Propecia/Fin - 3 months in and side-effects

[j1j9j85]

You're making it as simple as just lowering estrogen.. It's really not that simple.. Ppl who take armitrex, which nearly suppresses estrogen if u take enough of it still have no improvement.. Its more of a thyroid/adrenal issue... U can have levels of 4000 in T and still have no sexual function without it getting released... With a myself included my T is good and E is ok and Im still having side effects, because my T is getting bottle necked somewhere..... I honestly don't believe that you magically cured two people from this stuff. You havent dealt with these problems yourself, so I really dont know where your coming from on this whole subject..

 

1 month is not any reason to panic.. its 1 month.. jeez.. You dont need just basic tests to figure this out.. its a complex issue.. Otherwise there wouldnt be anyone out there with these problems...

 

 

The author came on asking for help i simply stated getting bloods done..... i fail to see how that can be viewed as panicking... he then enquired in to the effects of fin to which i replied how it effects the hormones and i was correct....

 

your either dillusional or bitter as you are one of the unlucky ones but that doesnt give you the right to claim that the correct thing for other men to do is nothing!!! and wait for things to magicaly get better on there own as you more than any one should realise by now that,that doesnt always happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in my mind the sooner bloods are done to see whats going on the better waiting for 3 months to see if you cure your self is bad advise to give....

 

bloods done when you first get off fin will allow the patient to have a base result to map improvement to see if the body is reacting natural to improve any inbalances and also to see if any therapy medications are working! you must be in denile or you dont understand protocol

 

i was a member of propeciahelp when i had sides 3 years ago and all can say is i have never been on a forum since where it was so negative its full of men saying they are incurable...... im not saying this doesnt happen that some poor men get permanent sides for life im sure it does. As with all drugs there are risks but have you ever thought you may be naturaly impotent this does happen you know not every one can say that finest did this 100% as you may have had a genetic predispostion to impotency either hormonal,physical or mental............. i think you need to go over my posts and read very carefully!!!!! and may be look up some of the hormone relationships and how they interact!!!

 

i understand what you are saying crystal clear but you are not following me at all im afraid or you are just unwilling to understand... or you cant evaluate the information in a reasonable mannor!

 

just because you are suffering from a more advanced and complex finest side doesnt mean that it effects every one in the same way as men react different and have different hormonal ratios naturaly even before finest was in the picture!!! im not saying what you state isnt true if you read carefully my previouse posts i agree with your comments!!!

 

but and this is a big but the correct place to start is to correct the oestrogen and testosterone levels and hpta before anything else is tried...... if you cant see this then im afraid you are an idiot and i can no longer waste my time talking to you as you are obviously unrational. having out of balance hpta would contaminate other diagnostic tests there for it needs to be corrected first in order to notice lagitimate improvements over all

 

and yes me and a friend who has directly spoken/interviewed dr shippen on behalf of forum members on many occasions and who himself is very very clued up on this subject managed to help 2 forum members on another forum only a few months ago inregards to finest sides who actualy came on complaining about the negative attitudes on propecia help..... of which they where even member im still a member but never go on any more as im sick of the attitude over there. plus i helped my self an now im ok so there is no point! i guess i was just lucky i came off after a year and was able to get things in order and miss any chances of perm damage

 

and we instructed him how to improve his HPTA using clomid to boost LH and FSH and and some dhea also arimidex before to lower oestrogen amoungst others, he was a user for over 12 months and by implementing a few changes and a course similar to post cycle therapy after steroid use...... hes doing loads better!!!!!!! if you dont beleive me then fine i dont really care you mean nothing to me.

 

so when you say i magicaly cured... then im afraid your putting words in my mouth the process was long and expensive with multiple blood results and different drugs.. but his HPTA was corrected and hes doing much better by his own admission with the help of dr shippen protocols and my firends input along with my suggestions a pathway was established and he followed it and improved i can say more than that!!!!!!

 

how ever for men directly coming of finest you will typically see the same things in the bloods over and over again which are not natural and i beleive the correct place to start is in these areas and then if sides still persit then explore further its common sense!!!!!!!!!

 

and what gives you the qualifications to state that i havent experianced this my self!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

just so you know i started taking finest 3 years ago at which time i experianced decreased libido,ejaculate and decreased sexual arrousal and water retention puffyness and brain fog this persisted for 4 months after i stopped use even!!!!! (i also know now that if i knew then wot i know i could have improved my position in side of 2 months)

 

i the started taking propecia again but this time i had bloods taken before as a control and periodically every 6 months i also take adex at .5mg each other day for 2 to 3 weeks when the blood results indicate and i have not had any sides during my finest cycles....... since by correctly managing oestrogen and the other hormones being effected and out of line i have maintained my sexual functions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

do you even know why oestrogen goes unchecked on finest? or are you one of these copy and pasters just passing on info that you dont really understand!!!

because by some of the things you have said its abviouse to me that you are not 100% aware how the hpta works????

 

and to say im a liar when i actualy have alot of experinace with these issuse directly form my work and from a personal intrest is insulting!!!!!!!!!!

 

do you know what hpta stands for???:confused: google it and read up on how the hormones react to dht and other androgens and the receptors relationships with oestrogen including oestrogen sides and why they occur! also look in to how oetrogen effect the heart and brain/mood and hormones other than test!!!! shbg is also another intresting subject for you!!!!!

 

you keep telling me that men with very very high test and low oestrogen still get sides so what!!!!!!!! that point proves nothing the HPTA is more complex than just test and oestrogen... and includes thyroid function hormones etc etc

 

you could have the highest level or test known to man and still get ed if you free test is low enough!!!!!!!????? free test is what counts

 

we have to agree to disagree but im sure any right minded individual will realise that oestrogen is very suppressive to the point it can have a heavy impact on the whole of the hormonal systems to the point it can shut them down all together if exposed to it long enough!!! when any person comes of finest this is the best area to correct!

 

 

oh and in some cases lowering oestrogen is all that is required for the body to succesfully recover as the bulk of finest sides in many short term users ie up to 2 years are mostly associated to it!!!

 

but for a small tiny minority its more than that...... that goes with out saying!!!

Edited November 6, 2010 by j1j9j85

[brentipold]

It's been a month, not a year. point made. goodbye.

[illuminated]

Okay guys, an update.

 

Basically, whilst taking a shower, my body hair (from the genital area upwards) is coming away from my body much more easily. For example, if I just scrub myself or even pull at the hair a bit, it comes away. This is *exactly* what was happening when I tried massaging oil in to my hair - the hair was just coming away with my hand.

 

Could this be some hormonal changes as a result of stopping the Proscar?

[Treebranch]

I was on propecia for about 8 months. Watery semen, fine, memory issues(maayyyyybe not even related to it), libido decrease... fine. I read that this is normal and people deal with it a lot, or at least it's the most common side effect. Then i started to get fatter, with no change in diet. Then, my semen, being so watery, would cause pain ejaculating because of the dispersed "globs" of semen that werent as watery as the rest. It's been almost 2 months since I quit and my libido is back, semen is normal(doesn't hurt either), and I'm never taking this pill again.

 

I also never, ever noticed a decrease in shedding, I only noticed the increase which apparently means it's working, but if i didn't give the hair a chance to grow back or whatever I really don't care at this point. I'd rather be bald than have a broken dick and have it hurt when I have sex.

 

My two cents.

[illuminated]

I have also, today, noticed acne/spots on my back and chest which were never there before. A couple of months ago I started getting a few spot on my face too - I never got them even as a teen.

[brentipold]

Okay guys, an update.

 

Basically, whilst taking a shower, my body hair (from the genital area upwards) is coming away from my body much more easily. For example, if I just scrub myself or even pull at the hair a bit, it comes away. This is *exactly* what was happening when I tried massaging oil in to my hair - the hair was just coming away with my hand.

 

Could this be some hormonal changes as a result of stopping the Proscar?

 

That is not a good thing. Can I ask your age, and how long has it been since you quit taking the drug?

[illuminated]

Turned 30 in July and stopped taking it around 16 September 2010 (been 2 months).

[brentipold]

Have you had any kind of e.d trouble before taking fin? How is your diet? are you out of shape/overweight? Just trying to get a better picture here..

 

 

 

If you're in good health then you could be dealing wit post fin syndrome. Problem also is that you're in the UK, doctors there are pretty clueless.. youre going to have to go see a doctor though and try to convince him... That long list of blood tests are what you need to get a better picture of whats going on with you....

 

 

A theory that I and someone else are trying out is taking OXbile. Its a digestive supplement that helps get bile out of your liver. We suspect this to be the cause of these side effects bc tile in your liver can cause a whole lot of other problems such as all the propecia side effects..for some odd reason we think propecia has done some damage to our livers... If i were you id give it a try... It can only help with your digestion anyways..

 

You did mention you prostate being an issue, that is one thing you need to address first though. Once you take care of that and if the side effects remain then id go through further testing. Watery semen can be a side effects of a prostate problem.

[illuminated]

Never had any ED before. Don't get me wrong, I was no Peter North but equally, just perfectly fine. Then wham - weeks after stopping the Proscar, my hair is just coming out in my hands whilst just trying to massage some oil into my scalp gently.

 

I am in quite good shape, exercise at least twice a week - weights and cardio.

 

I have no prostate problems as far as I am aware, the watery semen was being caused by Proscar, it is slowly returning to normal (ish!) now.

 

I have made an appointment with my family doctor but I am not hopeful. I know they can't possible do ALL the tests but can you tell me the essential few I should get done? (if I can get any done!).

[Treebranch]

post finastride syndrome is so incredibly scary to read about, it's like a crazy catchall. "oh you will be fine for a while after taking the drug BUT THEN!!! THE END OF THE WORLD HAPPENS"

 

I Really do not like reading about it and hope it's not happening/does not happen to me.

[Danielkiwi]

hi illuminated

 

I am sorry to hear what you are going through and can emphatise with you as i have gone through the same. i would recommend before going to other doctors and doing all these tests, please try and speak to the doctor who prescribed you propecia in the first place. hopefully your HT clinic (H&W i think) should be able to help you out..they have prob heard this before..

 

Secondly, i know you are pretty stressed out as you have already had the surgery and really would want your propecia to work...but it is what it is..i would forget about it for now and hit the gym big time...more than half your problems will be solved by exercising. i am telling you this by experience..also, if you come across an intimate moment and are not able to get it up, pop in half a cialis. you will be absolutely amazed as to what it can do to your confidence..All the best

[illuminated]

Hi Danielkiwi,

 

My ED is getting better but what is causing me most stress is the rapid hair loss 6 weeks since stopping Finasteride.

 

I have contacted H&W and Doug told me not to worry, I have since e-mailed him again regarding the loss of body hair but still awaiting to hear back yet.

[speedway121]

brentipold Im with you!

Guys- I work at a MAJOR pharm company, and I can tell you that this Propecia side effect listing ("1-2% experience ED, etc.") Is BS.

If I could tell you the number of patients that come into our company with lawsuits showing their damage and we paying them off, you would be amazed. Further that stats are influenced by those who have the most to gain. Enough said about that.

 

Now my personal story:

 

I took propecia for 1 month in 2008. I started experiencing mood swings, didnt care about much, could not get a boner for the life of me (by the way, I previously masturbated 3x a day). I tried having sex, wasnt interested. I had a slight case of gynocomastia, which got worst. WAY WORST. I had to have surgery to correct it.

 

OK so I got off of it after 2 months. AND WILL NEVER TOUCH THE STUFF AGAIN. It took so long for my mind to get back to its normal state, I tried so many blood cleansing techniques, worked out 5x a week.

 

It is so sad propecia is supposedly the only thing that really works. Rogaine, Saw Palmetto, etc. all barely work... I am on Nioxin and Rogaine now... but still shedding.

:-( no hope.

[speedway121]

anybody have any experience with HT without any propecia..?

[darren smith]

hi guys u lot seemed very clued up on this subject so i have some questions, i have been so scared about propecia due to the obvious, im 25 thinning all over and i need to do something asap, i need some advice on this drug or a less powerful one with the same results, im also worrrying about gyno o0n the chest area as i train nmearly everyday mainly weights buit i have some exstra fat around chest as it is so i dont wanna add to this could u guys please please give me some feed back on this as i need to start something asap thanks

[brentipold]

Well, if you're worried about the side effects, then take a low dosage of the drug. Try .50mg of a pill and see if you have no side effects from it... If you do, wait till they disapear and you go back to normal.. Then try .25mg. if that doesnt work then you cant take the drug and youre out of luck. More then likely you probably wont have any side effects anyways.

[darren smith]

thanks for reply brentipold how have u been gettin on with it and how are u results from it, im uk based dose anyone know good source to purchae from

[illuminated]

I thought it had a flat response? As in, no matter what dose you take, it will block DHT?

[brentipold]

Interesting.. I guess that could mean your T production is high....

[SupaG]

I tried Propecia for several weeks, had noticeable sexual side effects and promptly stopped taking it and threw my pills away. I would rather be bald than have a penis that doesn't work.

 

The amount of people suffering sexual side effects from this drug is much much greater than is officially reported. Many guys are claiming that their problems didn't go away after stopping the pill, so that really scared me but I did return to normal (at least I think I did).

 

Many people with problems are dismissed as either imagining it ("it's all in your head!") or as having some other cause. After the first week of taking it I didn't notice anything different and thought I would be OK and didn't worry about it at all. However after the next week it was noticeably different and after week three it was obvious what was going on.

[brentipold]

Yea I love the "its all in your head" answer, it cracks me up... Before this drug fucked me up, I dont care how worried or scared I'd get, it still wouldnt stop me dick from functioning.

[floridascientist]

As a chemist with a background in medicine and biochemistry, I might be able to help clear up a couple of things that were brought up.

 

Dose-response curve: Here's a great link that shows several dose-response curves for DHT (serum and scalp), and leads me to some conclusions.

No Title

 

Yes, the dose response curve (serum DHT) is flat for dosages above 0.2 mg. Why this drug comes in a dose of 1 mg, when 1/5 of that gives the same response for serum DHT levels is a question that the FDA should have asked Merck. According to these curves, 0.2 mg should be the MOST that is prescribed.

 

Furthermore, I would think a more detailed analysis of smaller increments between 0.05 and 0.2 should be examined, as there appears to be a difference between the "scalp" and the "serum" DHT response curves. It looks like somewhere between 0.05 and 0.2, there is an optimal dosage where serum DHT inhibition is actually LESS than scalp DHT inhibition. It would stand to reason that if you could lower the serum DHT inhibition, while still getting a decent amount of scalp DHT inhibition, you could minimize potential side-effects on the endocrine system. Just a theory, but from these graphs, it begs the question.

 

But dose-response isn't the entire story. And half-life isn't either. I've read a lot of posts that say (incorrectly) that because the half-life is only 8-9 hours that you should be back to normal within a few days. What those people aren't realizing is that the interactions between the drug and the 5AR enzyme are more complicated than that. The enzyme-inhibitor complex is actually a 2-stage process and can stay bound for up to 7 days after 1 single dose! Check out this graph:

Plasma DHT levels 7 days after various Finasteride dosages • PROPECIAHELP: Unresolved Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

That being the case, not only is the 1 mg dose way too much, the frequency of taking it once a day is ALSO way too much. I would think dosing every 5 days would be more reasonable.

 

So the end result is that at 1 mg, you're taking way too much, super-saturating all enzyme binding sites. And since the doses are so frequent, the enzyme complex never gets a chance to be unbound from the inhibitor.

 

Obviously the pathogenesis of MPB is more complex than just looking at serum and scalp DHT levels, but these questions should still be addressed.

 

This brings me to my next point. Given how complex and inter-connected the endocrine system is in general, and the fact that 5AR is involved in several inter-related enzyme pathways, it's not surprising that some people are having far-reaching and long-term side-effects. When you down-regulate an enzyme pathway for a prolonged period of time, there will be changes in gene expression. Some people will be more affected than others, depending on their specific genetic makeup.

 

I don't know if Merck was just in a rush to get this to market, but it seems that there were way too many questions left unanswered to just start blindly prescribing 1 mg doses daily.

 

Sooooo.....From what I've seen of these graphs, the best dose for minimizing potential nasty side-effects, while still getting a good amount of benefit would be just 0.05 mg every 5 days.

 

Cutting up a 1 mg pill into 20 pieces is not feasible. However, from what I've read finasteride is fairly soluble in ethanol. An enterprising person might consider dissolving 1 tablet in a small amount of ethanol and then titrating that out in 1/20 increments with something as simple as an eye-dropper. I'm not sure how uniform the distribution of the finasteride molecules would be in the ethanol solution, but it's an idea.

 

If anyone else as any other ideas for splitting it up into 20 doses, please post them.

 

I hope this helps, and I welcome any feedback, as I obviously still don't understand the entire picture. And of course I'm not an expert or a health-care practitioner so don't take my ideas as law.

[brentipold]

As a chemist with a background in medicine and biochemistry, I might be able to help clear up a couple of things that were brought up.

 

Dose-response curve: Here's a great link that shows several dose-response curves for DHT (serum and scalp), and leads me to some conclusions.

No Title

 

Yes, the dose response curve (serum DHT) is flat for dosages above 0.2 mg. Why this drug comes in a dose of 1 mg, when 1/5 of that gives the same response for serum DHT levels is a question that the FDA should have asked Merck. According to these curves, 0.2 mg should be the MOST that is prescribed.

 

Furthermore, I would think a more detailed analysis of smaller increments between 0.05 and 0.2 should be examined, as there appears to be a difference between the "scalp" and the "serum" DHT response curves. It looks like somewhere between 0.05 and 0.2, there is an optimal dosage where serum DHT inhibition is actually LESS than scalp DHT inhibition. It would stand to reason that if you could lower the serum DHT inhibition, while still getting a decent amount of scalp DHT inhibition, you could minimize potential side-effects on the endocrine system. Just a theory, but from these graphs, it begs the question.

 

But dose-response isn't the entire story. And half-life isn't either. I've read a lot of posts that say (incorrectly) that because the half-life is only 8-9 hours that you should be back to normal within a few days. What those people aren't realizing is that the interactions between the drug and the 5AR enzyme are more complicated than that. The enzyme-inhibitor complex is actually a 2-stage process and can stay bound for up to 7 days after 1 single dose! Check out this graph:

Plasma DHT levels 7 days after various Finasteride dosages • PROPECIAHELP: Unresolved Finasteride Propecia Proscar side effects info & discussion forum

That being the case, not only is the 1 mg dose way too much, the frequency of taking it once a day is ALSO way too much. I would think dosing every 5 days would be more reasonable.

 

So the end result is that at 1 mg, you're taking way too much, super-saturating all enzyme binding sites. And since the doses are so frequent, the enzyme complex never gets a chance to be unbound from the inhibitor.

 

Obviously the pathogenesis of MPB is more complex than just looking at serum and scalp DHT levels, but these questions should still be addressed.

 

This brings me to my next point. Given how complex and inter-connected the endocrine system is in general, and the fact that 5AR is involved in several inter-related enzyme pathways, it's not surprising that some people are having far-reaching and long-term side-effects. When you down-regulate an enzyme pathway for a prolonged period of time, there will be changes in gene expression. Some people will be more affected than others, depending on their specific genetic makeup.

 

I don't know if Merck was just in a rush to get this to market, but it seems that there were way too many questions left unanswered to just start blindly prescribing 1 mg doses daily.

 

Sooooo.....From what I've seen of these graphs, the best dose for minimizing potential nasty side-effects, while still getting a good amount of benefit would be just 0.05 mg every 5 days.

 

Cutting up a 1 mg pill into 20 pieces is not feasible. However, from what I've read finasteride is fairly soluble in ethanol. An enterprising person might consider dissolving 1 tablet in a small amount of ethanol and then titrating that out in 1/20 increments with something as simple as an eye-dropper. I'm not sure how uniform the distribution of the finasteride molecules would be in the ethanol solution, but it's an idea.

 

If anyone else as any other ideas for splitting it up into 20 doses, please post them.

 

I hope this helps, and I welcome any feedback, as I obviously still don't understand the entire picture. And of course I'm not an expert or a health-care practitioner so don't take my ideas as law.

 

 

I would agree.. It is too much. I cant remember if I said this on this thread or not, but when i was taking .25 mg I had no side effects..

[darren smith]

I would agree.. It is too much. I cant remember if I said this on this thread or not, but when i was taking .25 mg I had no side effects..

 

 

hi guys this info is great for ne as u no i have never done the drug brfore and im due for just a moths supply tomorrow 1mg tabs so my qusetion is what dose do i start with i was gonna cut them anyway but once cut how long can they stay out or will 1 tab a week be a good start as stated above, its easier but all in all ni want to be safe and of course gain the results...........what do u think guys

[brentipold]

if youre young and just starting to bald, i'd say cut the pills into 1/4 and take one everyday.. If you see improvement after 3-4 months then u know its working. Or just take 1mg, odds are u probably wont have side effects, and if u do then quit taking the drug till you go back to normal... then try .25mg..