Non Surgical Surgery?

[slaphead007]

Originally posted by Aquarius:

Well still - I have the acid test for that.

How can you tell if a hair transplant doctor is lying to you? .....

 

His lips will move.

Aquarius totally agree with you, from my personal experience that is absolutely spot-on, all forum viewers should read this comment very carefully...still (oops) should keep my mouth shut

[slaphead007]

Originally posted by Bill:

LOL Slaphead...good one.

 

Bill

Cheers Bills, thanks for the PM aswell, your right as usual, i know

[Tha Joe]

Originally posted by Bill:

That Joe,

 

I can't tell whether your post on laser therapy is serious or a joke. Your last statement of the vacuum cleaner led me to believe that your seemingly serious email about your belief in the medical benefits of lasers is a joke...

 

BUT...if you are serious...there is currently a hot debate on another thread about it. Many people, including myself, have asked for PROOF that laser therapy can do anything to benefit hair...if you believe it has some benefit, surely you have some proof?

 

Bill

 

Bill,

 

I do believe in Laser Therapy. I probably have had more interaction with them than anyone here.

I will try to get you some studies from the original Swedish Manufacturer of Laser Hair Care. MHR did a fairly large study this past year as well. That study might be hard to get since Bosley bought them out but I will try. I am not a scientist so I will not go into all the scientific reasoning for laser therapy to grow hair but I use it weekly and it does have benefits. I am not saying it is the magic bullet, but it does help.

I definitely DO NOT agree with the way some people market it.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

MHR did a fairly large study this past year as well.

 

Joe, I know you're new to this forum and working for Dr. Charles (which according to our forum rules that you agreed to upon registering you need to disclose this in the signature of all your posts - i.e. "I'm a paid employee of Dr. Glenn Charles . . . ").

 

God Lord, quoting MHR's self serving "study" as any kind of credible evidence is no way to get started on this forum.

 

MHR, which I understand has now been bought by Bosley (which is owned by the Japanese corporation Aderans) is going to make a fortune off of its new laser hair treatment division - especially now that the public and the general press have been deceived into believing that low level laser theraphy is now endorsed by the FDA. As Joe Tilman pointed it out in excellent detail (see topic "FDA Approval" for detail account) low light laser theraphy was not been "FDA approved" based on any measure of its effectiveness. It was merely deemed to not be harmful (except perhaps your pocket book).

 

Most clinics who are pitching low light laser theraphy to the public as an "FDA approved hair loss treatment" that is non surgical and a non drug know that lasers are going to bring hair loss sufferers through the door in droves.

 

Then after paying thousands of dollars only to find marginal results at best they'll simply nudge them into the surgical room.

 

I expect Laser Therapy will prove to be very effective at making physicians rich if nothing else.

 

I really resented the way the laser industry sales crew tried to corner me at the ISHRS meeting in San Diego last October to get me on board for their big rah rah marketing thrust. My intuition told me that this all about money and marketing spin.

 

Joe, I've spoken with you on the phone and you sound like a good guy. But I think we'd all prefer seeing you post photos of Dr. Charles quality work on this forum rather than references to MHR's scientific studies.

 

Pat

[Tha Joe]

Pat,

 

Yes, I do work for Dr. Charles and I will add that to my post. I think you totally misunderstood my comments. I could care less if anyone ever says anything about lasers again, I don't make money for promoting them but I will definitely continue to use them myself. Like I said in my last post, I don't believe in the way people market laser therapy. I am also definitely not supporting anything MHR. Remember I am not new to the hair industry, I have seen it all.

[Reverse the Curse]

the only responsible answer to dr armani's ad i learned many years ago. liar, liar, pants on fire.

rtc

[Bill - Seemiller]

Tha Joe,

 

I was unaware that you work for Dr. Charles. Certainly we'd like to see some of his work.

 

As Pat requested, as per forum rules, please liet that you work for Dr. Charles under your signature. You can do this by going to "Go", "Personal Zone", and "Profile".

 

Regarding lasers...since you are not a researcher, I don't expect you to go about digging up scientific studies. HOWEVER, if your clinic uses lasers, what are they used for? Are they used by themselves or combined with other treatments? I've posted this on another thread, but I have seen no evidence that lasers work. Those who have claimed it to work have admitted that these "therapies" have been combined with finasteride and minoxodil. That's obsurd in proving lasers do anything since we already know that finasteride and minoxodil work!

 

Anyway...any information regarding YOUR clinic in the use of lasers would be interesting.

 

Regarding FDA, Pat posted the link to a thread posted by JoTronic which explains what FDA approval REALLY means for laser therapy aka: medical devices. I've also posted it twice when responding to you on another thread. I suggest you take some time to read it.

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[Tha Joe]

I know all about the FDA approval for laser devices in General. Known about it for years.

Hairmax is a few miles from our clinic. I see the owners regularly. They have a different approval for growth, unless they are lying to my face. I have never once said anything about growing hair but I have said it has it's benefits.

We use Lasers for post op healing and we don't charge for it. I am not wasting anymore time on this subject but I will be happy to share REAL results from Dr. Charles Transplants. He is truly an amazing surgeon!

 

I WORK FOR DR. GLENN M. CHARLES. He signs my paychecks.

[Bill - Seemiller]

I WORK FOR DR. GLENN M. CHARLES. He signs my paychecks.

 

LOL...I like that.

 

Bill

[Tha Joe]

He can beat me at basketball most of the time as well. Thanks for your insight bro. I am out for tonight.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Have a good one Tha Joe...we'll talk soon I'm sure.

 

Bill

[slaphead007]

Joe are you actually trying to suggest laser hair therapy works? I think i would have more of a chance of promoting growth rubbing cow manure on my head. You also say its not a "magic bullet" but it does help...in what way does it actually help? How can a laser possibly make dead hair follicles come back to life? Correct me if i am wrong but i dont think there is a single shred of evidence, EVER to suggest it even helps. Sorry for being so blunt but i have lost ??2000 to one of these places which i shouldn't name...go on then its advanced hair studio (or was it called advanced rug studio?) Why not prove people wrong and give some evidence to back up your views?

[Tha Joe]

Originally posted by slaphead007:

Joe are you actually trying to suggest laser hair therapy works? I think i would have more of a chance of promoting growth rubbing cow manure on my head. You also say its not a "magic bullet" but it does help...in what way does it actually help? How can a laser possibly make dead hair follicles come back to life? Correct me if i am wrong but i dont think there is a single shred of evidence, EVER to suggest it even helps. Sorry for being so blunt but i have lost ??2000 to one of these places which i shouldn't name...go on then its advanced hair studio (or was it called advanced rug studio?) Why not prove people wrong and give some evidence to back up your views?

 

Do you guys really read what is written? Did I once say I thought it grew hair? Please go read every post I have done on this subject and don't ask me one more thing about it...I have more important things to do. Peace out and Word up!

[Tha Joe]

slaphead,

 

I forgot to mention, I grew up in KY and I have had alot of experience with cow manure as well....it won't grow hair, tried it and it taste funny. There were some test done by the National Manure Association for hair growth back in the late 70's and they were inconclusive. It was thought that the neuro-n-syncomatric pathway was blocked by fibula causing a blood supply shortage to the left earlobe which in turn threw off the balance of the urethra making it difficult to throw a curve ball. We all know this causes massive hair loss in 80% of 15% of right handed north American cattle farmers. In short the manure did not work. Again I am no scientist but I think the Flux Capacitor could have benefits if used in a 1985 IROC-Z with T-Tops.

 

Now Seriously! The ONLY way proven to get hair back permanently is TRANSPLANTS. I know this and i am not endorsing lasers for growth but I do feel they help with post op healing. Again ,I am not a scientist or Doctor. Sorry if I have made any of you guys think otherwise. Like everyone else on here I have just been voicing my opinion as to what I know and have seen. I think all you guys are very knowledgeable and I absolutely admire how you all spend so much time on here helping people.

[slaphead007]

Originally posted by Tha Joe:

slaphead,

 

I forgot to mention, I grew up in KY and I have had alot of experience with cow manure as well....it won't grow hair, tried it and it taste funny

 

 

Joe if you tried cow manure on your head, how do you know it tastes funny, does this mean you have taste buds on your scalp?

[Tha Joe]

LOL! Doesn't everyone?

[MrJobi]

If Laser therpy was sooo great, I'm sure they would be using it more in mainstream healing.. Think about it , increased blood flow - faster healing - short recovery times..

 

Every professional athlete would be using it..

[Tha Joe]

Originally posted by Mrjb:

If Laser therpy was sooo great, I'm sure they would be using it more in mainstream healing.. Think about it , increased blood flow - faster healing - short recovery times..

 

Every professional athlete would be using it..

 

 

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=522143

http://www.thorlaser.com/wound/physiological-changes.htm

http://www.nata.org/jat/readers/archives/39.3/i1062-6050-39-3-223.pdf

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0MDQ/is_4_8/ai_n16043791

[Tha Joe]

Guys,

 

We could debate this laser thing forever but why waste time. There is data supporting both sides. We are not scientists or researchers. Let's get back to things we know that work like "um" Transplants. Elvis has left the building.

[Dr. Alan Feller]

The Joe,

I appreciate the effort you went to in posting the laser studies. And I did bother to read the first study whose link you posted.

 

May I say that wound contracture does not correlate with organ (follicular) apoptosis (self inflicted necrosis). The experiment cited attempts to treat external trauma, not pre-programmed death. The assumed connection between the two is just too much of a leap to be applicable.

 

Second, and more importantly, the experiment cited did not take into account heat. If you read about wound healing under different temperatures you will find the same degree of difference in wound contracture. In other words, the presence of a 5 cent bandage would have produced the same wound closure differential as a $10,000 laser.

 

Again, laser is NOT a substance. It has NO properties other than to act as a form of ENERGY. When those photons hit a surface the amount of energy absorbed varies with the amount of power and the wavelength at which the photons were sent. Once absorbed, the energy is re-radiated as HEAT. That's all there is to it and there is absolutely NO physiological benefits delivered other than HEAT.

 

Finally, most of the laser in LLLT is deflected by the remaining hair and the skin itself!

 

If anyone can prove a significant cosmetic difference on any kind of a consistent basis I will go out there and buy a machine that day. So far I still don't own a machine.

 

For now, LLLT is only a way to make money without delivering cosmetically significant nor consistent results. In essence, modern day snake oil.

 

I look forward to be proved wrong, I hope someone can do so.

[MrJobi]

Thanks Dr. Feller

 

In addition to my research, when top docs like Dr. Feller support the lack of "proof" of the laser treatment, it just reinforces my feelings about this product..

 

the documented proof is not there..

[pushing 40]

This is an easy call for me. I look at it like this: I've met a few HT surgeons, including Dr. Feller. This laser therapy has been approved for use by the FDA. Dr Feller could easily purchase one and immediately start raking in the bucks within days. Serious dollars guys. However, he has not done so. Instead, he is one of the few who is still demanding proof of its benefit to, at minimum, make it a cost/benefit positive for his patients. That alone is enough for me to step away from the issue until, as Dr Feller states, there is proof positive that it truly is a beneficial therapy. How many people do you personally know who step away from a huge profit margin because its not benefitting the clients? Not too many. Character and integrity are a precious quality, not seen often enough in the world of cosmetic surgery but obviously a standard with this doctor. Just my opinion.

[PCC]

Regarding the MHR laser study, doesn't Dr. Leavitt serve as a paid "advisor" to the company that developed and manufacturers the device? (Maybe Pat could chime in on this?) What a convenient and interesting arrangement!

 

I agree that the ad looks like something from the 80's and the model like a certain actor or celebrity but I can't place exactly who. If that guy has had HTs how many grafts has he had, 5 or 10?

 

Phil

[Aquarius]

The usual prescription for and MHR doctor is between 20 & 50 grafts hidden.Ala Leavitt - Bosley -ECT.