Dr Bicer vs Dr Pinto

[Ronnie21]

Hi all

First time posting on this forum, though I have posted quite a bit on a UK based forum during 2022.  Brief background - I’m a 46 year old male with male pattern baldness and only this year have I seriously started looking into restoring my hair.  I’ve been on Fin and Min since 1st Jan and also Microneedling once a week.  I feel I’ve responded well to the treatments already, my crown in particular has seen significant new growth and I’m going to continue with the meds this year, with the hope of having a transplant in early 2023.  I’m about a Norwood 5 but am hoping my crown may improve enough that I’m happy to just have the frontal two thirds attended to.

My plan has been to have a consultation; with a UK clinic and then a couple of Foreign clinics and to then weigh up my options.  I’ve already had a consultation at the Farjo Institute in Manchester (UK) which is less than 5 miles from where I live and it was a great experience.  They seemed top class as people and as a clinic and they and I were pleasantly surprised at the quality of my donor - they seemed confident they could harvest up to 7,000 grafts without over harvesting.

From extensively reading this and other similar forums I’ve narrowed down my thoughts on clinics located abroad to Dr Bicer in Turkey and Dr Pinto in Portugal.  My criteria was basically looking for top tier results at affordable prices.  Dr Bicer really stood out to me from reading reviews, her one patient a day approach seems great and I don’t think I’ve found any bad reviews.  Dr Pinto came to my attention later and I’ve been similarly impressed with everything I’ve read about him.

The reason for my post is for me to hopefully understand better the differences between these two options, in advance of me taking consultations.  The patient feedback seems similarly excellent, but I’ve read multiple posts that place Dr Pinto above Dr Bicer.  Basically a suggestion that Dr Bicer is a good option for those on a budget, but that she isn’t ‘top tier’, whereas Dr Pinto is and might in fact be the best or maybe a top 2 or 3 hair transplant surgeon in the world currently.

I’m basically trying to understand what specifically are the areas where Dr Bicer might be judged as ‘worse’ than Dr Pinto, what should I be thinking about?  If I were to go with either of these options rather than Farjo I assume I’ll be looking at up to 4,000 grafts for a first procedure and my understanding is that Dr Bicer charges €2 per graft and Dr Pinto charges €2.75 per graft, so it would be an extra €3,000 going with Dr Pinto.  Just want to better understand the rationale if I were to choose to pay the extra.

I suppose it’s also worth asking if there are any other surgeons in this price range that you think I should be considering?  I think every other top surgeon I’m aware of is >€3 per graft which is then out of my price range, but have I missed any other top surgeons who charge <€3 per graft whom I should be considering?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and I’ll be sure to update once I’ve had the consultations.

[Ronnie21]

FYI these piccies were taken in late December 2021…..

[Ronnie21]

……and these were last week.  Hair is longer but some new growth evident and the crown in particularly seems to have responded nicely

[Nw7HPE]

Bicer is a great Doc , but judging from the results I would say Pinto is a step higher . In General I would stay away from Turkey if I can . 75 Cents is not that big of a  difference .

[Ronnie21]

21 hours ago, Kashnw7hope said:

Bicer is a great Doc , but judging from the results I would say Pinto is a step higher . In General I would stay away from Turkey if I can . 75 Cents is not that big of a  difference .

Thanks.  Travelling to Portugal is preferable to Turkey for sure, but both are 4 hours or less away, so I can handle either.  I have already ruled out Eugenix due to the massive travel involved.

 

€0.75 difference doesn’t sound much until you multiply by 4,000 grafts and it becomes €3,000!!!

[MachoVato]

I think Bicer is expensive at €2/graft. And Pinto is cheap at €2.75/graft.

[Falconary]

Both are great doctors, I personally considered Dr Bicer (among other doctors) but finally decided for Dr Pinto. But one important factor is that you need to make consultation and decide if their approach would be the best for you. I really liked Dr. Pinto's approach, suggestion for hairline, appreciated that he didn't want to use that many grafts and were convinced that I would achieve great density with 3300 grafts (other doctors suggested 4000-5000+ grafts, beard hair), etc. And his results were always top tier. 

[Ronnie21]

7 hours ago, MachoVato said:

I think Bicer is expensive at €2/graft. And Pinto is cheap at €2.75/graft.

Hi

 

Do you mind me asking why you consider Dr Bicer expensive at €2 per graft?  That seems low compared to other top surgeons.  Is it because you don’t consider her a top surgeon, or more that her clinic is based in Turkey?
 

Regards

[SoSoz]

4 hours ago, Ronnie21 said:

Hi

 

Do you mind me asking why you consider Dr Bicer expensive at €2 per graft?  That seems low compared to other top surgeons.  Is it because you don’t consider her a top surgeon, or more that her clinic is based in Turkey?
 

Regards

She used to be 1,5 per graft, changed this year to 2

[MachoVato]

9 hours ago, Ronnie21 said:

Hi

Do you mind me asking why you consider Dr Bicer expensive at €2 per graft?  That seems low compared to other top surgeons.  Is it because you don’t consider her a top surgeon, or more that her clinic is based in Turkey?
 

Regards

It's just my opinion and it has nothing to do with Turkey (I went to Turkey for my first HT).

I've seen the same cases from Bicer that everyone else has on this board and I agree they are good, but I don't think they are great. I don't see particularly great density or particularly great hairlines. One thing that keeps popping up with Bicer is her "ethics". Results are more important than ethics. Most doctor led clinics (as opposed to classic hair mills) are ethical. Honestly, this is a red flag for me and I've seen no evidence that she's more ethical than anyone else. And frankly, I can show a Bicer case on here that I thought she made a poor ethical choice for extractions. Again, her clinic is good not great, but I would still feel safe recommending her. 

I believe she's perfectly nice and caring and has excellent communication practices. €2/graft is low for a "top surgeon" because they generally start at €3, but I simply don't put her in that category.

I feel differently about Pinto. His outcomes are very good. I like his densities and hairlines are very nice. And I've seen a couple successful repairs, which are harder to do. 

This is why we all say DYOR... do your own research. Go through the cases, look for completed cases, not just post-op posting where most people fail to report after a few months. 

 

That said, Bicer might be the better choice in this case. Because, as you said, you will need more than one transplant. 4000 grafts will rebuild your hairline and mid-scalp but not your crown. Bicer will save you money and give yo most of the grafts. But for the second transplant, go to Pinto. He can improve density and make any refinements you want.

It's a similar strategy that I did. I went to HLC first and they did the majority of my grafts and gave me great density. But for my second transplant, I went to Bisanga for crown and refinement (at twice the price).

[Gatsby]

To me the answer is simple. I would choose Dr Bicer on every level. 

[Vann]

My opinion seek more consultations even from the ones you consider more expensive. De Freitas, Mwamba, Bisanga, Eugenix, etc. 

Having alternative opinions can help even if they are similar or vastly different. I believe ther are some cases where the first 1k grafts are 3 euros then can go down to 2 or something like that. 
 

However, between the two you mentioned I’ve see really good results from Pinto and sometimes I hear they give money back and may throw in some free grafts (I may be getting this confused for De Freitas) but that shouldn’t be the sole reason. I like the work pinto does and the mind set behind the approach in designing density and hairlines.

Money shouldn’t be the ultimate factor in your decision. You can’t undo what is going to happen once it’s done. If pumping out 3k more would put your mind at ease by going with pinto then do it. If you truly believe Bicer is the better option pick that. There’s no wrong or right choice when it comes to your subjective opinion on how you want your hair to be. 

[Ronnie21]

1 hour ago, MachoVato said:

It's just my opinion and it has nothing to do with Turkey (I went to Turkey for my first HT).

I've seen the same cases from Bicer that everyone else has on this board and I agree they are good, but I don't think they are great. I don't see particularly great density or particularly great hairlines. One thing that keeps popping up with Bicer is her "ethics". Results are more important than ethics. Most doctor led clinics (as opposed to classic hair mills) are ethical. Honestly, this is a red flag for me and I've seen no evidence that she's more ethical than anyone else. And frankly, I can show a Bicer case on here that I thought she made a poor ethical choice for extractions. Again, her clinic is good not great, but I would still feel safe recommending her. 

I believe she's perfectly nice and caring and has excellent communication practices. €2/graft is low for a "top surgeon" because they generally start at €3, but I simply don't put her in that category.

I feel differently about Pinto. His outcomes are very good. I like his densities and hairlines are very nice. And I've seen a couple successful repairs, which are harder to do. 

This is why we all say DYOR... do your own research. Go through the cases, look for completed cases, not just post-op posting where most people fail to report after a few months. 

 

That said, Bicer might be the better choice in this case. Because, as you said, you will need more than one transplant. 4000 grafts will rebuild your hairline and mid-scalp but not your crown. Bicer will save you money and give yo most of the grafts. But for the second transplant, go to Pinto. He can improve density and make any refinements you want.

It's a similar strategy that I did. I went to HLC first and they did the majority of my grafts and gave me great density. But for my second transplant, I went to Bisanga for crown and refinement (at twice the price).

 

Thank you, this is a really detailed explanation.

I have actually had a response to my enquiry for a consultation with Dr Pinto, to say that due to the high volume of enquiries, they are not taking further consultations at present.  I’m not sure how long until this might change, so I will likely cast my net a bit further afield and look into some of the other doctors that Van has mentioned.

FYI I must admit that every thread I’ve read about Dr Pinto, his work looks immaculate, even immediately post op, very tidy and not blood etc everywhere.  A true artist.

[Ronnie21]

1 hour ago, Vann said:

My opinion seek more consultations even from the ones you consider more expensive. De Freitas, Mwamba, Bisanga, Eugenix, etc. 

Having alternative opinions can help even if they are similar or vastly different. I believe ther are some cases where the first 1k grafts are 3 euros then can go down to 2 or something like that. 
 

However, between the two you mentioned I’ve see really good results from Pinto and sometimes I hear they give money back and may throw in some free grafts (I may be getting this confused for De Freitas) but that shouldn’t be the sole reason. I like the work pinto does and the mind set behind the approach in designing density and hairlines.

Money shouldn’t be the ultimate factor in your decision. You can’t undo what is going to happen once it’s done. If pumping out 3k more would put your mind at ease by going with pinto then do it. If you truly believe Bicer is the better option pick that. There’s no wrong or right choice when it comes to your subjective opinion on how you want your hair to be. 

Thank you.  You make some really good points, I will look into these and other surgeons.  Cheers!

[MachoVato]

4 minutes ago, Ronnie21 said:

Thank you, this is a really detailed explanation.

I have actually had a response to my enquiry for a consultation with Dr Pinto, to say that due to the high volume of enquiries, they are not taking further consultations at present.  I’m not sure how long until this might change, so I will likely cast my net a bit further afield and look into some of the other doctors that Van has mentioned.

FYI I must admit that every thread I’ve read about Dr Pinto, his work looks immaculate, even immediately post op, very tidy and not blood etc everywhere.  A true artist.

Only other Portugal option I know is Dr. Ferreira, but he's at €3. Spanish options start around the same price. Belgium is the same but you also have to add 21% VAT.

Good Turkish alternatives at €2.75/graft or below are very limited. HLC and Dr. Pekiner are about that price. Dr. Turan and Gur are about half that price and are excellent options. 

Scheduling is tough right now. I believe Bicer is even booked through the end of the year. People have been locked down from the pandemic for so long, they are now traveling for transplants.

[mrmane85]

Have you looked at HDC? I think Dr. Cristina is under $2.50. 

Check out their results on here. 

Otherwise Pinto would be my choice between those 2. He is on another level. 

[Grant Giller]

I saw Dr Gur and had excellent results 

I am 105 days post op now:

 

 

[Ronnie21]

9 hours ago, Grant Giller said:

I saw Dr Gur and had excellent results 

I am 105 days post op now:

 

 

 

Thanks for this, you seem to have had an excellent result!
 

Following the responses on this thread I have indeed cast my net out a bit further and need to do some thorough research into amongst others;  Dr Gur, Dr Turan, Dr Christina, BHR Athens, Dr Saifi, Dr Ferreira and maybe a few others.  I’m putting Pinto and Ferreira at the very top end of affordability as I really don’t want to stretch to €3 per graft.  Seems to be several options at $2-€2.50.  I’m quite fascinated by Gur & Turan as they are way more affordable…..your result looks great so going to do quite a bit of research into them.  My only slight concern is I’ve read that in general Turkish clinics like to go with more grafts…….for that reason Dr Saifi is quite interesting to me as he seems pretty conservative.  The best information I have available is that I might have 7,000 grafts available and being about a Norwood 5 I probably need 6,000 for adequate coverage of all areas.  Leaving just 1,000 in reserve sounds risky, hard to know how many should be left?  Very keen to work with a surgeon where donor preservation is a high priority.  Of course what I’ve stated about Turkish surgeons using lots of grafts might be a wild generalisation and possibly more applicable to hair mills, I guess that would be a conversation to be had during consultations.

 

Thanks!

 

[Grant Giller]

Interested. I spoke with a ton of clinics in the US, Turkey and Mexico. I am also Norwood 5/5a and basically everyone quoted between 3500-4000 grafts. My end result was 3,982 grafts so right in the ball park of what I needed. I think if I got any less than that then I would not have gotten the density that I was looking for. I think it’s important that your hairline has good density otherwise you won’t ultimately be happy with your results ! 

[Ronnie21]

Hi

Were the 3,982 to cover everything or just the frontal half/third?

[A Fue Good Men]

Dont rush. Most good clinics have a wait, you just need to be patient.