Propecia vs. Generics

[Guest]

My question is this:

 

I am currently on the propecia (Merc). My prescription is going to expire in 6 months. And rather than paying to get a new prescription, and spend more money I am willing to try the alternative. (I believe it's proscar).

 

Does anyone know if the difference between Merc's stuff and the generics is only the price. I don't want to save a few bucks only to find out that although both drugs contain finasteride, Propecia does it's job better.

 

Does anyone have any facts regarding this? Also what's the best place to order Proscar on-line (by best I mean cheapest).

 

Thanks

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic''. Arthur C. Clarke

[Guest]

My question is this:

 

I am currently on the propecia (Merc). My prescription is going to expire in 6 months. And rather than paying to get a new prescription, and spend more money I am willing to try the alternative. (I believe it's proscar).

 

Does anyone know if the difference between Merc's stuff and the generics is only the price. I don't want to save a few bucks only to find out that although both drugs contain finasteride, Propecia does it's job better.

 

Does anyone have any facts regarding this? Also what's the best place to order Proscar on-line (by best I mean cheapest).

 

Thanks

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic''. Arthur C. Clarke

[Mr T]

Proscar is not a generic . It is finasteride that is also produced by Merck, but Proscar is not FDA approved for the treatment of hairloss. Propecia is.

 

Proscar comes in 5mg tablets that most people split into four pieces and then take one part per day (or overy other day). Doing so "equates" the dosage to the 1mg of Propecia you are probably taking today.

 

I got mine at http://www.prescriptionskeywest.com/proscar.php

 

$95 plus $18 shipping for 30 tablets.

 

Do a search and you will find posts with other online sources for both generic and brand name versions.

 

Mr. T

[Guest]

What is the guarantee then that finasteride will work just as fine as propecia?

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic''. Arthur C. Clarke

[arfy]

Propecia = 1 mg Finasteride

Proscar = 5 mg Finasteride

 

Proscar is prescibed for "BPH"(benign prostatic hyperplasia aka an enlarged prostate). At some point, guys with BPH realized that their hair was improving from Proscar. Out of that discovery Propecia was born, after Merck realized that a 1 mg dose was the minimum required to do the trick.

[Guest]

is a higher dosage likely to give better result?

[Teddw2ds]

The simple answer is "yes"... increased dosages will acheive better results. But, the result curve is very steep.

 

In other words, 1mg daily of Finasteride (whether Propecia or Proscar) supresses approximately 85% of scalp DHT (the hormone that causes hair loss). Doubling that dosage only gets you to about the 90% supression range, and for those men who take Proscar in its full strength (5 mg daily) for BPH, their DHT supression is only about 93%.

 

So, while higher doses do supress more DHT, the margin of difference is not clinically significant. The 1mg dose already blocks the vast majority of the hormone.

[arfy]

Merck says that a higher dose does not give better results, it just slightly increases the odds of side effects, if I am not mistaken. However, I have heard that maybe certain guys might respond better to a higher dose. This is something to discuss with your doctor.

 

What I would say is this... start with the lowest dose possible, and give it time to work. A year probably. Take some "before " photos to compare to. At the end of the year, if you have had some results, just stay on the same dose you've been at, and only increase your dose if your results start to fade. If you have not seen any results in the first year (and have also not had any side effects) think about increasing your dose.

 

Again, this is something you should talk about with your doc, after you've tried 1 mg for a year.

[Guest]

I am on proscar (full 5 mg) for last 4 months. When I prescription an out I went back to my dermat and told him I haven't seen much regrowth, he recommended me to take two 5mg pills a day. I was stunned. I knew the guy had no idea what he is talking about. I had my HT 3 weeks back so I will continue the full 5mg for couple more months (to protect against shock) and then start tapering off to half and then quarter pill.

[Guest]

that cutting pills is not as effective, because you end up with non-equal amounts of finasteride in each pill, over four days? Does that really decrease the drugs effectiveness, or is it negated by the fact that at the end of four days you will have consumed the same amount of drug? Also - does taking Propecia at any particular time of day has any advantage (for example morning vs. evening, before meal vs. after meal?)

 

Thanks.

 

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic''. Arthur C. Clarke

[Mr T]

In instructions, it suggested to take the Proscar at the same time of day. It probably helps with balancing the dosage, but that is just my guess.

 

Mr. T

[arfy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>is it negated by the fact that at the end of four days you will have consumed the same amount of drug?

That is what I think. You are going for a long-term overall dose. Keep in mind it is virtually impossible to cut a Proscar into 4 equal sizes anyway. Proscar is pentagonal (5-sided). There is no real way to get a perfectly measured daily dose by splitting a tablet.

 

Like you suggested, my opinion is that an exact daily dose is probably not that crucial, as long as you get your total dose.

[vocor1]

Yeah, I'm curious to see studies with higher doses of finasteride. I wonder where the documentation for the "steep curve" of finasteride effectiveness is. I'd like to read the study.

I quarter Proscar and at 9 months I'm doing awesome with regrowth and no further hairloss. I'll miss a dose occasionally (not on purpose though) and my doses cannot be exactly equal (I'm not that patient).

Still my results are excellent. That's all that matters.

 

vocor1

Knowledge is Power

If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared.

[Teddw2ds]

I really tried to find the research report on the "steep curve" of finasteride effectiveness, but it has been over a year since I've read it, and I could not find it anywhere online. It was on the Glaxo Smith Kline website in relation to their development of Dutasteride, which blocks both Type I and Type II of the 5 Alpha Reductase enzyme (Finasteride only blocks Type I), which is responsible for the converstion of testosterone to DHT. Since Glaxo has reportedly halted any marketing of Dutasteride for the treatment of hair loss, I would imagine this is why they have taken that research off their site. Dutasteride will still be available, but it is marketed as a treatment for BPH (benign prostatic hyperplasia). As with Propecia/Proscar, you just have to ask your doctor to prescibe it "off label," meaning for purposes other than what it is described for.

 

Without the research report to refer to, my exact figures may be slightly off, but that's the gist of it. Higher doses return very little additional benefit.

 

I did find similar research, though, on Dutasteride. Here's that link: http://www.prous.com/mom/oct_00/mom.html

 

I switched from Propecia to Proscar (quartered) about a year ago and I have had the same great results from both. Finasteride has a half-life of about two weeks, so even if you don't get the exact same dosge each day, there is always enough flowing through your system to do what it's intended to do.

 

[This message was edited by Teddw2ds on March 31, 2003 at 10:15 AM.]

[vocor1]

That's a good post.

One also has to remember that the half life of dutasteride is like 6 months. It stays in your system a long time, so hope you don't have any side effects or they'll be there a while.

The good news is, you can "forget" or "skip" more doses!

It is really hard for me to believe that SKB scrapped their marketing plans for Avodart as a hairloss treatment unless they knew something serious could go wrong. But then again, they are skill marketing it for the prostate.

I can't believe that they'd turn down a HUGE revenue opportunity and a chance to beat down a rival (Merck) if they had the chance.

Something just doesn't add up here!

 

vocor1

Knowledge is Power

If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared.

[Teddw2ds]

Like you, Vocor, I would assume that the revenue potential would be huge, but I have read that Merch just barely breaks even on Propecia. Personally, I think that could well be because anyone who done any research sees the benefit of taking Proscar instead of Propecia... same drug, less money! It's a no brainer.

 

Glaxo may just realize that those who are interested in the hair restoration properties will buy the BPH formulation and do the same thing as they did with Proscar. Why throw the extra money into marketing to a whole different segment, when that segment is probably going to be far more active in seeking out that product? The hair loss consumer is going to be far more likely to already be aware of this development than is the prostate consumer. Glaxo knows it will get the hair loss sales either way, and specific marketing to the hair loss consumer would just be wasted money. Just my opinion, but I think it's very similar to what happened with Propecia. If Proscar was not an option, I think Merck would see much higher revenues from Propecia.

[vocor1]

That is an interesting and plausible theory. And it may in fact be the case.

I think arfy said that Propecia sales dwarf those of Avocor (aka 2% minoxidil and a lot of fake photography). That's a shame.

One of the problems is that health insurance won't pick up the tab for something so vain as wanting your hair back.

"Hey dickhead insurance companies! You think I like a sunburned scalp? What about the Prozac I have to take . . .!"

JUST KIDDING.

I think the fact that the insurance companies won't pay for Propecia is hurting sales a lot. Propecia isn't cheap. Avocor is. Sorry, but those ideas work in the US market.

I'm glad the article you linked to talked about increases in hormone levels. Merck's own clinical study says the same thing, and it is easy to deduce that if you block some testosterone to DHT conversion, then you get more circulating testosterone.

Ahh yes, a mild (9-27%) increase in the "happy hormone".

Honestly, I BELIEVE that I'm benefitting from that. At least I feel that I am. Hard to tell, but it seems my spirit is always pretty much high now even when adversity strikes. And workouts a bit more fruitful.

Or maybe it is all psychological. I guess it doesn't matter.

I should get some blood work done and see what the current testosterone levels are in me. That might be an interesting thing to know.

Anyway, good to see that article.

The "mystery" of Avodart continues!

 

vocor1

Knowledge is Power

If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared.

[Teddw2ds]

Another very good point... my insurance company would not pay for Propecia, but they did pay for Proscar... until this year!!!!

 

I guess maybe they got wise to the ruse, or they were just being cheapskate bastards across the board. The world may never know.

[noreaster]

pharm companies have the right to make a profit if they can, but if u can get it covered by the hmo, then by all means, the insurance companies are the evil ones, and dropping seniors from their plans

[rjnebbo]

Originally posted by Teddw2ds:

I really tried to find the research report on the "steep curve" of finasteride effectiveness, but it has been over a year since I've read it, and I could not find it anywhere online.

 

I think this might be what you where referring to?

 

www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dail...0/060700/cp00001.rtf

 

http://www.physics.upenn.edu/p...medres/propcrap3.htm

 

Interesting reading as it tends to indicate that 1mg may be to HIGH of a dose. The article reads:

 

"In view of the fact that the drug must be taken forever to ensure continued and retained hair growth and that there are serious side effects such as impotence, breast enlargement, reduction in ejaculate, and

reductions in the psa score for possible prostate cancer, it seemed imperative that tests of efficacy should have been carried out at low dosages. The efficacy data submitted to the FDA did not possess the statistical accuracy to prefer 1 mg over 0.2 mgs and no studies were shown down to .05 mg.

 

Thus we conclude that the drug should not be approved at the high dosage until data are provided to the FDA showing efficacy studies at the lower dosages of sufficient statistical accuracy and with clear presentations of the effects of systematic errors in the studies."

 

I just purchased my Proscar today and I am thinking of starting at .50mg rather than the 1mg dosage (half of what Merck says). This might be a good idea anyway to see if any side effects happen, although it could take a few weeks to really know. Only think is these 5mg pills are so small, that trying to make these into 1mg dosages is hard enough, let alone .50mg.

 

I was thinking maybe making a Alcohol tincture out of the crushed up tablets... Hummm

 

10ml of 80 proof Vodka to 1 5mg tablet would give me 10 1ml .50 dosages. I read that Finasteride is freely soluble in Alcohol, but practically insoluble in water. Thus the reason for the Vodka

 

Proscar IS NOT enteric coated. Enteric coatings are designed to keep the medication intact until it passes through the stomach and reaches the intestine. The coating may also protect the stomach from irritation (as with coated aspirin and ferrous sulfate).

 

The coating of the tablet is to eliminate the risk of drug absorption through the skin of a pregnant woman due to the possible teratogenic effect the drug could have on a male fetus since it blocks the transformation of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone.

 

Apparently the FDA for some unknown reason actually blacked-out, i.e. censored, the actual solubility of Finasteride. However, it is soluble in ethanol. Ethanol is Grain Alcohol, othewise known as Everclear . So why the censoring? I think it is to protect Propecia sales and Everclear is VERY strong! Thus the reason for 80 or 100 proof Vodka.

 

Cheers!

[Smoothy]

Generics and Branded drugs are very very similar (some cases the actual branded pharma co. manufactures the generics in the same plant for the generic companies in exchange for royalties-this is rare but does happen).

In general, the it is the same drug ingredients but the dose migh vary slighlty--- 1.2mg or 0.8mg--- so the quality and control isnt there.

But with a drug like Propecia that is cosmetic and not life threatening I dont see a problem.

I personally take Prosar which is the same price for a 90 day pill supply as Propecia but Proscar is the 5mg vs. 1mg Propecia-- I split w/pill cutter 4 ways-- so each piece is a little over 1mg--- However, same price for same pills but last 4x longer-- 90 pills last 12 months.

 

SMOOTHY

Dr. Shapiro

Rogaine xra-Propecia

MSM/Zinc/Saw Pallmetto

Enlyten anti-oxidant daily