After my first consultation

[NervousNelly]

Good post Gorpy. I believe you are sincere in your statements and your request is a simple one.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Nervous,

 

Perhaps I misinterpreted. I'm glad we are on the same page. Interesting concept about fees being based on incisions...but you have to remember...the number of incisions equals the number of grafts whether they are split or not, so it's virtually the same thing

 

Joe,

 

Thanks for your post. I hope that clears up a lot of the misconceptions some people have regarding your clinic and sub-dividing of FUs. What you said makes sense...that some FUs are split occasionally for SOME people...and that all clinics do this. Certainly this makes sense if one doesn't have enough 1 hair FUS to create a hairline, but has an over abundant supply of 3s and 4s.

 

Gorpy,

 

I also appreciate your post and your questions. I am/was not aware that a tech from H&W said that they don't do 3s...perhaps there was some miscommunication? Since Joe already stated that they DO do 3s and 4s since it's a naturally occuring FU, I can only assume somewhere down the pike there has been a misunderstanding or miscommunication. I'll await Joe's response on that one.

 

Regarding your number 3, however, I think Joe responded to that above when he said:

 

"No, it does not indicate as you seem to think. You have to know how we classify our grafts to understand what Dr. Hasson was saying. When we list out our graft counts we itemize singles, doubles and "bigs" or "multi-grafts". These are three and four hair grafts, not twos, thus we are not placing four hair grafts into the same sized incision as that of a two hair graft."

 

However, since H&W does classify graft counts in 3 different ways, I'm not sure the patient is only given the number of singles and the number of "multi-haired" grafts. I also wish to see H&W give more detailed hair counts. I don't believe that it's a bad mark against them if they decide not to...but I think it would rule out anymore negative assumptions. So I'm in agreement with you on that.

 

Everyone,

 

I think so far this conversation has been educational and respectful...let's just remember...we are all on the same team and are looking to further educate ourselves and others by giving and receiving CORRECT information. It's important if you will that this is hashed out so that there is no more call to speculation. I also want to state, however, that there has to be a certain level of belief on our parts too when an answer is given, especially by an esteemed member and trusted friend on this forum. At the same time, it is our job to remain cautious of simply word of mouth...which is why it's MUCH more important to look at results to determine if a clinic does a good job. Anyway...I look forward to further discussion and hope that everyone will walk away from this feeling satisfied and further educated.

 

Bill

[NervousNelly]

Bill,

 

Good summation. I agree with what you stated. I guess you are right about the fee for incisions but it would vary on occasion with double FU, but ofcourse that is another whole debate in itself.

[Gorpy]

For the sake of accuracy I wanted to correct what I stated earlier. Pat stated below that he saw hardly any 3's and 4's for this person. Two techs stated that the largest grafts they do is 3's. Even though this patient didn't have many. It would be highly unusual for two techs to state that if it weren't true.

 

Once again - provide detailed hair counts and all speculation will end. Considering the averages stated below by Pat, each patient should have an abundance of 3's with some 4's. Since you separate them in nice little stacks and create custome blades for them, please just count them and let us know.

 

quote:

" According to a published study the typical distribution of hairs in follicular units is ??“ 14% one hair, 51% two hairs, 29% three hairs, 6% four hairs.

 

 

When I asked two of the technicians about the lack of 3 and 4 hair grafts they told me that three hair grafts are the largest size they cut. Thus while the average number of hairs per graft does vary from patient to patient, the often quoted average number of hairs per follicular unit in the average patient is 2.3 hairs per follicular unit. Without a final hair count per graft I had no way of knowing if this patient's follicular units had more or less than the average 2.3 hairs per follicular unit or not." endquote.

[the B spot]

Good Thread, with lots of information.

 

I do think that this is not a "Bash H&W" thread. It should not be treated this way.

 

The very bottom line is simple--- match the hair counts with the graft counts.

 

Pretty simple solution and no reason to take offense on any level.

 

We have hashed the same information over and over, so what is the problem?

 

I think that goes for all clinics, and for the most part, everyone is cooperating fairly well.

 

This is not a results thread, rather an information thread.

 

Information that I personally want to know and I am sure others do as well (including patients of H&W and other clinics)

 

Take Care,

J

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Talk about "splitting hairs" or dare I say "splitting grafts".

 

It seems that when members of this forum carefully consider the issue of graft/hair counts they come to the realization that I've come to - "Count Hairs not Grafts".

 

In my opinion, it's the only fair and universal measurement that can be applied across clinics to gain a realistic sense of the amount of hair actually transplanted.

 

Cutting grafts is subjective and I do believe that some clinics create smaller grafts with less hair than others. This includes Coalition members, who all produce excellent end results in my opinion.

 

I have asked physicians, clinics and patients to provide hair counts in addition to graft counts. Some clinics and patients have provided such useful detail, while others have not.

 

I will continue ask for and advocate such hair counts. But I don't expect all clinics to provide such information until the members of this forum demand such hair counts and ask for them over and over and over again.

 

I know that any and all clinics can provide such detailed information in their posts and to their patients if they choose to.

 

In the past our photo galleries only requested graft and session counts. But a few months ago we overhauled our system to enable clinics to upload detailed text notes, including hair counts as well as multiple photos from all angles (top, sides, front, back etc). It will take time before this additional detail is added. But in the mean time I would like to see posts providing hair counts in addition to graft counts.

 

So are we going to demand and get hair counts in posts? I know that we can make hair counts a real industry wide standard if we only ask for and expect it.

 

Pat

[Dr. Jerry Wong]

Pat

I've kept records of strip size graft counts including numbers of singles doubles and large grafts for the last 14yrs. These information including the OR record are available to patients that are interested. Very few are interested, in fact I've had no more than 5 to 6 request over the years for such detailed information. In the last 6 to 7 years further details such as blade sizes incisional depth wound closure tension have been added.

 

If we really want to compare outcome we need to look not only at the number of hairs placed but also the percentage growth and the quality of the hair growth. Knowing the numbers of hair placed provides some useful information but it's the rate of growth plus the quality of the transplanted hair that determines the final outcome.

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Dr. Wong,

 

Thank you for your response. When our web community first began over seven years ago just getting before and after photos with frontal views and graft and session counts seemed to be adequate. But now as patients online have become more sophisticated they are increasingly interested in seeing more detailed patient photos from all views and they want more details about the surgery.

 

H & W have been leaders in presenting excellent photo documentation not only after the final results have grown in but immediately after surgery and during the entire restoration process. Other clinics need to follow this example. In addition, all physicians recommended on this community should provide more details about the surgery such as graft and hair counts, strip sizes, blades used, densities and other notes.

 

To improve our community we recently overhauled our photo galleries to enable clinics to now provide more photos from all views as well as hair counts by graft, donor strip sizes and extensive text notes for each set of patient photos.

 

Physicians can now login to their own private online admin to upload new patient photos and edit existing photos by adding more detailed information.

 

In the coming weeks I will be encouraging physicians to use their online admins to login to add more meaningful data for existing and new patient photos.

 

Frankly I think our 500 plus sets of patient photos on the Hair Transplant Network and the Coalition Hair Loss Learning Center.org really need new photos, with more angles and more meaningful data. This will take time to get all the physicians to add this data.

 

I would greatly appreciate any information that you can add to your current photos. To do so please access your online admin. Perhaps Joe can also get involved in updating you and Dr. Hasson's photos that appear on our sites.

 

We are also trying to improve the information that is shared on our discussion forum and many patients are now providing their hair counts in addition to graft counts.

 

I do agree that the final growth rates are also critical and H & W have certainly shown time and time again that large sessions at high densities can achieve excellent growth rates when performed by a skilled staff. I think that photos will continue to be our best evidence of this.

 

I believe that the more people know the better you and the other leading clinics will look.

 

I appreciate you making surgical details and hair/graft counts available to your patients.

 

Best regards, Pat