MEGA session with Dr Hasson 11/30/05

[troy]

Hearing your story and reading peoples comments, You are getting mixed reviews, Well Im not going to rain on your parade. I want to say congratulations!! And thanks for being willing to share, and please do post the pics, As we all are excited and curious. I am a a very optimistic person myself, and in history when something seemed imposible, untill someone came along and did, then people relised it could be done and becomes the norm. Remeber the 4 minute mile, noone thought that could happen, now its no big deal. i do think we need to be fact driven and evaluate all facts and make sure you werent screwed, but in the mean time, I want to say congrats to you as you just went through a very long day, I hope everyhting is better for you than you even think it will.

[GuitarPlayer]

I don't think anybody is trying to rain on his parade. In fact, after looking at his pictures, I commented that his hairline shape and placement looked great and that he should have an awesome result given the number of grafts and the coarseness and waviness of his hair. I think we're all just trying to figure out how he got 6500 grafts in one sitting.

 

Qwert,

 

I don't mean to be nitpicking but, how many of these multi-grafts were two's, three's and four's? We're trying to figure out how much hair was moved. Also, you stated that width varies between 1.8cm and 2.4cm. Where is it 1.8cm and where is it 2.4cm?

 

Thanks,

GuitarPlayer

[Telephone Man]

I am sitting here reading this, I really do not post a lot anymore however saw this topic, which has been one of hot discussion to say the least over the last year.

 

I would like to get a little scientific about this for a moment:

 

1. Dr. Bernstein & Rassmans book 'The Patients guide to Hair Restoration' which I have found to be an excellent resource quotes on page74 'These naturally occuring groups (called follicular units (FU)) have a relatively constant density in the scalp of 100FU/cm 2)

 

2. Qwert quotes '1.8cm to 2.4 cm wide by 35 cm long', so if we average at 2cm x 35 cm long we have 70 cm, 70 cm x 100FU/cm 2 = 7000 FU's.

 

My doc put in 2154 with my procedure which as veterans of this site know has made me very happy. We have plenty of documented photographic evidence of mega sessions by H/W as well as others which show marvelous results. If there is such a question I am sure H/W or any other reputable group (Feller, Rose, Keene, Distefano, Shapiro etc.) would allow other physicians to view the surgery and prep for verification.

 

I personally applaude Qwert's results and wish him the best, cannot wait to see the progress over time.

 

As usual this is just my opinion.

 

TMAN

[the B spot]

I have to say that I think Qwert is going to look absolutely amazing once his hair comes in. I also feel compelled to note the length and width of his strip. 2cm+ strip width is just to much in my opinion. I just think sacrificing scar width for a few thousand grafts that you can go back and harvest later is not worth it. I am not saying this out of hand, either. I have a VERY loose scalp and very dense donor hair as well. I could have easily went to 1.75 or 2 if I wanted, but I am worried about scarring. My strip was 28 x 1.25, and if I went up to 2cm I would have yielded roughly 5000 grafts, not far from where you are at Qwert. The reason I am saying this is twofold- New people coming to this site getting the wrong impression and those who say a 35 x 2 cm strip is A-OK. Please note that this is NOT a bash whatsoever on Qwert or his Dr. I think the spirit of this forum demands that we offer some caution and some proven advice in order to balance out some of the initial shock at the size of your session. Qwert, what is the state of your donor hair now? Is it mostly depleted? Are you able to replace hair on your crown and mid-scalp region if you experience additional loss? I keep noticing that large session patients still need to go back in for additional surgery or choose to remain thin looking from the top. Qwert may be the exception due to his type of hairloss, but I was a NW 6, and I want each and every graft to grow. I just want to say that I will be shaving down to show my scar at 2 months, the same as I did at 1 month. I challenge Qwert or any mega-mega session patient to do the same. Check out my thread and look at my scar, which was closed by one of the best closure doc's in the game.

[troy]

The b spot, great post! I am also very eager to watch qwert progress. I know for me I would not want to sacrifice having a wide scar, however there may be some people who have all the things in place to push the limits. I also would love to see qwerts scar shaved down. We are all excited for you qwert, so if you could contribute over the next year it would be great!!!

[Guest]

B-spot Dr. Shapiro would not do 5000 graphs on you, they dont beleive in that size of surgery, i personally saw Qwert on friday 2nd of Dec., his scar was closed perfectly i looked at it very good, Dr. Hasson was very proud of the closure, I had surgery from Shapiro in March 05,

[Gorpy]

That's a silly response Mud. Of course it is going to look good right after surgery.

[troy]

mudpuppy, were you not happy with Shapiro? or were you not happy They didnt do more grafts? what would make you change to hasson next time? can you elaborate more on this? Qwerts procedure has sure caused a lot of buzz.

[dandare75]

I, too had a HT with Shapiro in March 05 (2200 grafts). I'm not going back either. Density is real thin in most of the recipient area. I'm scheduled for a dense pack procedure and a little tweak of the hairline by Dr. Feller in March 06.

[troy]

dandare75 ,

Just a thought, did you discuss realistic goals prior to your proceedure? Did he make you aware that it will most likely take 2 procedures? I am only 4 days post op, so I wont know how it turns out for sometime, but am guessing it will take 2 procedures to get where I want to go. What would you have like shapiro to do different?

[Guest]

Hey guys i dont want to cause any negative vibes, when i first went to Shapiro for a consultation

[troy]

Mudpuppy I think these mega session will be the hot toppic for debate over the next year. I think we are to be honest about our results and how we feel, so others can use our expirence to help them make there decisions. It sounds like maybe Matt didnt give you the time and service you expect as a client, and they ultimatley paid the price of lost buisness. I have been very happy thus far with my procedure, but I did have a lot of hair going into it, and cant say yet , because my results are yet to come, but Im healing very fast and feel great. So do you have a procedure schedule with hasson? I will also be watching your posts , as how you compare the 2 docs in personal expirence.

[Guest]

That's a silly response Mud. Of course it is going to look good right after surgery.

Gorpy, i wasnt trying to be silly, it was really good looking with the new technique theyre using it was hairs growing all the way up to the closure on each side,, hell im no expert it was just lucky i was there to see it and then i saw this post and i chimed in, Qwert seemed like a nice guy and some posts on this thread were heading in the wrong direction.

 

Troy, yes we have to be honest about results and i was, to each his own and time will tell, do yourself a favor and do a search on "Nicnitro" or "Bobman" or "Jupiter", they were all around 5000 graphs and turned out good, only my opinion and im here to learn, thanx

 

Yes im scheduled for 3000 or more in Feb. 06 with Dr. Hasson

[troy]

Mudpuppy , I will be watching your post. I will be very curious to see how you compare the 2 clinics as well as docs. I am at least a year away from another procedure. It does seem like people are loyal to there doctors rather than the industry. It is a hard thing to balance risk and progress in this industry, I would not want to be a guinny pig. But it would be great to have a huge session done and be done in one setting.

[Gorpy]

Mudpuppy, I didn't mean to sound harsh. You sound like a reasonable guy. Thanks for your input. The new closure technique you refer to is I believe a "cosmetic" technique that helps disguise the scar. It does not however prevent stretching as far as I can tell. All of the top doctors are able to close with a nice tight closure. Stretching of the scar occurs for other reasons, not because the strip wasn't closed properly or because the new technique was not used.

I don't think Shapiro and others do not do the huge mega-sessions because they are not set up to. I think it is because they don't want to risk taking a wider strip. I personally have seen many bad scars, in person and on line. I'm a little paranoid about it, so at this point I don't think I would risk getting 5000+ in one sesson. I'd rather do one, then reassess my laxicity later for another.

It's an interesting topic with so many variables.

[the B spot]

Mud-

I think before you post negatively regarding Dr. Shapiro, you should consider some things first. Saying and doing are two different things. Having my HT with Dr. Shapiro, I know that MY best interests were first and foremost.I did not matter to him that I wanted 3500 first cut, he wanted to do what is best for me. Second, no one can tell you the amount of grafts you will produce, just a best estimate. I know that many surgeons start with a 1.25 to 1.5 strip initially in order to see how well the wound closes. If the scalp is too tight or loose, most doc's adjust accordingly. I was told that should expect 2200 to 2500 yet I yielded 3100+ and did not pay any extra for them. In addition, looking at a scar two or three days old and commenting on how good it looks is not empirically sound. I have challenged any mega-mega session recipient to shave down and post their "great" scars. I have, and I will continue to post them in order to let everyone know what a scar really looks like. You know, we have yet to really see the results of these types of procedures. I can imagine rapidly depleting the donor supply, and not being prepared for future hairloss. With that said, please do not misunderstand my post. If indeed Hasson and Wong have pushed the envelope and are performing ethically sound HT's I will be the first congratulate them and any patient of theirs. What I will not tolerate is any highly regarded DR. being slammed, from someone with 3 posts to their credit, regardless of a HT or not. What you have to understand Mud, is that this forum is not about my doc, your doc,(even though he is the same) it's about the poor bastard agonizing over whether or not to do this, and which doctor to choose. Right now, no one can say that these maxed out procedures will produce the results of two 3000+ sessions. We neeed time and results, and that will tell the tale. In addition, consider the financial aspect if all of this as well. How much does 5000 to 6000 grafts cost at one shot? If you are not happy in any way, call the office and let them know, I think Dr. Shapiro would welcome any criticism directed at his methods in the effort of constantly perfecting his techniques. BTW, I am just as excited to see these results as the next guy.

[Qwert]

As I said earlier in this thread, I will go in once a month to have Joe take photos. Not only for the others on this board, but for myself as well, since I'm really curious to see a proper time line of the results that will take place during the next year. Also, I won't get into a pissing match about which Dr is better, which procedure is best etc. That's just a waste of time & not why this board is here. All I can write about is my experience with Dr Hasson & his staff, which was nothing short of 1st class all the way.

[troy]

B spot in mudpuppys defense, I can understand his point. He felt blown off and that he was not examined as an individual, and what was his goals. I am thus far very happy with my shapiro expirence, He was not my doc, but his clinic was. I think what Mudpuupy was upset about, is if he could have done more why wasnt he allowed that choice. Now I am in agreement of you B spot, in change there are risks, does that mean depleted donor supply? is it better to go conservative and do 2-3 procedures and track your future hairloss? What is the best plan? well i think, to have all the choices and facts, so a person can make the best choice they feel is for them. I dont think any doc has been slammed here. mudpuppy has complimented his professionalism and work, just would have liked to have had the opportunity to have gone more aggresive if he is a candidate. And if anyone was slammed it was matt for not making mudpuppys personal wants important and try to really understand his wants. Also i represent people for a living and do a lot of mediation so I am probally falling into that role, sorry if I am putting words into peoples mouths. I think these types of debates are also very healthy, it also lets the docs know what the market is calling for. i would like to here from pat and robert on there take on these subjects, as well as any longtimers.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this topic, which I agree is going to be a "hot topic" for months if not years to come. I'm impressed by the civility with which people on this forum have presented their differing opinions and perspectives. Apparently all the really smart and articulate hair geeks end up on this forum :-)

 

I agree that such an open debate is very healthy. Potential patients deserve to know about all their options and who is providing them. It may very well be that people will gravitate to the surgeon/clinic who fits their temperament or philosophy, with no one perspective or surgical philosophy being proven entirely superior.

 

I expect that over time we will see more information/evidence emerge on this forum about the relative advantages and disadvantages of very large session versus the merely large sessions.

 

It would certainly be interesting to hear the physicians and their staff join this discussion as well.

 

Troy, I did make so fairly extensive comments on this topic on page 1 regarding my two cents on the issue of session size. If you want clarification or more info just let me know.

 

Stay tuned for more . . .

[Guest]

I could respond to B-spot but Troy summed it up, besides, Dr. Shapiro does not need a "Defender" lets get back to the issues.

[the B spot]

Qwert, again this is NOT a Dr. bashing thread. This is philosophical and ethical debate. I want to see your scar clearly over the course of the next 5 to 8 months. I would also like to see your growth progress over the course of the next year and any potential growth from areas where shock-loss occurred.

 

Troy-- If indeed Mud feels blown off by Matt at Shapiro Medical, we do need to know this information. What I would like to hear as well is the type of conversations held during the first consult and at the second one. In addition, post a separate thread to express your frustrations, not as a measuring stick of your most recent consultation, or on someone else's thread. Again, if more members chime in concerning Matt or procedures at Shapiro medical, Pat can raise these questions and give us Dr. Shapiro's response, in an unbiased manner.

Listen guy's, I am completely on YOUR side, and I post my opinions in order to help educate and offer the voice of reason. If other Shapiro clients are having issues please, begin a thread and allow others to chime in with their opinions. That is the best way to affect change AND educate others. Posting density figures, etc... without pictures or is not the way to go about changing perception. Remember, each of these Dr.'s can be great, without proving one or the other is less skilled.

[Guest]

Back to scars:

 

One of the questions i asked Dr. Hasson was could i keep the same scar length from side to side as i got from Dr. Shapiro? he said yes, my reason for asking was i am happy with my starting and stopping points at the middle front of ears and not too high above ears.

 

One of my concerns of theses big sessions was the scar coming around to the ears and then shooting almost straight up to the top (of the safe zone), i dont want to go that far so i probably couldnt have done 6000 in one sitting anyway, but if i could have done 4000-5000 with my scar length absolutely i would, once again consultations and research will bring you to these answers.

 

When i saw Qwerts scar it was as i described all the way to the top (of the safe zone), for me probably a little to much for my head (my opinion)

 

My question is what is really better? 2 procedures of 3000 or 3 procedures of 2000

 

Each time you have to remove existing scar, doesnt that create more skin removed and equal tension if not more from additional surgeries?

 

Graft survival is not an issue here if you use a top Doctor, im talking about scarring issues only, please respond with opinions if you like, my opinion is more graphs less surgeries, looks like the future is going in that direction for strips.

[the B spot]

Mud--now this is a great topic of conversation. I am of the school of thought (right now) that 2 mega sessions will produce great results. It is of course a matter of preference. If you look across the board, the people with the best results usually have at least 2 surgeries. I am not talking about candidates that still retain 50 to 70% of their hair on top, but those of us NW 5, 6, and 7's who need serious help!!!! I would imagine that most doc's could build a great base with the initial surgery, and after it matures, refine and dense where needed. It is exactly the same type of regimen I have prescribed to.

The reasoning here is simply that each patient is unique and simply planting the greatest available grafts in one pass, does not fit everyone. Allowing your hair to mature, and then planting your second batch allows the doc to be more judicious in distribution in order to place hair exactly where it best provides coverage. That is the greatest fear when talking about massive graft sessions:

depleted donor site

mis-application of harvested grafts

I think we are all waiting to see the results of these surgeries, and if these patients still require additional surgery to soften hair lines, repair thin spots, etc...

[Guest]

B-spot i agree that 2 megas of 3000 or more should create great results, my thoughts (wich change constantly) were to get as much from my donor as possible using strip and possibly saving some maybe 1000 in the bank for way down the road meanwhile using FUE for touchups and problem spots, bear with me here but i will give you my thoughts on the numbers i was thinking

 

6000 - 7000 from strip with small amount of emergency if needed years down the road hoping my laxity would again be ok for this.

 

2000 - 3000 from fue to do touch ups or whatever needed like FUE into the scar

 

Of course i have been humbled by consultations with people that know like Jotronic, Dr. Hasson, Matt Z., Dr. Shapiro, but i think that my #s have to be trimmed down a bit overall it was a good plan.

 

My plan as of 2 weeks ago would be Shapiro then Hasson and finish with Dr. Cole from Atl., but now im rethinking the Fue thing, as i said every consultation and every day of research changes my plan

 

Im am willing to meet with you and show you my areas of concern about my scar & thin areas from my procedure at Shapiro and you can decide for yourself, i live approx. 15 min. from Shapiros Clinic

[Gorpy]

Each time you have to remove existing scar, doesnt that create more skin removed and equal tension if not more from additional surgeries?

 

No, it doesn't produce equal tension to doing it all in one session. Skin will stretch over time and you can gain laxicity again, slowly. Doing the same amount in one strip would produce much more tension.

 

The length of those super-mega session scars would bother me too. But the only way to get the same amount of grafts from a shorter strip is to go wider.