Folligen - Graftcyte - Copper Peptides etc.

[Mark H]

Thx for that Bay. If memory serves, Dr. Pickart is the one that formulated the spray that i just started using tonight.

 

Speaking of which. I'm behind the learning curve on applying this stuff. I'm pretty mediocre at putting on the minox too, but the morning application is the one I do carefully and it looks okay since I don't have much hair anyway right now. However, tonight I put way too much CP on, and that stuff really gunks up your hair. My suggestion if you work is not to put this crap on until you get home.

 

Anyway I try to keep more than 4 hours between applications. Tonight then I applied minox, and I ended up with a green head that made me look like the saturday night live CHIA HEAD. Now, thats not a big deal, I'm at home where I make a fool of myself daily anyway, but I'm hoping I can get a bit better at this...yuk.

 

mark

[bayscholar]

Very true Markh I only use it at night, the morning would require to much time to get it right. Also I think folligen can be diluted with water to help reduce the green scalp effect.

[Mark H]

A pros po of nothing, can someone tell me how to add an avatar. Everyone else has a funny picture but me. Okay maybe not everyone, but still...

 

I'm feeling very left out

 

mark

[Bill - Seemiller]

Mark...you are my test subject with this Folligen stuff. Believe me, I hope it works for you! I might try it after my HT grows in....I'm just going to follow the advice of my doc and not use it while healing.

 

LOL on the avatar. It's pretty easy to add one that's built-in...a little more techy to add one of your own. Let me see if I can post the instructions for you:

 

1. At the top of this page on the left hand corner, click "Go" then "personal zone" then "profile". They will act as drop down boxes and you will have to click on "profile"

 

2. On the right hand side of your profile, click "View/Edit Complete Profile"

 

3. Scroll down until you see "Avatar / Picture URL:" and choose the option there (I don't know if it's "Add" or "Edit" - Mine says edit but I'm thinking that's because I have one there already"

 

4. A popup box will come up. You can either choose one of the ones listed or add your own. If you are putting up your own you have to choose "Custom Avatar", otherwise just click on the one you want. You can click "next" to continue scrolling through avatars and click on the one you want.

 

5. After you've selected your avatar...click the "Select this one" button.

 

6. Click on the "Close" button to close the window

 

7. On your profile page, scroll down to the bottom and click "submit".

 

That should do the trick.

 

I didn't post all the instructions for adding your own avatar. If you are going to add your own, you will have to find a photo on your computer and resize it to 60 X 60 pixels. then you can follow the above instructions and upload your own following the on-screen instructions that I didn't include.

 

I hope this helps

 

Bill

[Mark H]

Thanks Bill. I've actually fallen behind on some reading and posting here...positive signs that I may be on the verge of having a life.

 

Have no fear tho. I'm not leaving the baldy enclave anytime soon. right now I need support, and later i plan on being one of the smug b****rds with hair lording it over the balding noobs.

 

PS: how do you like the custom avatar? Well of course its a logo actually. I had it made for myself when I worked at Netscape and changed the N to an M.

 

mark h

[Bill - Seemiller]

I like it...well done. I almost worked for Netscape actually at one point. That's cool...I should make a little animated gif. If I feel so inspired maybe I will...in the meantime, I'll stick with my Matousi

 

Bill

[Robert_]

Originally posted by Mark H:

positive signs that I may be on the verge of having a life.

 

Now that's just crazy talk. We can't be allowing that kind of attitude here, ya know.

 

Sincerely,

 

One of the "smug b****rds with hair lording it over the balding noobs"

 

 

 

Ok, in all seriousness I did some digging around in the whole copper peptides thing and I wrote up a blog post on the Hair Loss Q & A Blog. I didn't get too much into the studies and such because I keep the blog pretty "layman-esque" as much as possible. However, in my digging around it really looks like the science is there. As pretty much all of us seemed to agree, it appears that copper peptides, when applied in a strong enough concentration, can be a vialbe addition to a hair loss regimen.

 

I'm ordering some Folligen cream and lotion. The cream is supposedly great for the hair line and thinner spots. The lotion is for thicker areas. I guess I'll be using it at the crown.

 

-Robert

[Mark H]

Robert, do report back on what this stuff is like okay? I'm using the therapy spray and I go to bed each night with a head that looks like Tru Green treated it. I'm still working that issue, and I'm getting better at it.

 

On the science.I haven't seen anything that contradicts positive outcome, and that is key to me. Has anyone seen a negative result? One negative scientific (not anecdotal) result would be enough to at least give me pause. I research cholesterol lowering nutriceuticals (foods that naturally lower cholesterol) some work, and some don't, and there is no shortage of flim flams, so I like lots of data.

 

In this case the number of studies appears to be thin but positive, (I'd like to see 25 please) all positive. However uncontradicted evidence combined with some respected authority is enough for me to spend my money at this point.

 

If I was dying, and someone said, heres a vaccine that may cure, but so far only 5 studies say you'll be cured. Should I say, "screw that. Lets wait for the rest of the scientific commmunity to weigh in. Oh, and if its too late for me, leave a dose on my headstone, there's a good fellow."

 

Now Bill's statement about possible infection gave me pause (or paws if you like) but even tho I'm a layman, how much infection are we seeing post op, eh? I haven't heard of a single case, so what is that about? That one sounds a little lame, although I say it myself(who does'nt know s*** from shinola). At worst it appears that CP's do no harm...so far anyway.

 

BTW, don't worry about me getting a life yet Robert. I'm not quite two months, but in two more months I aim to grow me some babe catchers, then I could get a little busy .

 

mark

[Robert_]

Mark,

 

At almost two months post-op, your risks of any kind of infection are slim-to-none. Your recipient area has healed and should look almost exactly as it did pre-op. I wouldn't worry too much about that.

 

As far as more studies, there just aren't any. Studies take lots of money to set up and perform and since it doesn't look like anyone is researching CP hardcore right now or seeking FDA approval anymore, the research may have been abandoned. Much of the financial backing and excitement that previously surrounded treatments like CP has gone to hair cell culturing research these days, it seems.

 

I will keep my eye out for more studies, etc. for copper peptides but at $36 for a three month supply I dont need much arm-twisting. It either does something for me within 6 months or I drop it. No biggie.

 

-Robert

[Bill - Seemiller]

Mark,

 

Well, I think the infection statement was a general one about all "healing" sprays and it only was to state that IF a graft was to get infected by other means, these sprays could spread the infection to other areas. I don't think that Dr. Hasson is saying that these sprays cause infections by themselves. The main message, however, that he conveyed was that they are a waste of time.

 

As far as I'm concerned...like I said...give it a try if you like. I'm just going to wait before I try anything...and take the advice of my doc while I'm in the "healing" phase. Maybe once I reach a few months post op or once my hair grows in, I'll try the lotion and/or cream and/or spray. But I'll live vicariously through you and Robert for now...so I look forward to hearing how you evaluate the product.

 

Btw...what is this nonsense about getting a life? Come now! That is unacceptable here

 

Bill

[Mark H]

I can't help thinking Dr. Hasson simply hasn't looked into it, and his answer is just a blow off.

 

It isn't reasonable to contradict all available research with a: "I don't believe it". Thats not good enough.

 

As for infection, not buying it. I used it right after my HT. No harm. I'm calling B******t on the good doctor on this one

[Bill - Seemiller]

Well I do find it a bit odd that you would dismiss the Dr. Hasson's opinion so quickly.

 

As a general statement, there are a number of products out there that claim to do wonderous things and the majority of them are crap. Unfortunately I was one of those idiots that tried almost every single one of them because I wanted to spare expense on Propecia and I was hoping that SOMETHING would work. I might further add that a number of these products also have claimed to have "real science" behind it. The problem is that the "science" behind most of these products, including Folligen from what I understand, is the same one who markets the product. Real proof has only really been seen for Propecia and Minoxodil out of all other products. Copper Peptides has been around for awhile and I'm sure people have used the product. Yet there are no real positive reviews out there that the product regrows hair. If the product really was wonderous, don't you think someone somewhere would really be raving about it? Do research on this or other sites and see all the advice given. You'll find that almost all people, including the long term veterans will say "Stick to Propecia and Minox". Some will say (including me I might add) to feel free to try other products, but use as a supplement and not a replacement.

 

I want to add that I am not against using copper peptides...in fact, if you remember correctly I said, I'd like to try it and see how it works eventually. But I also respect my doctor's opinion, and at least while i'm in the healing phase, won't use it. As far as hair is concerned, he is one of the top docs in the world...so I'm going to do good by listening to his advice.

 

Perhaps JoTronic could elaborate more on this point.

 

Anyway, I mean no disrespect in the above post...but I thought I'd share my thoughts on your last post which seems pretty judgmental.

 

 

Bill

[Mark H]

Okay Bill, let me cut back on my sugar intake, pull myself off the ceiling and offer a more civilized response.

 

First, no disrespect to you, and apologies for sounding so snippy. However, I AM frustrated with this third hand response from H&W.

 

What I'm looking at is your opinion, of Jotronics opinion, of H&W's opinion of something called "healing products".

 

So, without actually responding themselves, and without actually addressing the specific issue of CP's, and without explaining why they apparently contradict current research, they've come down against CP usage.

 

Now, having acknowledged that I've floated off the deep end in how I framed my objections earlier, my Automatic Shock Proof S**t Detector is still beeping loudly.

 

H&W's opinion does count, but with all due respect, I don't think we've got one from them yet on CP's.

 

And now if you'll excuse me, I'm due at the Betty Ford clinic.

 

mark

[Robert_]

Girls, girls! That's enough, now. Now go ahead and give each other a hug.

 

Seriously, though, we're all sitting around talking about a cream in a tube. I'm going to give it the 6 month challenge starting December 1st and give a fair write up about it at the end of May. I'm horrible about remembering to take photos and I seriously doubt that I will have any kind of significant growth from the CP but I'll try to keep a photo log too.

 

Fair 'nuff?

 

-Robert

[Jotronic]

Gents,

 

I have never seen one thread, in my years online, go so long about CP's.

 

First, to MarkH, at one point H&W offered CP in the form of Graphcyte spray. I used this myself every 45 minutes for a full week after my first procedure with Dr. Wong in 2002. I was so impressed by it I think I even ranted about the healing power of it on this forum. The problem was that I really didn't have anything to compare it to so in hindsight I did not really know what I was talking about. It was the procedure itself that was so much better than what I had been used to.

 

I did not use Graphcyte in any of my subsequent procedures with Dr. Wong and I actually healed faster with regards to redness dissipating as well as loss of scabs in the recipient area.

 

Regarding the growth rates of hair after a procedure with CP vs. w/out CP I also had faster growth after my later surgeries w/out CP. As a matter of fact, my hairline grafts started growing five weeks post-op after procedure #3.

 

With regards to our position on infection, Bill was correct; IF there is even a single graft that becomes infected a liquid spray can (not necessarily will) spread the infection to neighboring grafts. It only makes sense, the liquid runs across the scalp after it is liberally applied and spreads over the rest (or parts) of your scalp carrying with it anything it may pick up. This isn't a guarantee, just a possibility, but it is not why we don't recommend it. We just don't see a difference with CP vs. w/out CP on our patients and that is why we don't sell it anymore or recommend it.

[bayscholar]

Funny comment JoeT it reminds me of the many calls you took from me(PO)letting me know I was not going to be the first hasson no grow...and for that matter get rest take it easy and don't buy every magic potion that comes along.. a little vitamin-e should be all I need. If I could go back or go back, possibly ht2 some day, it would be vitamin e + two full weeks off work and just chillin in Vancouver till I can get the staples out and have my hair washed at the clinic during that time. I would imagine that would be the best post op strategy possible, no stress of flying/work or anything for two weeks. With that said I like CP but truthfully until I compare my crown pics in six months I may just be using tricomin because it feels good.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello everyone,

 

Despite what it looks like, I've actually enjoyed this conversation...so no harm done from my end at all...I hope and trust Mark feels the same way? I really like Mark and have been enjoying having him on the forums and hearing his opinions, regardless of whether it differs from mine or not...it's all good .

 

Joe,

 

Thanks for your response. It is helpful since I was only quoting what you told me. To me, the infection possibility is logical, which I believe you said extends to all liquid sprays not just Folligen or copper peptides. It's just a general claim if I am correct and it does make sense logically.

 

That being said...I might try copper peptides after the hair grows in. My reasoning for waiting is two-fold:

 

1. As advice given to me by Dr. Hasson through Joe, I will follow the doctor's orders

 

2. I want to make sure that when I try copper peptides that the copper peptides are being tested as to their effect alone. It would be tempting to say, if I had early growth, that copper peptides did it...whether or not that is true or not could never really be determined. But once my hair grows in, and by using the product, I can determine whether or not the copper peptides is adding any new additional hairs or thickening my existing hair.

 

So my friends...all is well =)

 

Again, I do look forward to observing Robert and Mark's usage of copper peptides to see how they make out with it. Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Bay,

 

Nice post! I think that sounds like a great post op strategy to me. My one regret about my Vancouver experience is that I did not stay to enjoy the city....I was in Wed out Friday. At least I made it to the post op cleaning...but I had no time to tour the city or do anything fun. I know I know...what could be more fun than a day in the chair with the Hasson and Wong crew? . But seriously...would have been nice, my wife and I chilling and enjoying some leisure time, to relax and enjoy.

 

I'm actually thinking of going back to Vancouver in the next year or so....only for recreation to actually get a chance to enjoy the area. I actually know a few people in Canada only about 5 hours away who said they'd like to meet me there if I ever go again. Of course if I DO go...I'd like to hook up with Joe and the crew and do dinner

 

Bill

[Mark H]

Okay boys and girls, I'm partially decaffeinated, so this may go a little better. I don't know what the hell happened to me earlier, maybe my period has come early. No worries okay Bill? I'm old and I get cranky. Now with that finally out of the way...

 

I appreciated Jo's response, it clarifies some things. It should be put in perspective as a professional medical opinion, based on empirical observation and not scientific data. That's not to denigrate it, the opposing professional opinion that I'm working from operates I believe from the same perspective, although unlike H&W it acknowledges current positive research, and of course its empirical data contradicts. That is why I tip slightly in favor of CP's, that and the plain fact that I want it to work...nothing scientific there of course.

 

There are a couple of issues that still bother me.

 

The first one is the issue of infection. How real an issue is this? I've never yet read on this board of a single case that I'm aware of and as Jo acknowledges it is not the reason they don't recommend CP's, so why bring it up?

 

The second one is that I'm particularly interested in CP's in conjunction with the usage of Minoxidil. There is potentially a synergistic effect. That could be said for Propecia as well, but I focus on Minoxidil here because it too is topical, and one may aid the other. Jo doesn't make clear if his experience involved both, and if so whether it was all used across the entire HT.

 

Finally, the administration of a Full Metal Jacket approach to post op care is most intriguing to me. The desire is that Telogen could be significantly reduced by a disipline involving Minoxidil, Propecia, CP's, and Nizoral. The end result being a significantly shorter fasting period post op.

 

I said from the start that it isn't clear to me that CP's are worth it long term. So far the science says CP's make hair grow faster by shortening Telogen.

 

On a side note, the Folligen line claims to have 9.0 times more copper peptides per ounce than concentrated Graftcyte and 31.8 times more copper peptides per ounce than Tricomin.

 

Of course, the fact that I don't know the truth of the above is part of the reason for this thread, and I thank those who've been contributing to it, and again hope they'll pardon my rashness.

 

One final note: When it comes to dating, you may get turned down, but if you don't ask, you're not in the game. The same goes for CP's: the only thing you can be certain of, is that if you don't use them, they won't do anything for you.

 

mark

[Robert_]

Mark H,

 

I see no reason for you to apologize. I was only kidding in my last post about anyone having to hug and make up in this thread. We're all big boys, we can take a little opposition and lively debate. God knows, I know that Jotronic, Bill, and myself have seen it on these discussion forums a time or two.

 

Personally, I don't count Folligen, Graftcyte, or Tricomin to be the same caliper of treatment as to what you recieved from Dr. Cooley's office post-op. Dr. Cooley's post-op therapy spray that he gives to all of his patients may contain copper peptides, but also contains other agents that he employs that speeds the healing process considerably.

 

Anyone keeping up with Dr. Cooley patients that post photos can attest to the fact that Dr. Cooley's patients do tend to heal very rapidly no matter what their age. I'm not saying that the spray he gives to patients post-op is the sole reason for this, but I do believe that is a crucial component. I bring Dr. Cooley up for two reasons: Mark H had his recent procedure performed by Dr. Cooley and no doubt recieved this spray and Dr. Cooley is the only physician that I know of that hands out a spray like it. I am afraid that I do not know what other ingredients are in the spray and even if I did, I'm sure that it's proprietary anyway. However, I can say that I am continuously impressed that Dr. Cooley goes to that length for his patients.

 

Every physician is different. There is more than one way to skin a cat and more than one approach to successful post-operative care. I don't think anyone participating in this discussion will disagree with my sentiments that Dr. Cooley, Dr. Hasson, and Dr. Wong all perform impeccable hair restoration surgeries and are among the elite few in the world. So I have no problem taking and heeding the advice of any one of them. If there appears to be any discrepancy in their post-op care advice, then I would suggest that each patient do what their respective physicians recommend.

 

However, as far as copper peptides utilized at any other time than post hair transplant surgery, the studies, however limited, are promising. Mark, I don't have any reason not to believe Folligen's claims of significantly higher concentrations of copper peptides as opposed to it's competitor, Tricomin other than the fact that Tricomin no doubt knows about Folligen and their website. I strongly believe that if any false information were posted about Tricomin, ProCyte's lawyers would undoubtedly have the content pulled. But it's been there for a few years now.

 

I'm still waiting for my shipment to arrive so that I can start my 6 month test.

 

-Robert

[Mark H]

thx for that Robert,

 

I don't consider myself a particularly moody person, but I went in to my lawyer's the other day, and in the middle of the discussion he asked me if I was 65 (I'm 52). So I had to reply, "no, I'm 52, I just apparently _look_ 65"

 

Its true too. looking fairly bald is tremendously aging, and add to that that my hair is gray because I just don't dare color it right now. Plus my skin looked terrible.

 

Thanks to Dr. Cooley's help, and some additional work online, my skin is starting to look younger. I'm also hitting the gym hard, so I intend to have a coming out party around late January.

 

In a few months then, I intend to turn into a butterfly, but just at the moment, I'm a pretty ugly-ass caterpillar, and I think its affecting me negatively, so without retracting my opinions, I'm not entirely pleased with how I stated them.

 

Enough about me tho.

 

I've wanted to keep Dr. Cooley's name out of my part of the discussion as much as possible, because he intends to write a paper for his learned journal, and he wanted me to be discreet. However, the cat is out of the bag somewhat.

 

I do believe my points about H&W are valid, and I get the impression they simply focus deeply on the mechanics of HT's, which is why they've excelled, and even pioneered in that area. I think a more holistic approach might benefit patients.

 

On Folligen's claims: Man, I'm here to tell you, the spray I got is STRONG stuff compared to my original post-op stuff. Its like using Scott's Turf Builder on your head.

 

I was reading your older thread on Dermatch. I've got Toppik here myself, which is kind of a dead loss at the moment with gray hair, and not much of any hair to put it on (although I'm going to post 2 month progress Wed. which I'm fairly happy with)...if you can call bald happy.

 

What is more, I'm puzzling on how I might fit toppik or Dermatch into a regiment that includes Minox AM and PM, and CP's several hours before I put on my PM Minox.

 

As it is, with my hair short, the foam takes a while to work in, and can leave my hair a bit hard, although not really greasy as the other liquid did.

 

I'd appreciate your tips, and where you're going to go with this.

 

I've pointed out that since CP's are a turf builder more than a new hair grower, that long term I may not use it, and indeed, it may be inconvenient to have green hair in the afternoon if I rejoin the work force.

 

cheers,

mark

[JW]

Mark:

 

Why have you not resumed coloring your hair? Aren't you about 8 weeks post-transplant? It should be safe to color your hair by now.

 

JW

[Mark H]

I've been nervous about coloring JW, so even tho I'm past the point where most doctor's feel its safe, I'm holding off a bit longer. I'm trying to hold out until nearly 3 months, so that I may actually have some significant growth to color.

 

mark

[MrJobi]

Hi there

 

I would personally stick to the big 3

 

Propecia, Minoxidil and Nizoral..

 

The other items are too expensive for a

"potential" result.. If it doesn't regrow hair, I don't care. Nizoral is just worth the price so it's risk is worth the small investment. My doc said CP have little validity.

[Guest Cousin_It]

So far I personally only use only Rogaine and Propecia, but for those who believe the copper peptides can be a useful addition to thier regime, a cheaper alternative would be American Crew Revitalize Solution, it contains the Procyte brand of copper, plus a number of additional additives such as Saw Palmetto, you can pick it up on eBay pretty cheap, 2 for $20, including shipping. This manufacturer also sells a matching Shampoo, Conditioner and concentrated Serum. Its way cheaper than the well know names, might be worth a try. I have a few bottles of this stuff, may try it down the line once my transplant grows in nicely.