopping the progression of genetic pattern baldness.

The second issue is that oral finasteride and topical minoxidil are much more effective than topical finasteride and oral minoxidil.  If you are still losing hair, I do agree that upgrading from oral finasteride to oral dutasteride may be a benefit to you.  Finasteride only blocks type 2 5-alpha reductase enzymes while dutasteride blocks both type 1 and 2.  As a result, less DHT is produced in men who use dutasteride and thus, there’s a higher likelihood that hair loss will cease.  But since dutasteride is more potent, keep in mind that the potential risk for side effects is higher.

I hope this helps. 

Rahal Hair Transplant 

[jim1973]

5 hours ago, BaldBobby said:

What reason did your docs give to refuse to prescribe? 

Neither were willing to prescribe since off-label.  

[jim1973]

4 hours ago, Rahal Hair Transplant said:

Jim1973,

The one thing you need to keep in mind is that nonsurgical hair loss treatments aren’t overly effective when it comes to regrowing hair. They are much better at slowing down and stopping the progression of genetic pattern baldness.

The second issue is that oral finasteride and topical minoxidil are much more effective than topical finasteride and oral minoxidil.  If you are still losing hair, I do agree that upgrading from oral finasteride to oral dutasteride may be a benefit to you.  Finasteride only blocks type 2 5-alpha reductase enzymes while dutasteride blocks both type 1 and 2.  As a result, less DHT is produced in men who use dutasteride and thus, there’s a higher likelihood that hair loss will cease.  But since dutasteride is more potent, keep in mind that the potential risk for side effects is higher.

I hope this helps. 

Rahal Hair Transplant 

I've heard from others that although oral FIN is better than topical FIN, that oral MIN is also better than topical MIN (but comes with more sides)

[Savemyhairline]

I kind of want to drop minoxidil too. I started fin and min one year ago and definitely saw good improvement, though being I started them at the same time I can’t tell which had more. Statistically I suppose min is more likely to have caused regrowth than the fin but who knows. Hasson is also one of my top choices so maybe I should just drop it and of course stay on fin. Haven’t had side effects with either but the potential side effects with min frighten me way more than fin ever could.

[user13]

10 hours ago, Savemyhairline said:

I kind of want to drop minoxidil too. I started fin and min one year ago and definitely saw good improvement, though being I started them at the same time I can’t tell which had more. Statistically I suppose min is more likely to have caused regrowth than the fin but who knows. Hasson is also one of my top choices so maybe I should just drop it and of course stay on fin. Haven’t had side effects with either but the potential side effects with min frighten me way more than fin ever could.

What are the side effects of oral min?

 

Is there a chart with all the possible side effects from Oral Fin, DUT, Min and topical fin, dut, min?

[Savemyhairline]

4 minutes ago, user13 said:

What are the side effects of oral min?

 

Is there a chart with all the possible side effects from Oral Fin, DUT, Min and topical fin, dut, min?

It can damage your heart. I only do and would only do the topical. Kevin Mann (haircafe) has some good videos on it. I don’t know of such a chart.