Donor hair max out

[max1010]

OK, here is the question..

I went in my consultation recently ( and will be having my procedure 12/5), and after reading Jotronic story, I ask on a scale to 1 to 10 - what is my donor area max? the Doctor mentioned 6 or 7. But, Jotronic mentioned his was only a 3.. Jotronic was able to harvest like 8000 g's. and he looks great.. Even on HTN I watched Dr feller (video) and he comments on it's all about the donor area. Obviously this is important in HT's. I know hair characteristics plays a role in this and all. What can I take from this? And, some of the regulars here, like Bill, Pat, Mrjb, NN, etc.. what can you estimate yours is on a scale from 1 to 10?

BTW; Nicnito 10000 G's WTF?

[Bill - Seemiller]

Max,

 

I'm not sure I am following about rating donor area max on a scale of 1-10.

 

I assume you mean by "max", you are referring to the greatest number of follicular unit grafts that can be extracted from your donor?

 

I also assume that "10" is a very high number and "1" is a very low number.

 

If that's the case, I'd hardly call JoTronic a "3" since that would imply that a "10" could get 3+ times the amount of grafts as Joe which would add up to 24,000 grafts or so.

 

Please clarify and I'll be happy to offer what I can to this thread.

 

Bill

[thanatopsis_awry]

I think Max is seeking info on how important donor area is, and what people's donor areas have been like, and what kind of results they have been able to achieve; how many grafts (apporox)might he be able to harvest; what can be be achieved based off of various types of donor area....and the 1-10 scale is just a relative (prolly' too general) term in gauging how fruitful an HT can be w/ regard to donor viability.

 

What I don't know is what factors make up the numerical rating. Jotronic is a "3" -- meaning his donor charachteristics are not obv amazing, yet he was able to harvest 8g's and look really good....does this mean he had lots of donor hair, but poor thickness; or poor quantity but great quality;and then via H&W's skill he was able to get amazing results despite a less than stellar donor area...?

[hairbank]

I think you're talking about a couple of different things.........

 

First.........numbers. How many grafts does the average person have?? I'm guessing around 7000-8000. NicNitro's density is phoenomenal.......I think they said he even has another 5000 donor grafts left.

 

Second........hair characteristics. I remember Joe's hair, when he was consulted by Mike Ferko at H & W, was rated a 3 out of 10 on donor hair characteristics. I believe this refers to whether it is coarse, fine, curly............how much of an "illusion" of density it will provide.

 

Hope this helps.

[max1010]

Hi,

Sorry for the confusion. this is what I mean..

I thought this was interesting.. I'm just quoting from Jotronic's web site...

 

"2.) My donor hair is not the best. According to Mike, on a scale of 1 to 10, my donor hair is about a 3.

 

What I did have in my favor was a very elastic scalp. This would allow more donor area to be removed to get the larger sessions."

 

A 3 on a scale from 1 to 10, and he was able to harvest 8000 g's!

[gazzasgoin2]

When you discuss donor characteristics what elements exactly does this include? I would think of the following:

 

Colour (least hair to scalp contrast the better)

Thickness (the thicker the better)

Laxity (more laxity, more grafts)

Density (higher donor density more grafts)

 

If you could have only say 2 of the above what would be the most preferable characteristics for the most natural outcome and coverage?

 

Jo for example has had a great outcome with his laxity and hair colour likely to be the main reason.

[max1010]

OK Gazza,

 

Let's go with this.. I have color working in favor, light to medium brown. But, I have fine hair, which, I think doesn't, or will need more sessions.. Laxity, I think good. Density good to very good. And I'll mention high sides and high rear (less coverage), which could change. I'm 39 yrs old.

 

So Jo has laxity and he got 8000 + g's. Hair color has nothing to do with his graft count..

[gazzasgoin2]

Max, hair colour has nothing to do with graft count as you say. Though with your light brown hair you will need less grafts to acheive the same look as someone with dark hair and pale skin. The fact you have good density ans laxity sounds to me as if you are sorted.

 

There are probably a number of combinations of characteristics that make for optimal results.

 

The one I find confusing is whether having thick course hair is infact a benefit? The best results I have seen are from light coloured, medium thick hair rather than wirey hair. So can wirey hair in fact be a problem as it may look pluggy unless transplanted in extremely high density?

[max1010]

Hi Gazza,

 

I hear what you are saying... I just think this is a good subject. I guess i'm comparing and would think for example Bill would have the maximum grafts ( like a 10 on a scale from 1 to 10) from his pictures. So I'm guessing he must have a good reserve. Niconitro on the other hand must be a mutant.

 

I hope I'm sorted.

I have read and think thick dark wiry course hair does you no favors, unless you it's dense.. I even read on hairlosshelp a guy with dark thick wiry hair and good HT ( from H&W) was spotted at his work of having HT work done.

 

I still think it's hard to believe people have used up like 8000 g's. I'm thinking the average person has 5000 G's.

 

Thanks gazza, I just think this is a good subject nobody talks about.

[gazzasgoin2]

Max, no problem, its an interesting and worthwhile subject. Hopefully some of the more experienced guys and Doctors will add their thoughts too.

 

The envelope continues to be pushed by the very best Docs whether it be with FUSS or FUE or a combination. So the maximum available donor on the average patient is most likely to now be closer to 7k or 8k than 5k IMO.

[max1010]

Thanks gazza,

 

I'm going on for my procedure 12/5 and have researched the hell out of the latest techniques.

I think i'm just comparing too much. For example i think Glock08 got amazing results from one session of 4300 g's, full head (and doesn't need another session IMO). Then I read here and other hair loss sites people using up like 1500 to 3000 g's for 1 cm lowed of the hair line. That's for 1 cm! I guess it's all up to Doctor? But, still I would like to hear from more posters here, on the capacity of their donor area and their results. Because let's face it when it come to HT it's all about the donor area!

 

Thanks again..

[spoon]

This conversation is meaningless unless you include the hairs-per-graft and how many hairs per square cm you'll need to get the look you want.

 

Techniques have changed. But technique or no technique, graft estimates are being inflated by a certain clinic in Toronto. Graft counts are being inflated by cutting smaller grafts.

[max1010]

Spoon,

 

Are you talking about FUE?

[spoon]

Originally posted by max1010:

Spoon, Are you talking about FUE?

Not specifically. What I'm saying is that you shouldn't get too caught up in the "number of grafts" because that doesn't mean much anymore. It USED to mean quite a bit when the average number of hairs per graft was generally between 2.1 and 2.3. Lately however you can look at the cases presented and see for yourself that hairs per graft can be around 1.5 or 1.6, all the way up to over 2.5.

 

Let's put it this way: let's suppose you have 18,000 HAIRS available for transplant. In one clinic, that could be 7,826 total grafts (2.3 hairs per graft). In another clinic, that could be 11,250 grafts (1.6 hairs per graft).

 

Your donor didn't change at all, but your graft count is 44% higher in the second clinic because your hairs-per-graft count is 44% lower.

 

Your question is how good is your donor - a doctor has told you what he thinks and without seeing it, I can't really offer an opinion. From my own observations (and I have observed a lot), it is a cruel irony that as your norwood increases, your donor amount and donor quality both decrease. In other words the guys that could most use hair transplantation have the least donor to work with, and their donor is generally thin anyway. It's rare to see a NW6 with thick donor (again, my observations). Laxity is a pretty big deal also but it's less important because you can somewhat influence it by doing the exercises. Unfortunately no amount of exercises is going to increase your donor density or hair quality.

[gazzasgoin2]

Spoon,

 

I'm assuming your point re hairs per grafts is based largely on the toronto clinics recent procedures? I think this is also the same clinic Max is talking about 3k grafts in the 1cm hairline.

 

Leaving them aside and assuming we are talking about an ethical clinic then they should all be averaging c2.2 hairs per graft. In this case the remaining variable is patients hair characteristics.

[spoon]

Originally posted by gazzasgoin2:

I'm assuming your point re hairs per grafts is based largely on the toronto clinics recent procedures?

 

No I'm not talking about them specifically in the hairs-per-graft context. That clinic has published inflated estimates, but they aren't attaching any hair counts anyway so the inflated estimates are also meaningless in addition to being complete fiction. As is the claim that FUE surgery is non-surgical. But I digress.

 

Leaving them aside and assuming we are talking about an ethical clinic then they should all be averaging c2.2 hairs per graft.

They should be but they don't. Like I said you can look at the numbers yourself. Some strip cases posted on this board show less than 2 hairs per graft (as low as 1.5 or 1.6), some show more than 2.3 hairs per graft. So until clinics tell you how many hairs they are talking about transplanting, it's pointless to focus so much time and energy on measuring donor quality by the number of grafts you can get. It is more sensible to try to estimate the hairs per cm2 density you can achieve and the coverage you can obtain with varying hair densities across your head to determine how much or little a transplant will help you.

 

There's one other piece to the puzzle and it's the shape of the strip. If a doctor is protecting against a possible future NW7 then there's a very specific and somewhat restrictive shape that the scar has to take. Look at the next few NW7's you see and imagine what their strip would have to look like to avoid being exposed by recession to see what I mean. In my opinion doctors should plan for NW7 in more cases than not.

[max1010]

Spoon,

 

i agree with you, but if your hair is fine vs thick then it would be different. You would need less per cm2 if you had thick hair vs fine hair.

 

So I guess grafts and Hair count don't mater. it comes down to hair thickness and hair per cm2..

[spoon]

Originally posted by max1010:

Spoon,

 

i agree with you, but if your hair is fine vs thick then it would be different. You would need less per cm2 if you had thick hair vs fine hair.

 

This is absolutely true. When you spoke to the doctor and he assessed your donor on a scale of 1 to 10, your "score" would have taken into account the thickness of your hair.

 

So I guess grafts and Hair count don't mater. it comes down to hair thickness and hair per cm2..

This is not what I'm trying to say. These things certainly matter, it's just very important to understand how many hairs you're getting when you get a quote in grafts. Your first post that started this topic referenced graft counts. What I'm trying to explain is that you really need to know is this: if you hypothetically went to different clinics and each individual clinic transplanted the exact same number of HAIRS, would those clinics also transplant the exact same number of GRAFTS? If so, then you have apples and apples. If not, you have a fruit salad.

 

Hairs are absolute, grafts are interpreted.

[TheHairLossCure]

Perhaps Jotronic said his donor area (not donor hair) was poor. What I mean is that he, unfortunately, had scarring from prior work. As a result, I am sure this compromised the amount of hair that could be harvested during his repair surgery. That being said, the quality of his hair and the flexibility of his scalp may have been better than average.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Great discussion guys.

 

The number of grafts/hairs available per hair transplant patient is a hot topic of discussion. Read more about how many grafts are available for hair transplantation?

 

In a nutshell, I'd say that the hair transplant result depends upon:

 

1. the hair restoration physician's ability to perform state of the art hair transplantation

2. the available donor supply (dependent upon donor hair density and scalp elasticity)

3. the balding area to be covered

4. the amount of native hair left

5. the risk of future hair loss

6. denstiy of the transplanted hair verses coverage of the balding area

7. hair characteristics (gazza gave a great description above on how hair color and caliber play a significant role in the cosmetic appearance of a hair transplant)

 

Bill

[max1010]

Thanks Bill,

 

I wish some Dr's would have chimed in here... I think good Dr's can tell right away if your donor area is great or poor. Never mind graft and hair count. Just looking good DR's can tell...

[Bill - Seemiller]

max,

 

I suspect some doctors might chime in eventually on this thread since this thread was only just opened today.

 

But I agree with you. A qualified hair transplant physician will be able to make a proper evaluation of your donor hair on inspection.

 

Bill

[NervousNelly]

I agree with all that Spoon had to point out but also agree that a good physician can point out a good donor immediately. Hell, an amateur like myself can see what is a good versus bad donor.

[max1010]

NN,

 

I didn't want to say.. But hell I think can point out a good donor away.

[gazzasgoin2]

Im still unsure as to whether having extremely course hair is an advantage or not? Anyone know?

 

I know Dr. Feller for example always say that 1 thick hair is better than 2 thin hairs for HT's. That said, I have seen a number of cases with patients who have dark course hair and the results can be unnatural and almost pluggy, even with FUT.

 

I agree completely that the number of hairs shifted is a more accurate measure than number of grafts. However, this needs to be taken in the context of the area being transplanted. For the hairline it will be mostly 1's whilst the vertex and crown will be transplanted with larger FU groupings. This could explain the different hair counts spoon mentions.