NW6. FUE+micropigmentation - possible?

[Fidelity]

Hi friends.

I'm norwood 6 (I'm almost 30), and I'm not considering getting a full cap of hair. What I want is making a tatooing later (micropigmentation), but prior to this I want to re-scatter the existing hair, so it forms a uniform stubble mainly on top of the head. Bear in mind, as long as I'll make the tatooing anyway, I want the hair to be mostly where it isn't now on the head, sacrificing the sides and the back (using it as a donor area). One of the reasons is I want to get rid of the horseshoe transition, which is hard to get rid with tatooing, as it still may be noticeable (between the horseshoe and the tatooing). So re-scattering should get rid of this. Then I'd like to make the hairline mainly (or more than other areas) from real hairs, as it's the thing which will be very apparent to look at (at least the 1-st cm and then the center area of the head top).

 

I want to go with FUE, as getting scars is not an option, and it's the best way with my case I think. I understand it won't be cheap, and I did some research and though some clinics may provide a cheaper service, I don't want to take a risk.

 

I don't know what kind of density I can get using all the hair (beard, chest, sides and back), but I'd like to get a uniform top coverage on sides and top, so when you run it with hand it's apparent it's not a slick scalp.The sides and the back will get a tatooing too to cover the extracted hairs. I also have some back hair, it's similar to the chest hair (but I doubt it may be very helpful, but who knows).

 

 

1. As far as I understand, I need several sessions to make it complete, is it correct?

2. How many grafts can be extracted altogether? And with each session?

3. What realistic coverage I can get on top prior to tatooing?

4. How much each session will cost? How much for the total amount of work (approximately, from ant to)?

5. How much time it may take altogether, considering the breaks from each session (1, 2 years...)?

7. What good surgeons can be recommended for this, considering the quality is of prior importance rather than price (price range also)?

Thank you.

 

Ps: I'm not sure if it was clear, but I'm going for a shaved look or very very short.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Fidelity

[1978matt]

A picture of your hair grown out would help to establish what sort of donor you have.

 

Body hair is very much the last resort so I wouldn't bank on getting many grafts from it.

 

FUE may not be scar free and could be noticeable when shaved down.

[Jotronic]

You have a very ambitious plan ahead of you. I have to correct your assessment of your hairloss. You are a NW7, not a NW6.

 

1. As far as I understand, I need several sessions to make it complete, is it correct?

 

Yes, absolutely.

 

2. How many grafts can be extracted altogether? And with each session?

 

This is clinic specific. Some can move several hundred, some a couple of thousand.

 

3. What realistic coverage I can get on top prior to tatooing?

 

Coverage will be non-existent especially since you are looking for stubble. The proper way to reference this would be regarding density and it will be very low overall .

 

4. How much each session will cost? How much for the total amount of work (approximately, from ant to)?

 

This can vary widely but you are probably looking at 15K to 20K each procedure.

 

5. How much time it may take altogether, considering the breaks from each session (1, 2 years...)?

 

You can't over tax the scalp in cases like this but I'd say two years or so.

 

7. What good surgeons can be recommended for this, considering the quality is of prior importance rather than price (price range also)?

 

Not touching this one as it is up to you.

 

I think your plan, while very ambitious, may be too ambitious as to move all of your donor hair via FUE may cause an amount of scarring that may be unacceptable. In addition, SMP sometimes will not take to scar tissue the same way as it does to skin and it ultimately may not work. SMP clinics will usually perform a test patch to see how the ink takes as a small percentage of patients will experience a "bleed" of ink that will result in not so much of a small "dot" as much as a small "splotch". I highly urge you to proceed with extreme caution and look for examples of what it is you are hoping to achieve.

[Fidelity]

Ah, thanks really a lot! It's nice to see such supportive people.

 

A picture of your hair grown out would help to establish what sort of donor you have.

 

Body hair is very much the last resort so I wouldn't bank on getting many grafts from it.

 

FUE may not be scar free and could be noticeable when shaved down.

 

So what would you advise? The problem I can never accept it... I just can't and even when micropigmentation appeared it was something which saved me from years of depression, as it was some kind of an option (prior to it I felt very upset). I need to make something about it and cannot just leave it as it is.

I contacted one clinics, which said they use very slim needles, but later unfortunately I found many not happy customer reviews about them (though their results for one patient seemed very good). The price was like 6000$ for one go, which is too low for 4k grafts amount... if I remember correctly. Of was it 2k grafts. I then contacted Dr R, but his consultant said he will call me back, but after I sent my idea he never replied back (yet).

 

Do you think going with just micropigmentation would be a better option? I'm not sure, as the stubble on sides will be too apparent. I'm not sure what I can do about it.

 

Do you have any examples of FUE scars? If they are mild, who knows, maybe it's not that big problem? Or maybe it is... I didn't research on this.

 

I will have to grow my hair, but it was thick (when I had it). I have only some beard hair now to show, but it's similar in structure - curly and more or less thick.

 

 

 

 

Coverage will be non-existent especially since you are looking for stubble. The proper way to reference this would be regarding density and it will be very low overall .

 

So you think it will not create any stubble effect when touched or at glancing angles?

4. How much each session will cost? How much for the total amount of work (approximately, from ant to)?

 

This can vary widely but you are probably looking at 15K to 20K each procedure.

 

5. How much time it may take altogether, considering the breaks from each session (1, 2 years...)?

 

You can't over tax the scalp in cases like this but I'd say two years or so.

This is what I expected but I see you guys are concerned if it makes sense at all. But I have only two options - to try micropigmentation or trying FUE first to improve the result. What are your thoughts on two? Just go with SMP? I just can't accept looking like this (like now - looking just bald).

 

 

I think your plan, while very ambitious, may be too ambitious as to move all of your donor hair via FUE may cause an amount of scarring that may be unacceptable. In addition, SMP sometimes will not take to scar tissue the same way as it does to skin and it ultimately may not work. SMP clinics will usually perform a test patch to see how the ink takes as a small percentage of patients will experience a "bleed" of ink that will result in not so much of a small "dot" as much as a small "splotch". I highly urge you to proceed with extreme caution and look for examples of what it is you are hoping to achieve.

 

Maybe not all, but half on sides. Ok, I see your point, scar may cause problems later with SMP. Frankly then I'd go with SMP... I don't know what other options I have. I just thought I'd place hairs let's say 5-10 on 1 cm, but I guess it's unrealistic? Or maybe I could just epilate the rest of hair and make the overall tatooing. I hate shaving those hairs, as they as useless anyway. I just thought they could be of some use.

 

And what if I'd make the hairline with real hair, extracted from the horseshoe area? I mean going from this direction. But I'm not sure any longer... hoping to hear from you guys. I mean it wouldn't be a mix of two not to deal with scarring issues (or extracted areas of the same concern?). But the hairline, then SMP, like it goes on the horseshoe area.

 

Or epilate all.. or might it cause scarring too?

Edited February 24, 2013 by Fidelity

[1978matt]

I reckon you should contact Stephen who works for Dr Bisanga.

 

I will message you a link.

[Fidelity]

I reckon you should contact Stephen who works for Dr Bisanga.

 

I will message you a link.

 

Thanks Matt. I will contact him. Hopefully he replies. What do you think about my other concerns as well?

 

Definitely the guy had more hair initially, but I'm curious what can be done.

[michaeljames]

Hi friends.

I'm norwood 6 (I'm almost 30), and I'm not considering getting a full cap of hair. What I want is making a tatooing later (micropigmentation), but prior to this I want to re-scatter the existing hair, so it forms a uniform stubble mainly on top of the head. Bear in mind, as long as I'll make the tatooing anyway, I want the hair to be mostly where it isn't now on the head, sacrificing the sides and the back (using it as a donor area). One of the reasons is I want to get rid of the horseshoe transition, which is hard to get rid with tatooing, as it still may be noticeable (between the horseshoe and the tatooing). So re-scattering should get rid of this. Then I'd like to make the hairline mainly (or more than other areas) from real hairs, as it's the thing which will be very apparent to look at (at least the 1-st cm and then the center area of the head top).

 

I want to go with FUE, as getting scars is not an option, and it's the best way with my case I think. I understand it won't be cheap, and I did some research and though some clinics may provide a cheaper service, I don't want to take a risk.

 

I don't know what kind of density I can get using all the hair (beard, chest, sides and back), but I'd like to get a uniform top coverage on sides and top, so when you run it with hand it's apparent it's not a slick scalp.The sides and the back will get a tatooing too to cover the extracted hairs. I also have some back hair, it's similar to the chest hair (but I doubt it may be very helpful, but who knows).

 

 

1. As far as I understand, I need several sessions to make it complete, is it correct?

2. How many grafts can be extracted altogether? And with each session?

3. What realistic coverage I can get on top prior to tatooing?

4. How much each session will cost? How much for the total amount of work (approximately, from ant to)?

5. How much time it may take altogether, considering the breaks from each session (1, 2 years...)?

7. What good surgeons can be recommended for this, considering the quality is of prior importance rather than price (price range also)?

Thank you.

 

Ps: I'm not sure if it was clear, but I'm going for a shaved look or very very short.

 

Hi FIdelity,

 

Let's take your questions in order: 1) Yes. FUE is more demanding on the medical team and patient. The individual extraction of the FUs is the primary reason for this. The doctor I work with is the chairman of the ISHRS FUE committee researching and studying the best practices for FUE procedure. 2) At US Hair Restoration where he is medical director he tries to keep the FUE sessions about 500 grafts for optimum results.3) Not being a surgeon but familiar it looks like you would need about 3000 FUs to create the stubble shade you are looking for this may be possible if your body hair is suitable to aid in donor hair supply. 4) The cost of FUE is usually 6 to 8 dollars per graft. This can better be determined with the doctor you choose. It is better get firm costs with those you consult with. 5) Your time estimate seems realistic but again that will be effected by the number of grafts per session. 6) There was no ? here. 7) There are many good surgeons recommended on HTN. Of course I can highly recommend you get a consult (online are free) from Dr. Parsa Mohebi who I mentioned earlier. All the Best, Michael

[Fidelity]

Hi FIdelity,

 

Let's take your questions in order: 1) Yes. FUE is more demanding on the medical team and patient. The individual extraction of the FUs is the primary reason for this. The doctor I work with is the chairman of the ISHRS FUE committee researching and studying the best practices for FUE procedure. 2) At US Hair Restoration where he is medical director he tries to keep the FUE sessions about 500 grafts for optimum results.3) Not being a surgeon but familiar it looks like you would need about 3000 FUs to create the stubble shade you are looking for this may be possible if your body hair is suitable to aid in donor hair supply. 4) The cost of FUE is usually 6 to 8 dollars per graft. This can better be determined with the doctor you choose. It is better get firm costs with those you consult with. 5) Your time estimate seems realistic but again that will be effected by the number of grafts per session. 6) There was no ? here. 7) There are many good surgeons recommended on HTN. Of course I can highly recommend you get a consult (online are free) from Dr. Parsa Mohebi who I mentioned earlier. All the Best, Michael

 

Hello and thank you for the reply. May I ask why only 500 grafts per session? If we cover the big area like I have, is it possible to make more hair or it might cause undesirable effects? If so, what kinds of?

Also why it takes several years to make the whole procedure? I'm really not familliar with this. I guess it's not about the money? As I could pay for the whole thing in one go, but I guess it's unrealistic to get good results with it?

I will research on the doctor results, and will see if what he does suits me. Thank you for the suggestion!

[sl]

Hi Fidelity

 

Concern is that your surface area to cover is very large compared to the donor safe zone.

 

You are as said a NW7 and therefore could easily have 300cm2 plus area to have to work on. Your donor safe zone also is limited as the crown has dropped very deep and also the nape hair, at least from the shaved look appears to be raising up. It is certainly much lighter than the hair above it, so may be a non-harvestable area for us as a clinic. Be good as said to see grown out for a better assessment and to see how it looks.

 

Your safe zone from which we could take from is therefore much much smaller than the target area and as FUE takes from density we would be limited in what we could take in order not to thin out the donor too much. Clinics different on this with regard to protocol and ranging from 30 to 40 percent.

 

Starting density is therefore a key issue as in essence we take from this and looking at your goals it would be really wise to get your donor measured in several areas, occipital area would give the denser readings and supra auricular (above ear area) would give the less dense readings and good to measure at least 2 or 3 areas in order to get an average and not just target one area, since the FUE extractions would be spread and not concentrated.

 

Once you have this done then you would have some empirical data from which to see if your goals could be met.

 

Body hair is an extension for sure but usually the groupings are lower in terms of hairs per graft, so again many more could be needed to gain the same effect as scalp hair. If you are on a DHT blocker then it can weaken body hair, chest, leg, etc, although beard usually fairs well.

 

So, many things to think about and since you have specific goals then really worth having some consultations before committing to surgery and see what is possible. I have kept this brief but just an introduction to some of the things we would discuss and hopefully helpful for you.

 

As said you are looking at a considerable investment in terms of time and money so really worth getting it right and having some real data to go on before embarking on anything.

[Fidelity]

Hello Stephen! Thank you for the assistance.

1. I will grow the hair out. For what length should it be to estimate it? Then I will post photos. And how can I measure the density?

 

1. I see the main concern I can't realistically get even the light stubble for this area, is it correct? But we will see when the hair is grown out a bit.

 

2. WIll FUE create scarring, which may create problems for micropigmentation? Can it be worked only at the hairline area?

 

I at least want to reduce the density in the horseshoe transition, it's where the hair is the most thick, so I wanted to reduce there at least, so the transition could be less noticeable. But I'm starting to wonder about possible scarring, which might create problems with micropigmentation. I'm not sure which way to go yet. Maybe even depilating? Not sure. But it might create scarring too?

 

I don't take any hair medications, so I don't know about body hair, but I see it's not a good supply as you said.

[sl]

Hi Fidelity,

 

I've seen patients measure their own density by cutting a square cm2 out of a piece of cardboard and applying to parts of the donor and then photographing, zooming in and counting. Ideally see some doctors as also miniaturisation, possible future loss and some specific measurements can be made, so it is more than just density readings really.

 

Grow your hair for a minimally week and then upload and see if it gives a clearer indication of your donor, but really in any event worth having proper consultations.

 

FUE scarring will depend on several factors and size and type of punches used I think would be agreed as some of the variables. Also different parts of the scalp heal differently and indeed so do patients.

 

I know SMP is used for linear scars, this is not my speciality so maybe others can answer about results into FUE scars and show come cases and more a question for the clinics that perform this type of work.

 

Body hair I never said is not a good source as such, I am just being realistic that you may need proportionally a lot more of it due to the lower hair per graft units being more prevalent.

 

I repeat with your loss and goals then really worth getting some personal consultations and seeing what options you have.

[Fidelity]

Thank you again!

I will measure it and will post the results. I'm not sure how I can consult with good docs on-site, as I'm not located in the UK, so I need a visa for this, and UK is very strict as far as I know (that's why I first considered it being made in Canada). Maybe online, we''ll see. I tried contacting with one top doc, he didn't respond, so I'll try others as well.

[Fidelity]

Hi there!

I have grown my hair a bit longer. I didn't realize how advanced I became over the years, as I shaved it regularly and didn't pay attention. I think I'm way too advanced for HT. What do you think? I thought I\d at least create a hairline using donor hair, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea either... as the stubble should be everywhere or nowhere I guess.

As I understand, I won't be able to create the stubble effect even using all beard hair? I'm still not sure if I'd better leave this hair for a HT or just remove it permanently before SMP. Perhaps I will remove it, as I don't enjoy shaving my head. I don't hold my breath for multplication (I think I'm realistic about it).

[fitnessjunkie]

Fidelity

 

A HT doesn't look like a good idea IMO based on your hairloss.

 

However, you look like a perfect candidate for temporary SMP. There aren't many examples on this website, but I can send you a private message on here with a link to see what sort of results you might be able to achieve.

 

Cheers

[Fidelity]

Fidelity

 

A HT doesn't look like a good idea IMO based on your hairloss.

 

However, you look like a perfect candidate for temporary SMP. There aren't many examples on this website, but I can send you a private message on here with a link to see what sort of results you might be able to achieve.

 

Cheers

Thank you for reply! Why do you think about a temporary SMP? HIS does a permanent one (or for a very long time). I hate the idea of touching it up for every year or two. Or you think those hairs are worth of saving (I want to remove them)? I doubt it. I'm not sure, but really... if I can't make a decent HT for 100k with those donor hair, how much would multiplication cost? 1 million? And I would be not that young by that time.

[sl]

Thanks for the update Fidelity.

 

You do have a very limited safe zone to take from with FUE and as said a lot to cover.

 

Growing the hair out a little does show more and based upon the pictorial evidence then it unless you are going to go for a lot of body hair as well then you will not get the coverage you need from scalp alone.

 

Creating just a hair line in itself may not look natural, you look natural now, so I would certainly think twice before doing that or anything.

[Fidelity]

Thank you SL and others! I'm glad I posted here so now I have a real outlook at situation, which saved me from possible troubles.

SL, I sent you a PM, could you please check it?