Post Operative Care Products

[hairtech_]

Does anyone have any hard data of the post-op shampoos, sprays, gels, etc.? I mean in terms of comparing them, the different healing times that the products are providing? Any issues. Any product that stands out?

[hairtech_]

Does anyone have any hard data of the post-op shampoos, sprays, gels, etc.? I mean in terms of comparing them, the different healing times that the products are providing? Any issues. Any product that stands out?

[Bill - Seemiller]

hairtech_

 

I do not, however...

 

I don't think anyone really can...simply because you have to take into consideration a few other variables:

 

The variables of individual physiology:

 

1. How quick does a particular person heal?

2. Is the patient a bleeder?

3. Skin color? (may impact appearance or lack thereof of redness/pinkness)

 

The variables of the chosen physician/clinic

 

1. Tools used (tools to remove donor area, tools to make recipient incisions - custom blades - what size? needles?)

2. Techniques used (Strip/FUE?)

 

The variables of the surgery...

 

1. Graft/hair count?

2. Length/width of strip taken

 

THEN finally, one can consider the products...

 

All that to say...

 

I personally don't believe that healing time is expedited MUCH by any of these products, even though many like to believe that it is.

 

Personally, I like Aloe because it helps soothe the area and is good for dry and/or irritated skin. But I have no empirical data that it's better than other products out there.

 

Bill

[hairtech_]

I disagree with you emphatically. Seriously, if you really think about the healing of the recipient areas in a general sence. One could hypothesis a way to... oh... let's see... ah yes, "feeding" the grafts a small dose of electrolytes especially glucose to to "hold" them over until circulation is re-established which occurs in days. And hey maybe an anti-oxidant or two, to attempt to protect vulnerable grafts from free=radical damage. How about natural enzymes? Yes, this might decrease bacterial growth from excessive scabbing or trapped bacteria. Enzymes could help to slowly digest the scabs. And since one could hypothesis that this mixture needs to be delivered in a water based or saline based solution, then that would help keep the grafts hydrated. Aloe could be added also. I like aloe too falsc.

 

Now if one considers a post-op spray that has a few if not all of these indredients, then that person might deduce the following potential outcomes: If a chemist can properly compound such a formula in a safe spray form... If used properly by the patient meaning frequency from the time they either step into or out of the HT clinic... Then I would have to say that there WILL be a greater chance, in a general pool of HT patients, that healing times may decrease. And decrease significantly enough to raise an eyebrow or two. And with that decrease might very well keep a few of them from shedding first.

 

Consider "healing" of an individual as a relative variable to that individual's normal length of healing time. Then that statement alone cuts most of your variables mentioned out of the healing factor.

 

What in general do we know about the length of time it takes for a typical patient's grafts to fully heal with a minimal post-op protocol. 10 to 14 days on average comes to mind. And during this time period, the graft first has to wait several hours while a fibrin clot forms and anchors the graft so that angiogenesis can initiate capillary re-growth to the graft which by that time is already starved, ischemic, dehydrated, exposed to oxidative stress, UV, and free-radicals.

 

I agree with you that there are a few companies that claim certain outcomes. And this is why I wanted to kick up a discussion about post operative solutions and data from first hand experiences. It is an important topic and I hope others respond to this. Aloe... yeah it is good also.

[hairtech_]

I am surprized that no one has much feed back on this topic.

[Guest]

Personally, I think once the transplanted follicles are firmly seated in about 3 days average, they dont need to be "Fertilized".

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

I have spoken with a couple docs and experimented with these products during my 3 HT's.. Many say there is little benefit to these products

 

I think all of these Graftcyte sprays and post op products don't work.. I can tell you most recentlyI used Aloe vera shampoo (50%) I got from a health food store and this seems to have worked better than anything..

 

The key point is to keep your donor and recepiant area's clean.. Yes, you can use speicalized products for this but trust me from personal experience.. There was no difference for me except my wallet got smaller

[the B spot]

I found my post-operative situation using Graftcyte was markedly better than using the diluted solution I received in session 1.

 

The combination of shampoo, conditioner, cold compress, and concentrated spray reduced post-op redness and in general promoted over-all healing in the donor and recipient areas.

 

Both of my sessions were larger and relatively similar in size, so I have a pretty fair comparision model to use, especially since the same Dr. and staff worked on me both times.

 

Take Care,

J

[Bill - Seemiller]

hairtech_

 

You seem to disagree often without thought.

 

If you read my message again, I can't see how you can POSSIBLY think about the healing of the recipient area in a general sense when you are referring to HARD data.

 

Additionally, you OFTEN discount personal physiology as an important factor in determining healing times, surgical risks, etc.

 

The ONLY way to elimate some of the above variables is to compare apples to apples which means:

 

I can only compare my OWN surgeries IF I went to the same doctor (assuming they still use the same tools/techniques) and received a SIMILAR number of grafts.

 

Consider "healing" of an individual as a relative variable to that individual's normal length of healing time.

 

 

And how do you propose we deal with the variable of comparing one individual's physiology to anothers? And the "normal length of healing time" needs to be discussed in relation to the wound that needs to be healed. A skin abrasion is going to heal much faster than a deep wound that needs sutures, etc.

 

try to remember that you asked for HARD DATA...NOT OPINIONS. If you asked for opinions, my answer would have been different.

 

If you asked for opinions, I could give you a list of products that I feel that CAN be helpful.

 

Aloe

Graftcyte

Vitamin E

Emu Oil

 

In my experience, I've used Aloe and Vitamin E. I personally liked Aloe better because of the soothing effect. I believe it did help with itchiness and post operative redness a bit.

 

But...none of these products are necessary in order for things to heal properly...that was my point. They might help speed things up...but without considering the above variables, one cannot provide hard data. Hard data suggests researched studies.

 

Bill

[MrJobi]

Hi B spot

 

For an accuarate comparison you would haved to use the same post op care products not cotaining the active ingredients..

 

I agree wholeheartedly, post op care is essential especially the cold compresses.

HOWEVER, this can be done with traditional brands and items as opposed to the 200 dollar products sold..

 

I think it was your excellent post op care that resulted in your recovery, not the specific products

[hairtech_]

hairtech_

 

You seem to disagree often without thought.

 

Bill. Not without thought. It took you two weeks to reply and that tells me much about what sorts of thought processes you have. You are missing my point everytime. I am not being arrogant in in that your reply (in my opinion)was definitely without "thought" on the initial reply to the beginning of this thread. Doctors send patients home with post-op care products for reasons that they believe in. Remember... they are doctors, and maybe their medical knowledge of human physiology makes them what they are... doctors. Maybe aloe, isn't enough. Anyway...

 

Since everyone gave their opinion I want to give some input that other clinics do and see what you guys think.

 

Jon Devroye in Belgium has an intersting post op care practice. He makes the patient spray the grafted area every 20 minutes for 24 hours. No matter how tired the patient gets, he/she must continue to spray. And Devroye only uses saline. I think it is to keep the grafts hydrated.

 

Bosley... kind of scary here, but it is what they do. They ask that the patient not was the head for three days. And after that they can use head and shoulders or one of their own follicle sprays. The point is, they want the head to be dry post op period.

 

PAI uses graftcyte but in an interesting way. After the surgery and right before they leave, they spray graftcyte onto the recipient area, and then use a cool hair dryer which freezes or fixes the graftcye like hairspray. The grafts are kind of glued in, if you will.

 

Cole uses Haircycle, which is a biotin based spray similar to graftcyte but only in the way it is packaged. It was created by Truett Bridges, MD. The recipient area is sprayed once per hour for multiple days.

 

Cooley uses graftcyte.

 

Rose uses Saline.

 

Harris brings the patient back for an initial wash but does not use post op products.

 

MHR uses folligen spray. I think that is a proprietary formulation. I believe they also dont want to wash the head for a day or two.

 

I have not seen the graftcyte compress in a couple of years.

 

 

"The combination of shampoo, conditioner, cold compress, and concentrated spray reduced post-op redness and in general promoted over-all healing in the donor and recipient areas"

 

B-spot,

 

You bring up an interesting point and I have also seen similar results with haircycle concerning post-op redness, etc.

 

I wish we could get hard data or start a thread and bring patients reviews of products used. We cannot say that nothing works until we get more feedback. What are your thoughts?

[TheHairLossCure]

Having worked for many doctors, many of whom are recommended by this community (Rose, Deyroye, Cooley), it would seem you have a somewhat interesting perspective on post-op care. Have you discussed the rational for the various approaches with any of the doctors that employ them? Do you find that adherence to one approach over the other seems to be based on personal experience, independent studies, suitability based on the sort of procedure being done, etc?

[hairtech_]

Thank you for your comment and quetion. Devroyes rationale is that hydration is important. Coles, as well as Mwamba's rationale is also hydration and that is based primarily derived from the fact that that clinic before haircycle used saline spray every hour post op. The brainchild inventor of Haircycle... Truett Bridges, MD however performed research into what natural products would provide certain results around issues, i.e. "redness", scab reduction, protection of grafts from oxidation, etc.

 

PAI uses the graftcyte to "fix" the grafts so they won't move post op.

 

I have to go now. We have a large case of 4000 by FUT and I won't be able to post until late.

[Bill - Seemiller]

hairtech_

 

It's quite presumptious of you to know my thought processes. Once again, you draw the wrong conclusion. The two weeks it took me to reply was because I've been very busy helping patients in other threads...I don't have nearly as much time to debate pointless rhetoric with you. Your arrogance is astounding...and oh...just because you start your statement with "I am not being arrogant", doesn't mean you aren't.

 

My initial reply to yours was very well thought out. The fact that you used the words "hard data" shows that you don't really even know what you were asking. Do you even know what hard data is? Are you a researcher? I'm not, but I understand scientific principles that state one must draw conclusions based on real findings in a controlled environment.

 

Doctors send patients home with post-op care products for reasons that they believe in. Remember... they are doctors, and maybe their medical knowledge of human physiology makes them what they are... doctors.

 

I do not dispute that...but belief in a product isn't the same as empirical evidence. Besides, how do you account for the difference in "beliefs" of various doctors? Some belief in a "wet" healing, while others believe in a "dry" healing. I've chosen 3 different doctors, all of which, recommended different products (or no products).

 

You asked patients for empiriacle evidence (hard data), when you should be asking that question to doctors. Perhaps any doctors who are also researchers could give you what you are looking for. Certainly, you don't know, which is why you are asking the question.

 

Ok...so enough of this...let me say this. If I've missed the initial point of your thread, please do state it again using the proper words.

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

P.S.

 

B Spot obviously was using very similar logic I was. His quote below.

 

Both of my sessions were larger and relatively similar in size, so I have a pretty fair comparision model to use, especially since the same Dr. and staff worked on me both times.

 

He recognized that in order to make a fair comparison, he had to stick to the scope of his experience, recognizing that he used the same doctor and a had a similar session size. Personal physiology as a variable can be ruled out because he is referring only to himself.

 

Next time...narrow the scope of your question or be more specific as to what you really want to know.

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

Hairtech_

 

I've also asked you several times to state in your signature, at the very least the current clinic you are working for. I prefer that you also post a list of doctors that you have worked for. However, I have just gotten a response from Pat on this:

 

Please let HairTech know that if he does not divulge his current clinic, as required by our forum terms of service, his posting privileges will be revoked.

 

Please understand...it is for the sake of the community that this information be public knowledge and be in your signature.

 

Bill

[hairtech_]

Well I am sorry that you and I don't see eye to eye Bill. I think deep down we both strive to find better solutions for helping hairloss victims. Maybe we both have the same goal and we just need to get along.

 

Anyway, I cannot account for the many differences of the healing times but I try to look at it in a scientific way and don't just assume anything. I need hard data, soft data, or patient feedback. We got one such info from B spot.

 

As for my signature, I will add names the next time I post. I had to wait to make sure one particular doctor was hiring me fulltime. I don't mind adding names to my signature, it just would have been better if you would have been more professional about it by asking me in private. Instead you picked un-opportune times to bash, add all kinds of shady comments and speculations. Nevertheless no harm done. I hope we get feedback on the post op products.

[Bill - Seemiller]

hairtech_,

 

I can agree to disagree with you...I have no problem with that. Your approach could have been different and this argument never would have taken place...simple as that.

 

Your second paragraph was well stated...I agree wholeheartedly. Patient feedback, hard data, and soft data are all helpful agents to determine what hair products work and don't work, which is better, etc.

 

Regarding your signature...I did ask you publicly to do so yes. Whether or not you found it disrespectful, I think it was important for people reading your posts to see publicly that you work for a clinic - hence my publicly asking you to follow the forum rules. I have asked others to do this in the past, and they had no problem with it. The fact that you were so resistant looked bad and made it seem that you had some sort of hidden agenda.

 

You are now somehow sounding cooperative (which is good), though you refused me when I asked the first time. Perhaps you are cooperating now because Pat is involved? It should have not come to threats of having your posting privleges revoked for you to follow the rules. If you truly are here to help people, you should have no problem following the rules. Upstanding members like JoTronic and Janna list who they work for, and no credibility is lost.

 

If you are going to accuse me of something, I must ask you to provide the proof. When did I "bash" you, make "shady comments" and "speculations" about you?

 

I'll be looking for the doctor list in your signature.

 

Cheers,

 

Bill

[MrJobi]

It is a must for those working for Doctors to post their identity. This is essential to being objective. By the same token, I feel it is improtant for the poster to list his surgeries and the doctor(s) who performed it .. This way everyone reading gets an accurate view of that person's personal creditability and affiliations

 

Again, it goes back to providing the users of this forum with unbiased information.. They can draw conclusions for themselves.

[hairtech_]

I have asked others to do this in the past, and they had no problem with it. The fact that you were so resistant looked bad and made it seem that you had some sort of hidden agenda.

 

Sometimes there are legitimate reasons for not doing what you ask. And the manner at which you asked created the "hidden agenda" that was unnecessary. As a matter of fact, one of the posters here wrote other persons questioning my background with certain physicians... which resulted in a confirmation of who I am. If you had asked me privately, after my refusal then I would have explained my reasons and now I can publically do so at my descretion. Not to dis-respect the great Pat Hennessey, but I'd rather be banned than to do something forcefully and especially when all allegations were untrue.

 

Anyway, I decided to take a full-time position with Dr. James Harris, MD. I had to sit and chat with him to make sure he would not mind that I continue to be unbiased in my posts and continue to state facts of my experiences in other clinics. He stated that he had no problem with my wishes and that conversation occured yesterday in Colorado. No I feel comfortable listing the docs I can provide information about. You see, Harris is trying to get the FUE word out to patients and doctors. He will hold several upcoming workshops, provide research , and do so in an open manner. He believes in spreading new technologies instead of hoarding them. That way more patients can be helped through physician and technician training and awareness.

 

Going forward... Lets move on and let's stir up information exchange and we all can help and learn from each other.

 

I need more feedback on post op products. When I was at Coles, I took notice on the healing times and other significant values when Haircycle was introduced. And believe me when I say this... I am a skeptic 10 times over, but when you notice over and over patients saying the same thing without asking then one realizes that this might be significant.

 

So far B-spot stated noticible changes when using graftcyte.

 

Why cannot we discuss these findings together. It is a worthy topic based on helping graft survival rates, decreasing iching, inflammation, oxidative stress protection, hydration of grafts. But is it?

[Bill - Seemiller]

hairtech_

 

Last point: In my experience, it is only those with a hidden agenda who refuse to list their employed clinic.

 

Anyway...it's time to move foward...So I'll just say this...thank you for following the rules from this point forward.

 

Bill

[hairtech_]

In my experience, it is only those with a hidden agenda who refuse to list their employed clinic.

 

In my experience, not everyone that refuses to list their employed clinic have hidden agendas and one who waits for more information, is better off so no one is wrongfully accused of the hidden agenda.

 

Just joshing but in jest of course.

 

Now on to the thread topic. What do you think about natural dht inhibitors, antioxidants, and other compounds that help healing? Does anyone have an opinion?

[the B spot]

Hairtech-- I have been trying to get Dr. Harris to share his patient photos with us for some time now.

 

I have often recommended him due to some very high praise from people I trust.

 

I want to see some donor pics, would like to know the size of the instrumentation he uses, session sizes he can do in a single sitting, etc.... I know he uses a two handed approach, so I want to see some results, as do many others.

 

If Dr. Harris wants to promote fue and his technique he has the PERFECT vehicle RIGHT HERE on this forum.

 

Could you PLEASE pass on my message to him?

 

I know Pat is very busy, so if he has pics he would like to post, information to share, myself or Bill would be more than willing to put them up.

(sorry Bill, but your roped into this as well!)

 

I really feel that Dr. Harris is on to something, but without his cooperation online, others have made a name for themselves doing average work at best.

 

Take Care,

J

[hairtech_]

B-spot,

 

I completely agree with you. Yes, a colleague of mine also was asking the same questions. Dr. Harris said he would be happy to provide pictures and we discussed this last Friday. I will send him this link for you so that he can see what folks are asking.

 

As for the instrumentation... Concerning FUE. He uses between 0.8mm and 1.0mm sharp punch to score the surface, then he follows that with his "dull" punch. The key is that he only wants to score through the dermis. The dull punch protects the bulbs upon pushing into the adipose. Hence, the safe approach. After the graft is punched, a tech immediately extracts the graft, places it in Plasmalyte A holding solution, and finally a microscope tech. checks the graft for its viability/transection counts/etc. At the moment... and this will change in the short future, he can perform around 1000 per day. If it calls for 3000 grafts, then he spans it across multiple days. Pretty much standard practice. Again this will change in the near future.

 

"I really feel that Dr. Harris is on to something, but without his cooperation online, others have made a name for themselves doing average work at best."

 

It is not that he is purposely uncooperative. He says he just doesn't like getting caught up with forum drama... you know... like we do. Not that he does not care... it is not his forte. He is busy with FUE research, writing the second edition of his book on HT (which involves defining FUE across the board) and is involved in a new technology that is entering a second phase of trials. He also has a family that he goes home to and puts work down.

 

The thing is, he did not ask that I post for him. He said if I wanted to, that would be great. So of course I am happy to post things about our surgeries and will begin to provide you Bspot/Bill/mrb/ etc pictures ASAP.

[Bill - Seemiller]

B Spot,

 

I don't mind helping if I'm needed bro. I personally would like to see some patient photos from Dr. Harris as well, so let me know if/how I can be of help.

 

Cheers guys!

 

Bill