Folligen - Graftcyte - Copper Peptides etc.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello everyone,

 

I've been hearing a lot about copper peptides by Mark H (Hi Mark...I'm sure you're reading this =P) so I've decided to do some research on copper peptides and the benefit it might have to hairloss sufferers. I must admit, the research does show some promise. I haven't seen anywhere in the research that copper peptides will regrow completely lost hair (though the folligen website points to this), but that it can increase the speed of a dormant follicle to the growing phase. It also seems that it might thicken the hair shafts, possibly creating a fuller appearance.

 

So has anyone used any copper peptide technology products. If so, what has your experience been? Have you noticed any difference by using the product and if so, what was the difference? Thicker appearance of hair? Faster Growth? New Growth? Anything?

 

Please post your experiences here for everyone's benefit. Thanks.

 

Bill

[Robert_]

Like I said in the other thread I used American Crew's copper peptides shampoo and conditioner for a little while but I dropped them because I am fond of my regular shampoo and conditioner. I may try folligen's cream when I get around to it.

 

 

I've looked into copper peptides periodically for the last few years. The science looks great, but there is just next to NO anectodal evidence that it actually does much to write home about. Perhaps if we get enough guys willing to participate in a little study of our own?

 

Anyone willing to try a copper peptide product for 6 months or so? I think if we got 8 or 10 guys to do it, we can possibly get some kind of notion of its efficacy.

 

-Robert

[Bill - Seemiller]

Well I know Mark H is in since he is already using it. I wouldn't hesitate...so count me in. I'll wait though until we get some more people interested in giving it a shot to see if it helps with anything. Of course, we have to consider variables...some use minox, some don't...some use Propecia, some don't, etc. I use Propecia but not minox.

 

Who else will participate in this study?

 

Bill

[Robert_]

I think it would depend on how long a minoxidil user has been using it. I've been on it for years so I'm not getting any growth benefit from it - only maintenance. I'm also going through a killer "fall shed" which I always get for some reason so I'd have to take that into consideration if I were to take part. We'd have to set up some guidelines. If anyone is interested in participating, reply to the thread! Let's get something going here!

 

-Robert

[Mark H]

I actually do have some professional anecdotal evidence, but I'm restricted from directly quoting.

 

I think the most important use for CP is in encouraging faster growth during that long desert that HT'ers like myself have to cross.

 

It is possible also that there is a synergistic relationship between Minox/propecia and CP, but most particularly with the former, since CP apparently helps open the follicle.

 

Finally...and this is based on nothing at all...I'm concerned that the exposure that I get from shampoo and conditioner is inadequate to provide significant benefit, which is why I'm getting the spray and applying about halfway between minox appications.

 

I used CP fotr the first 2 weeks post op, and the shampoo since then...and even tho I'm only six weeks, I've a hint that I'm starting to get early growth.

 

mark

[Robert_]

Mark,

 

I agree that the exposure that is granted from a shampoo and conditioner is not going to be ideal - that's why I ditched them so quickly too. I think that the cream or the spray would be the way to go.

 

I also question the concentrations and purity of something made available to consumers as opposed to the CP that was utilized in studies.

 

As a result of all this talk, I may go ahead and give it another try. Nothing to lose, right?

 

-Robert

[Mark H]

Yes, thats my perspective, nothing to lose. I can't imagine trying to rub in a cream though.

 

I'm looking for this spray to disappear into my scalp in a way minox liquid doesn't....we'll see.

 

your point of cp concentration in the product is important. perhaps after I receive it, i'll be able to quantify it and compare.

 

Certainly minoxidil would never be effective if taken only once a day in shampoo, so who knows?

[Robert_]

Originally posted by Mark H:

 

Certainly minoxidil would never be effective if taken only once a day in shampoo, so who knows?

 

This is true. However, this is where it gets complicated: is the absorption rate of CP with the delivery mechanisms used allowing it to penetrate at a quicker rate?

 

Hmm...looks like I'm going to have to do some research.

 

-Robert

[Mark H]

Hey Robert, I don't think I need to point out that I'm way out of my depth here. I do believe CP has real possibilities, because I'm reasonably good at vetting out the scams.

 

I'm glad you and a few others are on board with looking into this more carefully, because this board could well be doing the hair loss community a serious service in doing so.

 

mark

[Bill - Seemiller]

Interesting note about the shampoo and conditioner. Perhaps the spray is the way I'd go. The cream seems like it would be too thick. I'll participate in this...let me know what product you all want to try. I'd be a bit adverse the the cream because it appears like it would be messy and it probably wouldn't mesh well with areas where there's a good amount of hair.

 

Bill

[Mark H]

Well I have folligen spray coming out, and if its what I expect, then we can see whats in it, and maybe compare to research.

 

I'll also be able to see how it goes on. this should be a thin light spray very water like.

 

we'll see.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Well I'm confused...because the Folligen therapy spray doesn't seem to state that it adds copper peptides directly to the scalp. It's almost like it works directly with the cream or lotion from what I'm gathering...but then again, I could be wrong. Ugh...too many products. I actually emailed Dr. Hasson to see what he thinks of these products...just because I'm curious a professional's opinion. Also, since the therapy spray for both Folligen and Tricomin seem to contain some kind of alcohol, it may be too early for me to use it on my scalp anyway.

 

Bill

[Mark H]

I get my spray tomorrow, and I never would have ordered it if I'd seen any alcohol in it.

 

I'll take a close look when I get it and report. I too do not want any alcohol on my hair or skin, it does nothing good for it.

[Mark H]

Okay fellow suedo scientists...

 

I got the spray this am. Unfortunately it had NO ingredients list at all! Undeterred, I went back to the site, found the product I'd ordered.

 

Here is the information:

 

Folligen Solution Therapy Spray

 

Purified Water, Aloe Vera Gel, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Glycerin, Polysorbate-20, Allantoin, Cupric Sulfate, Diazolinydinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Herbal Fragrance.

 

Now the product description says it has copper peptides, but I don't know where they're hiding in the ingredients. I'm trying to get a live rep from the Folica folks where I bought it to give me some info on where the peptides are in the ingredient list, and if possible to even quantify it.

 

As you can see, there is no alcohol, or at least nothing that straight out appears to be.

 

More soon.

 

mark

[Mark H]

I got this response from folica...not entirely satisfying...

 

Mark -

 

To answer your question. Generally speaking, peptides are small

fragments of proteins. (And the proteins are the building blocks of

most living tissues including the hair folicle.) Certain kinds of

peptides have an avid affinity for copper, to which they bind very

tightly. The resulting compound consisting of a peptide and a copper

atom has become known as a copper peptide. It is these proteins that

are in the Foliigen Solution Spray. I am not able to confirm the amount

of copper peptides contained in the solution.

 

I can not tell you for sure if any of the ingredients specifically

contains the copper peptides or if they are simply added to the entire

solution. With regard to Alcohol, Folligen uses propylene glycol versus

alcohol as the delivery system to get the solution absorbed into the

scalp resulting in less redness and irritation.

 

I hope that this information is useful. If you have any further

questions please let our customer service department know.

 

Regards,

 

 

Richard BenBassett

Folica.com

[bayscholar]

Copper Peptides, have been shown to affect hair and scalp in the following ways:

"?? Increase blood flow to the hair follicle by stimulating new blood vessel formation

"?? Fuel the cells responsible for production of collagen and other proteins which are plentiful in the hair's growth phase, but not present during the shedding phase

"?? Relieve chronic inflammation at the site of the hair follicle, which appears to be a major contributor to the hair loss cycle. Copper Peptides can increase the rate at which skin heals dramatically, and are even used for accelerated healing of hair transplant

"?? Provide nutrition to the follicle producing faster growing hair with thicker hair shafts

"?? Restore scalp health and normal hair growth after hair transplants, dyes, permanent waving and hair straighteners

Is Copper Better Than Propecia?® for Blocking DHT Production?

Copper ion in the skin is more effective in inhibiting the type 1 form which is primarily producing the DHT that damages follicles and can be administered locally to the skin. Copper ion is a potent inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase, inhibiting both types of 5-alpha reductase (both type 1 and type 2) that produce DHT and is the only metal to do so. Copper ion inhibits (50% reduction in activity) type 1 alpha reductase at 1.9 micromolar (0.12 micrograms copper ion per milliliter) and type 2 alpha reductase at 19.2 microM (1.2 micrograms copper ion per milliliter). No other metal has these effects.

The application of copper-peptides may provide sufficient copper ion into the hair follicle area to block DHT production in the scalp. Metabolically active copper ion (that is, copper ion free to block 5-alpha reductase) in the human body exists at about 1 microgram per milliliter in the blood and less in the skin. While the uptake of ionic copper from copper-peptides applied to the scalp is very low, human experiments by Prof. John Sorenson (University of Arkansas) have found that they can raise copper ion levels in the skin to the effective level of 1 microgram per milliliter. Also Copper-peptides possess significant anti-inflammatory actions which may reduce

Personal Note:

 

I had problems with Rogaine in the past, it caused redness and irritation. I used the foam and sure enough within a week the old irritation and general hatred for the product and its maintenance returned. I use Tricomin spray therapy with CP twice a week before I go to bed I dunk my head in blue juice (joking but you get the point)....unlike Rogaine which makes your skin feel like crap, CP in the form of folligen or Tricomin..etc leaves your hair feeling better in fact the mornings after I apply the spray therapy I would notice a marked improvement in texture and feel. Also during the first few months after my HT it helped reduced redness in the recipient area from my observations.

 

My 2cents ??“ I really like the product...and if I find it again I will post a study the CP spray out performed Rogaine 2%.

[Mark H]

Bay, are you quoting someone's work? You don't say. Based on what I've read, the conclusions are stated a bit more strongly than I would think current research supports, but I could be wrong.

 

That said, I tend to believe them.

 

My understanding is that the foam Rogaine does not contain the irritants that the liquid does, and that is my personal experience as well, although it takes some experience to work with it for best results.

 

as noted above, the Folica guy couldn't even tell me which ingredient contains the copper peptides, but based on his description i'd go with the protein component, which according to the rules of ingredient listing is a very harge part of the solution's make up. That bodes well, but doesn't allow us to measure the product against anyone's research results.

 

mark

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hello everyone,

 

Interesting about your discussion with the company...doesn't seem to satisfying in my opinion. That's why I poked around the website for awhile...the therapy spray didn't seem to have copper peptides as an ingredient whereas their lotion (still liquid like) does have it listed. Good to know there is no alcohol in it. I may have been confusing it with another product by Folligen or another product altogether.

 

Either way...it just seems to me that, knowing what I know about the gimics and scams I've tried in the past, that most of these companies produce many products and it is typically unclear which one does what...Folligen may have some scientific backing to it...but then again, so does Revivogen. Personally, that did nothing for me and it was expensive. The mistake I made in the past, however, was to use it solely and unfortunately I never gave Propecia a try until I was 27 and already pretty far gone.

 

More information: Not that this determines that copper peptides aren't worth the effort, but I sent an email to Jotronic to see what Dr. Hasson's feel is on these products...and this was Joe's response below. Now keep in mind he was writing me in the context of using them right after an HT...so there is no basis here that says copper peptides isn't worth the effort in entirety.

 

"Dr. Hasson's current view on "healing" products is that they are a waste of time. Additionally, he and Dr. Wong feel that there is a potential for negative issues. If one of your grafts becomes infected then the products can spread this infection to other areas because when they are sprayed on they "run" across the scalp. Dry healing is best."

 

So I'm going to follow Dr. Hasson's advice and simply let things heal naturally. That being said...MAYBE I'll try copper peptides after the hair has grown...so maybe at about 6-8 months I'll give it a shot. But most of the products seem to be expensive and I'm not certain that it is worth the money. If I do attempt to use it, I would use it as an ADDITIONAL product like you are Mark.

 

Bill

[Mark H]

the therapy spray didn't seem to have copper peptides as an ingredient

 

Well the description clearly states it IS a copper peptide solution, and that is in fact the active ingredient even tho it isn't discreetly listed, so I agree their inconsistent in their labeling.

 

Now I have rec'd exactly the opposite advice you have Bill, so there you have it. I would add, that it is largely in reducing the telogenic phase that CP's are helpful, and therefore much more useful post HT, than post +1 year for example, although I could see uses for both.

 

I just used it for the first time a few minutes ago....kinda stings...makes my hair...what there is of it, a bit green. Thats okay, I only use it in the evening.

 

I'm using it directly in between minoxidil applications, so that Minoxidil gets more than 4 hours to work before CP's are added, then the second minox happens late at night more than 4 hours after CP's were applied.

 

I think I went a bit heavy on this first application. I'm going to be a little lighter on the pump tomorrow.

 

mark

[Bill - Seemiller]

More Information on Folligen:

 

(Ingredients according to onlyhairloss.com - If external link isn't allowed, let me know and I'll delete)

 

Folligen Lotion

 

Purified water, squalane, octyl palmitate, PEG-100 stearate (glycerol stearate + PEG-100 stearate), cetyl alcohol, copper peptides (hydrolyzed soy protein and copper chloride), stearic acid, saw palmetto oil, allantoin, polypropylene glycol, diazolinydinyl urea, methylparaben, propylparaben, herbal fragrance, tocopheryl acetate, retinyl palmitate, ergocalciferol

 

Folligen Therapy Spray

 

Purified Water, Aloe Vera Gel, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Glycerin, Polysorbate-20, Allantoin, Cupric Sulfate, Diazolinydinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Herbal Fragrance

 

Folligen Cream

 

Purified water, squalane, octyl palmitate, PEG-100 stearate (glycerol stearate + PEG-100 stearate), cetyl alcohol, copper peptides (hydrolyzed soy protein and copper chloride), stearic acid, saw palmetto oil, allantoin, polypropylene glycol, diazolinydinyl urea, methylparaben, propylparaben, herbal fragrance, tocopheryl acetate, retinyl palmitate, ergocalciferol

 

My Note: It seems that the Therapy spray is lacking the copper chloride which has been classified as a copper peptide in both the cream and lotion. I'm not sure exactly what that means...but there's some information. Buy all 3 of those products and you've spent almost $70.

 

Reviews about Lotion from follica.com (again if external link not permitted, I can remove):

 

Worst Review: 1 Star out of 5

 

"I am a female who has experienced hairloss since the age of 18 and I am now 26. I read good reviews about this stuff on Skinbiology.com, so I decided to give it a try. I didn't see any new growth but after using it for a few weeks (dime size amount, 4x a week at night) my scalp became very irritated and had a terrible burning sensation. During this time, I had some increase in hairloss. I stopped using this stuff immediately and after about a week, my scalp was back to normal. "

 

Best Review: 4 out of 5

 

"This product has made a big difference in my hair. I had some damage because of relaxers. It help to restore my hair and scalp back to normal"

 

Folligen Cream

 

Best Review: 5 out of 5 (note: it's hard to tell whether or not his good experience was because of folligen or minoxodil...maybe it's a combo)

 

"I've used this product (as well as the shampoo) for some time now in combination with 5% minoxidil. Good results, much less fallout, thicker regrowth. Not much hype and relatively inexpensive. Good stuff and worth a try. My only complaint is that it's a bit sticky, but choose your situation and that's not an issue"

 

Worst Review: 1 out of 5 (note: this may not tell us much either because it was used on and off)

 

"I've been using this product off and on for 5 years. I have been dissatisfied with my hair loss. So, I assume this product does not work (what a surprise...never would have guessed it would be snake oil!)..I'm being facetious, of course."

 

My Summary

 

Out of the few reviews I found on websites, a few reported that it helped thicken their hair...I did not read anything about regrowing new hair. A few reported a nicer feeling scalp and a few reported scalp irritation and yet others reported it did nothing for them.

 

Draw your own conclusion...but here is mine:

 

It seems to me that if you want to try it, give it a shot and see how it works for you...but DO NOT replace Propecia or Minox...I wouldn't anyway. Instead, use it as an additional product.

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Mark,

 

It's interesting how advice differs...I'm not sure what to say except feel free to follow the advice of your doc and I'll follow the advice of mine .

 

In the meantime...I still would like to know how the product works for you! I do not object to trying it eventually...but for now, I'll hang tight and heal naturally.

 

Any other experiences people want to share...I'd love to hear it!

 

Bill

[Mark H]

Bill, I do have serious concerns that the spray that I'm using is an appropriate formulation.

 

I ought to be able to find out what's in it, and how that compares to research results, which while limited are very positive. I weight that research far more than the anecdotal experiences mentioned...those are all over the place. You have to wonder if some of these people are drinking the stuff.

 

The point about CP not growing new hair is far from clear, it may or may not, but the strongest evidence I've seen is that it shortens Telogen.

 

As a side note, new research seems to point at the same thing for Minoxidil, although I know for a fact that it grew new hair at my hairline using 2 per cent years ago...something its not even spec'd to do.

 

Finally, I think the issue of cost is a chimera: if you spend up to $20,000 or more on your hair, 70 bucks to make it grow stronger or faster is completely irrelevant to the discussion, only the efficacy of the application matters.

 

I used CP the first 2 weeks post HT, and I've used the shampoo, and now Ive gone full metal jacket along with minox and Propecia. I'll be posting 2 month results soon...maybe we'll see a little early action.

 

I absolutely agree that minox and propecia are the front line soldiers.

 

mark h

[JakeVig]

Guys,

 

I thought I might chime in here as I have been a regular user of CP's for nearly 5 months. I also did much research into CP's before considering it apart of my haircare regime, basically there are a lot of articles with a positive tone similar to this:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Do-Copper-Peptide-Hair-Treatm...ally-Work?&id=186699

 

Researchers determined that the copper solutions applied to the scalp increased follicle size: rebuilt the blood supply to damaged follicles: increased melanin synthesis, necessary to keep hair from turning white: increased subcutaneous fat below the scalp, needed to produce thick healthy hair: lengthened the hair growth phase: inhibited the formation of DHT: repaired scalp damage; healed inflammation: and caused the scalp to thicken.

 

This all leads to a healthy head of hair.

 

Minoxidil (Rogaine) grows new fine "vellus" hair. Copper peptide solutions convert this fine hair into thicker, fuller, pigmented hair and it is suggested that both be substances be used in combination if you are trying to re-grow hair. The copper peptide has the added benefit of reducing the inflammation and itching caused by minoxidil.

 

I pretty much decided to include CP's into my regime just to help with the minoxidil itch - which I think it does. If it manages to also create healthier hair (which I actually believe there is some science behind it) than I consider that a bonus. I initially started with just the folligen solution spray but if your hair gets wet after you put it on it will have an unnatural and noticeable green colour. So now I only use Tricomin CP conditioner since I still had space in my regime for a good conditioner that was beneficial to my hair.

[Mark H]

Interesting contribution Jake. Based on your quote, it would appear that CP's will do everything but simonize my car.

 

I'm committed to continuing minox and propecia for as long as I live, the CP treatment right now is strictly post HT, that could change, but once my hair is long, this stuff is going to be difficult to apply without looking like I'm wearing 30 weight oil.

 

mark

[bayscholar]

Markh- my original post was from a study done by Dr.Loren Pickart, some how my ultra fast at work copy & past failed me I will add later to my original post.

 

Dr.Pickart, from my research the father of tricomin,folligen and graftcyte. Currently I use tricomin even though it seems to be out preformed by folligen from what I have read, the main reason is how it leaves my hair and scalp feeling. With that said I am interested if any one uses the folligen lotion and if so what how they liked it.

 

this is the info I mentioned about tricomin vs minox2%

 

(Skin-Repair/Hair Growth Agents - Tricomin

 

Tricomin Solution Follicle Therapy Spray is sold by ProCyte Corporation (See www.procyte.com). It is another copper-peptide complex that stimulates hair growth and was invented by Dr. Loren Pickart in 1987 and, in a sense, is an earlier version of the approach used in Folligen. Tricomin had its genesis in attempts to create Iamin molecules with an increased solubility in, and retention by, wounds and other tissues. To achieve this purpose, the non-polar or "fatty" character of the molecule was synthetically increased by either chemically linking fatty acids to Iamin or adding amino acid residues to Iamin which had a more "fat-like" nature. While such "fatty" Iamins worked well for wound-healing, they also markedly increased hair growth around experimental wounds.

 

Tricomin has demonstrated effectiveness for hair growth stimulation in placebo-controlled clinical trials and in direct comparisons with minoxidil. Tricomin produces slightly more hair growth than minoxidil and produces thicker hair shafts than minoxidil. Unfortunately, the solution into which Tricomin has been recently formulated gives evidence of inhibiting hair growth. Users often report scalp irritation, itching and flaking. Tricomin Solution contains high levels of ethyl alcohol, detergent and also contains blue dye, all of which may irritate the scalp. This may reduce its overall hair growth effects.

 

Tricomin vs. Minoxidil - Change in number of terminal hairs in tested area

Type of Treatment Treatment Group Placebo Control Group

Minoxidil 2% after 4 months

(nonvellus hair count) +73 +31

Tricomin 2.5% after 3 months

(nonvellus hair count) +97 -51 (inhibition of hair growth)

 

Copper-Peptides to Reduce Minoxidil/Retinoic Acid Irritation

 

Copper-peptide (in products such as Folligen, Iamin, and Protect & Restore may be used to reduce minoxidil/retinoic acid irritation. During irritation and inflammation, the skin is damaged by immune cells that release toxic oxygen radicals into the damaged area. The purpose of these oxygen radicals is to kill invading bacteria after wounding but often the oxygen radicals are released in the absence of any bacteria.

 

The use of cortisone and corticosteroids to reduce skin irritation is not recommended. Corticosteroids act by killing the immune cells to stop oxygen radical release but this also kills the immune cells that release the skin repair growth factors and hence stops skin repair which ultimately leads to a thinned and damaged skin.

 

Copper-peptides, on the other hand, directly detoxify the oxygen radicals. They also transfer copper to superoxide dismutase (SOD), the skin's primary anti-oxidant protein, which activates the skin's SOD which further increases the removal of oxygen radicals. Also, the copper-complexes have been shown to strongly stimulate the skin's repair systems and improve healing and skin renewal. The above mentioned nickel allergy study demonstrated both the anti-inflammatory and skin repair properties of copper-peptides. (Zhai et al 1999))