Combining Treatments - Important Question

[Einstein]

If you combine drugs for hairloss treatment, does that mean you have combined their percentages as well? For example:

 

Drug A = inhibits 80% serum DHT

Drug B = inhibits 15% serum DHT

Drug C = inhibits 5% serum DHT

 

Will taking all 3 drugs mean that there will be approximately 100% chance of inhibitting serum DHT?

[Blond]

Originally posted by Einstein:

If you combine drugs for hairloss treatment, does that mean you have combined their percentages as well? For example:

 

Drug A = inhibits 80% serum DHT

Drug B = inhibits 15% serum DHT

Drug C = inhibits 5% serum DHT

 

Will taking all 3 drugs mean that there will be approximately 100% chance of inhibitting serum DHT?

 

Short answer - No.

[Einstein]

Can you explain why not?

[Einstein]

bump

[Blond]

Hi Einstein,

 

Do you mean combining drugs available now to reduce 100% serum DHT? Initially, I assumed that you had three drugs in mind (e.g. Ketoconazole, finasteride, dustasteride)? It later occurred to me that you may have meant, is it theoretical to create drugs that can inhibit 100% serum DHT? to which I don't know the answer!

 

Regards,

[Einstein]

No you had it correct the first time.

 

If suppose dutasteride inhibits "serum" dht (approx) by 90%, and u add to your regimen saw palmetto which inhibits serum dht (for example) 10%, does that mean ure inhibiting near 100% serum dht?

 

I can't understand the lack od responses to this question. I personally think its a very rellivent and good question.

 

Same goes for scalp dht. If one is taking dut where it inhibits (approx) 55% scalp dht, and ketokonazole 2% where it inhibits (for example) 10% scalp dht, does that mean the combined treatments together will inhibit near 65% scalp dht?

[Einstein]

Originally posted by Einstein:

No you had it correct the first time.

 

If suppose dutasteride inhibits "serum" dht (approx) by 90%, and u add to your regimen saw palmetto which inhibits serum dht (for example) 10%, does that mean ure inhibiting near 100% serum dht?

 

I can't understand the lack of responses to this question. I personally think its a very rellivent and good question.

 

Same goes for scalp dht. If one is taking dut where it inhibits (approx) 55% scalp dht, and ketokonazole 2% where it inhibits (for example) 10% scalp dht, does that mean the combined treatments together will inhibit near 65% scalp dht?

[Blond]

O.K. I'll try to answer this, as it is quite difficult without stating what the drugs are and potentially do. We know there are two main enzymes involved in the conversion of T to DHT, so to theoretically get 100% inhibition of serum DHT you would need to block 100% of both enzyme types. To my knowledge there are no current drugs that can achieve this, even in combination.

I don't believe that you can ever inhibit 100% DHT unless you become castrated (as I believe the body will adapt even to make a small amount).

Why do you ask? Do you want to inhibit 100% serum DHT because that would be a crazy thing to want to achieve.

Best wishes and regards,

[Einstein]

I ask because I am currently taking the following:

 

Dut 0.5mg daily

Niz 2% eod

Minox 5% (just added)

 

I'm doing fine with these treatments at the moment. However things will change once I take "supplements" that increase the test in my body.

 

I'm thinking more test = more conversion to dht, which means more hairloss. So in theory I figured if I increased the percentage of test from converting to dht by combining more drugs then it will balance things out.

 

I am also considering increasing my dut to 2.5mg while on the supplement to suppress over 95% serum dht and almost 80% scalp dht. That should combat the increase test production in my body. Adding saw palmetto, I figured will also help suppres more serum dht.

 

I hope you understand where I'm coming from now.

[Blond]

Ah, now I understand completely where you are coming from. I can be more specific now. All the medication you take work through different mechanisms. Niz primarily helps by reducing inflammation and I don't think (although it has anti-androgenic properties) we know if it reduces DHT serum levels. Even if it did it would be unlikely to as it doesn't act at the enzyme level. Minox will also not affect DHT levels but helps DHT independently, to stimulate hair growth. Remember DHT is not the only factor in hair loss.

As for your regime, something for you to think about??¦. You are right that more T may = more DHT however, you haven't considered E (Estrogens). The more T that builds up, the more it will get converted into E via aromatase activity. Basically you'll get breasts. Now it's up to you whether that is a good thing or a bad lol.

 

From what I have read, most people wanting to do what you are considering take the approach of using an aromatase inhibitor whilst taking something like finasteride. That would result in more T levels as you have a reduction in T to E metabolism, whilst potentially warding off hair loss.

 

I do not condone supplements to increase T. I think they are potentially very bad for you however, trying to stop all conversion of T to DHT sounds even worst. It's a double edged sword??¦

 

This is my opinion based on being a scientist however, I'm not a medical doctor.

[Einstein]

Yes I'm aware of the increase of estrogen while on these supplements and i will be using aromasin to combat those issues. I dont welcome breasts or any other estrogen related issues!

 

My main concern was the increase in test, because more test = more test to dht conversion.

 

If my current regimen has done its just job at the moment at halting my hair loss, will things change if my test increases? If they do change whereby accelerating my hair loss, will it make sence to increase dut to 2.5mg as well to combat the extra test?

 

I'm aware that those who are predisposed to mpb take finasteride (or dut) when they go on cycle with supplements that increase test production. However, it's never been really confirmed if they just minimized the sheds or pretty much prevented sheds entirely.

 

Being a scientist is pretty awsome. You should be working on a cure for us.

[Blond]

Thanks, I'd love to have a crack at curing hair loss. It's just finding the funding. For now I'm quite happy with researching infertility.

 

I don't think you need to worry about the extra T. It's the rate of enzyme activity that will largely determine DHT production. The only real exception is if your T is very low.

 

Think of it like this, testosterone is like 'water' in your bath. If you pull the plug out you get a constant flow of water through the plug hole. Now, no amount of increasing the level of water will affect the rate of flow through the plug hole (unless you put your foot over it ??“ which is kind of what you're doing when you use fin and duta). So using duta is like having more toes in the plug holes but it really isn't a good idea to try and completely cut off flow. Your brain and body need at least a bit of the stuff.

 

I'm not sure my analogy has made it more complicated or not. Makes sense in MY head.

 

Regards,

[Einstein]

That's actually a pretty good analogy you gave there. I once read an article discussing the use of examples to not only better exmplain things to make them easier to understand, but it's not easily forgotten either. Yours was a perfect example. Thanks bud.

 

Btw, what are the sides associated with 2.5mg of dut daily for 12 consecutive months, before dropping it back to 0.5mg?

[Blond]

Cheers pal. Unfortunately, I don't really know a lot about dut, especially when taken at 2.5mg daily. I'm guessing sides may be similar and potentially stronger than what people get with finasteride.

 

All I do know is that type I alpha reductase (present in the brain and skin etc) will be inhibited, where as it should not with finasteride treatment). So you have more potential for cognitive problems. I think it is likely to affect mood, body fat distribution and possibly even quality of your skin. Whether its in a good way or not, I don't know?

 

However, this is just speculation and I haven't researched into any sides of dut. Perhaps someone else who has taken higher doses may be able to chime in'

[Einstein]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that no medical professional is able to figure out the function of type I alpha reductase in the body, particularly in the brain. With all the technology available, cures and treatments for unheard of diseases, yet we can't figure out the function of a type of dht floating in our body? I was always under the false impression that with today's day and age we know about everything (natural) in the human body.

 

Has no medical professional ever thought that figuring the function of type I alpha reductase may answer the lingering questions about certain illnesses and/or diseases?

 

Regarding the dht, is there type I alpha reductase in scalp dht as well? Or is only in serum dht?

[Blond]

Originally posted by Einstein:

I find it incredibly hard to believe that no medical professional is able to figure out the function of type I alpha reductase in the body, particularly in the brain.

 

It's not as simple as that. You learn by knocking genes out and then putting them back. I believe that knocking out 5 alpha reductase type I is too toxic in development. However, type II mutations are found to occur naturally without major health issues.

 

There is an awful lot we do not know about signaling in the brain. However, with more and more people using drugs like dut we're likely to learn more ??“ but likely the hard way.

[Julius]

Einstein check out this link on Aromasin and hair loss

http://breast-cancer.emedtv.co...n-and-hair-loss.html

I was thinking about upping my meds gradually over three years so I end up taking one Propecia and one Avodart daily without an aromatase inhibitor, now I am not so sure I will do it.

Cheers

[Einstein]

Originally posted by Blondie:

Originally posted by Einstein:

I find it incredibly hard to believe that no medical professional is able to figure out the function of type I alpha reductase in the body, particularly in the brain.

 

It's not as simple as that. You learn by knocking genes out and then putting them back. I believe that knocking out 5 alpha reductase type I is too toxic in development. However, type II mutations are found to occur naturally without major health issues.

 

There is an awful lot we do not know about signaling in the brain. However, with more and more people using drugs like dut we're likely to learn more ??“ but likely the hard way.

 

ha! sure, why not.

[Einstein]

Originally posted by Julius:

Einstein check out this link on Aromasin and hair loss

http://breast-cancer.emedtv.co...n-and-hair-loss.html

I was thinking about upping my meds gradually over three years so I end up taking one Propecia and one Avodart daily without an aromatase inhibitor, now I am not so sure I will do it.

Cheers

 

i'm pretty sure cancer patients take aromasin at high doses at least 25mg. Taking it 12.5mg every other day is enough for us. Besides, you don't want to drop estrogen too much.

 

And I wouldnt put too much weight on that article.

 

By the way, I think I read in quite a few places that taking fin and dut together bears no fruit.

[Blond]

Besides, you don't want to drop estrogen too much.

 

Can i just ask why do you say that?

 

By the way, I think I read in quite a few places that taking fin and dut together bears no fruit.

 

This goes back to what I was saying about synergic effects of drugs, e.g. FIN (60% reduction in serum DHT) + DUT (90% reduction in serum DHT) = 90% reduction in serum DHT.

 

Regards,

[Einstein]

Can i just ask why do you say that?

 

don't we need some estrogen for muscle? it helps in muscle building through androgen receptor density, it increases igf-1 levels and enhances glucoe used by the muscle.

 

 

This goes back to what I was saying about synergic effects of drugs, e.g. FIN (60% reduction in serum DHT) + DUT (90% reduction in serum DHT) = 90% reduction in serum DHT.

 

Yeh, that's a perfect example.

[Julius]

Wait a minute I thought that research has show that taking two Propecia daily is more effective than taking one. So logically as Propecia blocks one enzyme that causes the breakdown of testosterone into DHT and Avodart blocks that one plus one other, it would be similar to taking two Propecia, but I would also have that extra enzyme covered. Further keeping on Propecia is also a smart move because Avodart has not been approved yet. My real worry is side effects from Avo.

[Blond]

Originally posted by Einstein:

don't we need some estrogen for muscle? it helps in muscle building through androgen receptor density, it increases igf-1 levels and enhances glucoe used by the muscle.

 

That's interesting, I didn't know that. The reason why I ask is because I thought you could apply the same logic to levels of DHT (i.e. you need a small amount).

 

I have just been looking at bodybuilding websites and the information, although probably very good, is somewhat misleading.

 

For example this is a copy and paste of a paragraph on a bodybuilding webpage:

 

'I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What's going on here? We know it couldn't be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver"

 

 

Wait a minute I thought that research has show that taking two Propecia daily is more effective than taking one.

 

Hi Julius, I have seen no such significant evidence for that. There are some who believe that increasing levels of finasteride only inhibits slightly more DHT production as it can inhibit type I 5AR at high levels.

 

 

So logically as Propecia blocks one enzyme that causes the breakdown of testosterone into DHT and Avodart blocks that one plus one other, it would be similar to taking two Propecia, but I would also have that extra enzyme covered.

 

This isn't logic. It really does not work like that. Please read through the earlier posts.

 

All the best,

[Einstein]

Blondie, that quote is indeed very misleading. I'm surprised that guy didn't get flamed because they're quick to flame on those forums if something misleading is posted. Stacking the two together? I don't even think the term "stack" is appropriate there. It's not a stack because the you're using the two for a specific goal.

 

I'm an active member on one of those BB forums and I do know that estrogen is needed for muscle growth, especially when they're on "cycle". They'll supress estrogen levels but not too much by using an ai on cycle. But they'll never use the full dose. maybe half the recommended dose every other day.

[Blond]

You're definitely right there - but that paragraph was published by Reform mag not in a forum. It also states estrogen is good for muscle gain but so is DHT.! Both may act through IGF-1.

 

He is the article/webpage to read if interested - http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm

 

Getting back to the topic, I'm going to finish my input here. The only reason why I chimed in to start with is because I don't want you to harm yourself by messing with too many drugs (just to gain muscle mass). I know it's important to a lot of people but it's important also to think of the potential long term effects of such uses of hormone level manipulators. Your body will always try to equilibrate back to its predisposed genetic state and when you eventually stop the meds who knows what will happen.

 

Anyway, take care of yourself mate.