Heading from NW3/4 to NW6/7 post age 40 -- is it common or rare ?

[EpilepticSceptic]

I'm talking about pattern balders (NOT diffuse thinners) who are still a solid NW3/4v post age 40. Where they still have hair in the remaining balding zone that would constitute a NW6/7 it is normal (or near normal) non-MPB density hair.

 

Are the odds better than 50% that these patients will never advance to NW6/7 in their lifetime ?

 

I ask this because for many years I have studied this pretty closely, and it seems to me that almost all the NW6/7 people that I have observed had definitely become that way by age 40. MANY progressed from NW3/4 to NW6/7 from age 30-40; though NONE that I have known had ever progressed from a solid NW3/4 to a NW6 beyond age 40. In other words, it was a done deal by age 40 in every single case I have personally observed -- both with or without finasteride.

 

I know there are exceptions like Mel Gibson, but I'm talking about the rule.

 

Are the odds in the favor of the post 40 NW3/4 patient ?

[Dr. Glenn Charles]

It is more common for patients to advance to a Norwood stage 6/7 if significant hair loss occurs in the patients 20's/30's. However, I have seen patients progress to more advanced stage of hair loss later in life. Take a good look at your family history and maybe it will give you some in sight.

[EpilepticSceptic]

Dr. Charles,

 

Thanks so much for the response.

 

The only NW6 folks in my family are on my father's side. He was one of 4 brothers. 2 of them never went past NW3/4 until their 60s when they passed on. He and 1 other brother were NW 6 by age 30, and then stayed that way and never made it to NW7.

 

On my mother's side things were much better. None of the men went past NW3, even in very old age. I definitely have some of her hair qualities too, and am currently between NW3/4v at age 41. Where I have hair on top it is healthy terminal hair and looks to be similar density to my donor area, no diffuse thinning at all. And for many years now I no longer notice hair fall in the tub or on my pillow. What is there seems like it would take many years to miniaturize if I would ever progress to NW6.

 

Does it mean anything that the only NW6 folks in my family were full blown NW6 by age 30 ? There's absolutely no history of anyone going to NW6 beyond age 40, that is why I am asking. It would seem (I hope) that genetics would remain consistent in this regard. In other words, if I was going to be a NW6 shouldn't I have already been there before age 30 since that's how the gene works in my family ?

 

BTW I've been on proscar since age 31. It never grew anything back, but i stayed on it anyway.

[hdude46]

no one can answer the questions you are asking. they dont have a crystal ball. all u can do is make an educated guess. everyone is different.

[azn_guy]

Is anyone in their 40's 50's that is a NW4 or NW5 and has not progressed/slowed down tremendously? (weird question, because mpb doesn't just stop)

 

The reason I asked this is because I don't see too many NW4/NW5 patients.

 

If you ARE a NW4/5 at age 40/50, when did you start your hairloss? 30's? late 20's?

 

I personally started mid 20's but it's been VERY slow, nothing like many of you here on the site, I am curious to know if my slow progression will continue forever, which would be great!

[hdude46]

again, everyone has different genetics. just b/c one person has one experience doesnt mean u will have the same. what will one person w/ totally different genetics tell u about yourself? gotta use a little common sense here. no one has a crystal ball and can tell u what will happen.

[azn_guy]

understood hdude, not asking about crystal balls though

 

I know my mpb will be different from everyone else, but it's nice to get a feeling what other folks experiences are.

 

maybe this is too general of a topic?

[EpilepticSceptic]

hdude46,

 

I understand what you are saying, but I also think that there has to be some degree of certainty when observing how family genetics progressed over time in your ancestors.

 

For example, my grandpa on my mom's side was a NW3 by age 25. He was still a solid NW3 in his late 60s when he died. All of his hairloss occured from age 18-25 I was told, and you can see it in the photos of him. Some here would say he didn't have MPB, but that is not true. it's just that his final MPB pattern was NW3.

 

I have a 50 year old brother who has the same exact pattern, and from age 20-25 is when all of his hairloss occured as well. He also has other features that look ALOT like our NW3 grandfather. And the same thing has been the case with me. I haven't lost hardly any more hair since age 25, and I only started taking proscar since age 31. Just like my grandpa and brother I have retained a mohawk in the frontal forelock that extends down to very near where my original hairline was.

 

My father, on the other hand, was a diffuse thinner and retained a broad NW1/2 outline of see-through thinning hair on the hairline until age 28. Everything else behind that was essentially gone. By age 30 he was a full blown NW6. Ironically, at age 25 his face was framed ALOT better than mine at age 25. Plus, his hair was curly, coarse, and jet black. Me and my brother's hair is reddish brown, finer in texture, and straighter like my mom's hair. there are also several other genetic features that me and my brother share with my mom, but that my dad absolutely did not have -- nose shape, eye color, duck tail in the rear of the head, etc..

 

I know there's no crystal ball, but there has to be some level of accuracy in observing HOW balding patterns progress over time. If the only NW6 people in your family had diffused balding and were full blown NW6 by age 30, then it stands to reason that if you did not follow that pattern and are still NW3/4 beyond age 40 that you will not likely ever end up a NW6. If there's no family history of this on either side then it seems logical that one in my shoes has hopefully escaped the worst.

[hdude46]

labrat, i definitely see what you are saying, and i think u answered your own question. i think u have to look at youw own family history as a guide and not look at anyone else's. the range of outcomes other people will tell u they experienced will be too disperse to tell with any certainty what will happen with u. u have your own genetic pattern.

 

with that said i hd a grandpa who was much the same way as yours, so maybe i'll be they same way as him.

 

if i were you, i wouldnt be too worried about progressing to much more. your family history and response to proscar are good indicators for this. of course im not a ht doc so i would consult with them, but no sense in going thru life (which statistically is half over for u) worried too much about this. even if u waited another 20 yrs and got a ht at 60 what would that accomplish? u would just worry if u would advance over the next 20 yrs.

 

most likely, your donor hair will stay strong well into your 60's and likely even 70's. u have already shown proscar works well for u and it will likely continue to work well for u. just my two cents..

[TC17]

My girlfriend's dad was probably a NW 4 when he was 24 years old, and he's only a NW 5 now at age 55. My girlfriend's paternal grandpa died a few years ago in his upper 70's, and he had the same NW 5 pattern that my girlfriend's dad has now. If I were to bet, I would say that her dad won't lose another hair. He too seems to have lost all of his hair between the ages of 20-40, because his hair is the exact same as it was when he was 40. Contrast that with my one uncle who was a NW 2 at age 30, NW 3v at age 40, and now a NW 6 at age 55. My dad, no blood relation to this particular uncle, was a NW 3v by 25, NW 4 by 35, NW 5 at 45, NW 6 at 50, and now at 58, he's a NW 6.5. He had MUCH better hair than my girlfriend's dad did at 25 and 30, but far less hair now than her dad. As for my dad, I have no idea whether he will continue to lose any more hair and go to full blown NW 7, but considering his hair loss has been progressive, I'd say it's certainly a possibility.

[hdude46]

tc17, u really spend a lot of time on here lol....i would say for all intents and purposes your dad is a nw7. never heard of a 6.5 before, does that half really make that much of a difference?

[TC17]

My dad's right side is like a NW 6, his left side is a bit lower than a NW 6, but certainly higher than a NW 7. His bald crown is higher than what you see in NW 7's also. I've measured his scalp using the method Dr. Paul Shapiro recommended, and my dad has about 220cm of bald area to cover. That's a little bit more than the average NW 6, but his head is huge, so it's all relative I suppose.

[EpilepticSceptic]

Hdude46,

 

Yeah, you're right that I worry too much about this stuff. Statistically my life is half over ? Yikes, never thought about that one much (lol)!

 

I think being on these forums is what has made me worry where I probably shouldn't so much in my case. I've seen so many warn against HTs and assume that just about everyone with MPB will eventually become a NW6/7. But from my observations in real life I just don't believe that is true. I do however believe that alot of people under 40 are taking a bigger risk than those over 40.

 

Actually, my rationale is that if I could just get 20 solid more years of having good hair out of HTs then i would be happy with that if everything suddenly fell apart afterwards. I know alot of docs would disagree with that, but most everybody I've ever known post age 60 have appearence way down on the list of life's priorities. So many things start going downhill beyond that age that hair issues would probably not be such a big deal.

[azn_guy]

You know what's worse is when you have a Dad and an older brother who have no signs of any balding.

 

Both my grandfathers died at a very young age so I personally have no family history to use.

 

BUT, I do have some uncles that are NW4/5 though but they are all in their late 50's and 60's now

(So I guess I can use them as family history)

 

Not sure how to take all of this into account with me!

[spin266]

for me ,i lost alll of my hair between 20 and 30,iwas a steady norwood 3 until 45 when i had my ht. so yes i did not progress any further than a norwood 3 and waited 15yrs to have a ht .cause i wanted to be sure the hair koss had leveled off. i hope that helps labrat

[EpilepticSceptic]

spin266,

 

Thanks man! I think we are in the same boat, although I am probably just barely a NW4. I would say about 80% of my total loss occured between 21-26. I was DEFINITELY a full blown NW3 by age 26! Since then I have certainly lost more, but it has been very slow and stable. I don't even really think the proscar has done much because I stopped it for 1 full year in 2004 and didn't notice any major changes at all. And it was the same with the 5% minox; when I stopped it after 4 years of use I was expecting ultimate doom, but there was hardly much of a cosmetic difference.

 

I have seen so many friends that were NW 1/2 at age 26 and are now NW5/6/7 at age 40+. It seems that 30-40 is an extremely aggressive time of hairloss for many. I've also noticed that in almost every case the full blown NW 6/7 crowd had a diffuse thinning pattern where you could clearly see the full outline of the pattern before it finally ended up as bare skin.

 

Like you I have waited this thing out. It was just my belief that by age 40 I'd likely be able to see my final balding pattern. I do have a bald spot on the horizontal part of the vertex; it's basically 2" X 2" and then there's a wall of very thick normal density hair all around it.

 

I haven't yet seen a NW6/7 that retained a decent portion of the frontal forelock beyond age 40 either. My forelock actually extends down to where my original hairline was; it's just that the temples receeded very far back, ala Jude Law. The NW 6/7 types I have observed usually seem to thin all over the entire MPB area, and then the hair finally succumbs and completely dies one day.

 

 

Originally posted by spin266:

for me ,i lost alll of my hair between 20 and 30,iwas a steady norwood 3 until 45 when i had my ht. so yes i did not progress any further than a norwood 3 and waited 15yrs to have a ht .cause i wanted to be sure the hair koss had leveled off. i hope that helps labrat

[dakota3]

Dr. Charles,

 

Thanks so much for the response.

 

The only NW6 folks in my family are on my father's side. He was one of 4 brothers. 2 of them never went past NW3/4 until their 60s when they passed on. He and 1 other brother were NW 6 by age 30, and then stayed that way and never made it to NW7.

 

On my mother's side things were much better. None of the men went past NW3, even in very old age. I definitely have some of her hair qualities too, and am currently between NW3/4v at age 41. Where I have hair on top it is healthy terminal hair and looks to be similar density to my donor area, no diffuse thinning at all. And for many years now I no longer notice hair fall in the tub or on my pillow. What is there seems like it would take many years to miniaturize if I would ever progress to NW6.

 

Does it mean anything that the only NW6 folks in my family were full blown NW6 by age 30 ? There's absolutely no history of anyone going to NW6 beyond age 40, that is why I am asking. It would seem (I hope) that genetics would remain consistent in this regard. In other words, if I was going to be a NW6 shouldn't I have already been there before age 30 since that's how the gene works in my family ?

 

BTW I've been on proscar since age 31. It never grew anything back, but i stayed on it anyway.

 

Unfortunatly Im not sure you can always count on family history to give you all of your answers. I for example am the only one in my family that is on his way to a NW6. My father is a NW3/4 with a bald spot in the back and recession in the front but has a solid mid section of hair, and my uncle on my mothers side is a NW4 with just recession in the front but thats it. Every one else has a full head of hair. I've gone as far back as great grand parents and 2nd uncles and have found no one with more hair loss than me. Sorry to say that Proscar MAY be the reason you havent advanced to a NW6. All individuals are differant regardless of genetics