Open discussion with Falceros

[PerfectFew]

Hi Bill:

 

I thought since you and I are debating, you wouldn't mind if we did it more openly. Since this forum is supposed to be about patient advocacy, let's discuss it openly and visible so that all potential patients can view?

 

By the way, I am a happy patient who had a FANTASTIC procedure from a great experienced doctor. I paid hard earned money for my HT and I will gladly show you the results in person. In fact, if we met personally, I could show you the truth about this forum that nobody has been told.

 

I am open to conversation with you at any time. If you want to email me, I will provide that information to you so we can meet in person. That way you will know the real truth.

 

You seem to be trying really hard to be a patient advocate. I like that. If you only knew the truth, I know you would feel like you had been violated.

[PerfectFew]

Hi Bill:

 

I thought since you and I are debating, you wouldn't mind if we did it more openly. Since this forum is supposed to be about patient advocacy, let's discuss it openly and visible so that all potential patients can view?

 

By the way, I am a happy patient who had a FANTASTIC procedure from a great experienced doctor. I paid hard earned money for my HT and I will gladly show you the results in person. In fact, if we met personally, I could show you the truth about this forum that nobody has been told.

 

I am open to conversation with you at any time. If you want to email me, I will provide that information to you so we can meet in person. That way you will know the real truth.

 

You seem to be trying really hard to be a patient advocate. I like that. If you only knew the truth, I know you would feel like you had been violated.

[Bill - Seemiller]

PerfectFew,

 

I will be glad to debate here and since we are now on one thread, hopefully everyone will reply here.

 

Regarding this so called "truth" you refer to, feel free to "enlighten" me.

 

My last reply to you was:

 

----

 

PerfectFew,

 

You are entitled to your opinion and I'm not going to be able to change it.

 

I'll say again...what Pat charges is irrelevant. Just as doctors who charge fees need money to live, so does Pat to be able to do what he does full time. My comparison regarding a doctor paying a fee or a patient paying a fee IS apples to apples.

 

Let me try to explain it another way for you...

 

Ethical surgeons will NOT do a hair transplant surgeon on everyone REGARDLESS of how much money a patient is willing to spend. The ethical doctor will make a decision as to whether or not a patient is a GOOD HT candidate based on criteria and then make a decision to either perform or not perform the surgery. I know many doctors who have turned patients away because they are not YET good candidates. Their concern therefore is for the well-being of the patient, not their own pockets.

 

It is similar with the coalition. Sure...there is a fee to join the coalition or to be recommended here...but Pat has turned away many physicians INCLUDING Dr. Goertz BECAUSE he was not a good candidate. In THIS case...it has nothing to do with good candidate as a patient, but he was not a good candidate as a doctor why? Because his techniques and methods are NOT up to date and do not meet the high expectations of this community. If he is angry and bitter about that, that's his problem...but why whime about it when he could up his standards and further advance his skills?

 

Pat is entitled to collect what he likes just as doctors are free to charge what they like for surgery. Why should Pat not get paid for a living? He collects what he needs to do his job to the best of his ability (regardless of the fee he collects). Does this make his work any less ethical? If you say YES then one could argue that ANYBODY who gets paid is a liar and a cheat. That's ridiculous.

 

You basically keep asking...what does Pat charge...and I'm sure he'll tell you...BUT...is it anybody's business how much someone's annual salary is? Isn't it considered rude in social circles to go around asking what people make for a living? Do you want to reveal what you do for a living and share with all of us how much you make? Perhaps the fact that you get paid for whatever you do is highly unethical and that makes you a liar and a cheat. Obviously...that statement is ridiculous...just as ridiculous as your accusation of this community.

 

Oh and one more thing...I think I have already explained this clearly...but I'll use this example...you said:

 

 

I know a doctor who decided not to pay the fees and was dropped from this site.

 

 

So what? If you didn't pay your electric bill, they'd turn off your electricity. If you didn't pay taxes you'd be arrested. I'll say it this way...we are NOT saying here that if a doctor is not on the recommended list and coalition list that they are BAD doctors. We are only saying that those who ARE on the list are GOOD doctors. Certainly there are doctors who qualify but have chosen NOT to pay the fee...that's their perogative. We don't hold it against them. BUT...there is a membership fee to remain on the list.

 

Why don't you go fight with the ISHRS who collect membership fees. Are they unethical and liars? The only difference between the ISHRS and the coalition is the coalition holds physicians accountable whereas the ISHRS accepts anyone who had a medical license AND willing to pay a fee. Again, your allogations are PREPOSTEROUS.

 

Again...you are entitled to your opinion...but it won't change that this community stands for high level expectations from it's recommended and coalition physicians.

 

Cheers and goodnight.

 

Bill

 

----

 

I will have to continue this debate tomorrow, however...but feel free to post your rebutal. I have also seen some valid questions posted by B Spot on another thread, look forward to your reply on that as well.

 

Bill

[PerfectFew]

He wasn't just dropped from the site.

 

Pat specifically made bogus statements about him being "substandard" to me. That is what keyed me in. I search through historical documents on the Internet to discover the truth. Pat bad-mouthed him because he wouldn't pay.

 

He was not buying electricity. He was paying for being listed. Dropping him from the list is ok. Telling people he is substandard is a bold-faced LIE.

 

By the way, this doctor is a personal friend of Bobby Limmer - you should know his credentials. Ask Bobby Limmer if he is "substandard". He is an incredible physician, probably in the top 3 in the U.S.

[the B spot]

By the way, this doctor is a personal friend of Bobby Limmer - you should know his credentials. Ask Bobby Limmer if he is "substandard". He is an incredible physician, probably in the top 3 in the U.S.

 

 

Well, I no longer have to worry about people taking you seriously anymore.

 

Any shred of weight people were giving your posts have now been tossed away.

 

Bobby Limmer is a SOLID doc..... that is it.

 

Well respected? Sure.

 

Pretty good at what he does... absolutely.

 

A doc I don't mind recommending to people who are unwilling to travel? Sure.

 

Top 3? Your out of your f'ing mind.

 

J

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by the B spot:

By the way, this doctor is a personal friend of Bobby Limmer - you should know his credentials. Ask Bobby Limmer if he is "substandard". He is an incredible physician, probably in the top 3 in the U.S.

 

 

Well, I no longer have to worry about people taking you seriously anymore.

 

Any shred of weight people were giving your posts have now been tossed away.

 

Bobby Limmer is a SOLID doc..... that is it.

 

Well respected? Sure.

 

Pretty good at what he does... absolutely.

 

A doc I don't mind recommending to people who are unwilling to travel? Sure.

 

Top 3? Your out of your f'ing mind.

 

J

 

I never said Bobby Limmer was in the top 3 numbnuts. Read my post carefully. I said my doctor is a personal friend of Limmer's. My doctor is definitely in the top 3. Do your homework, because "Your out of your f'ing mind". Bobby Limmer did not do my transplant, so I wouldn't have enough information to recommend him. I do know that he has contributed a HUGE amount of information to this field. Unlike others who CLAIM this (Bosley et al). If it wasn't for Limmer, neither you or I would even be posting to this forum because there would be no doctors to debate. They would all be installing plugs and the field would be in the "dark ages".

[the B spot]

Oh so Goertz is in the top 3!!!!!!!!!

 

Jesus Christ he must be paying you a FORTUNE!!!!

 

Either that or he hired a really good hypnotist!!!!

 

Anyway, it's been fun, but there are MANY docs better than the doc you chose, but I am glad that you are happy with your results.

 

In the end, that is all that matters.. and regardless of how misinformed or malcontented you are, your still a balding brother and for that I am happy.

 

Later,

J

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by the B spot:

Oh so Goertz is in the top 3!!!!!!!!!

 

Jesus Christ he must be paying you a FORTUNE!!!!

 

Either that or he hired a really good hypnotist!!!!

 

Anyway, it's been fun, but there are MANY docs better than the doc you chose, but I am glad that you are happy with your results.

 

In the end, that is all that matters.. and regardless of how misinformed or malcontented you are, your still a balding brother and for that I am happy.

 

Later,

J

 

Again, your opinion means absolutely sh@t to me and probably about the same to many others. Goertz is at the top of his game. And I wish he was paying me a fortune. I would probably be doing something more meaningful than debating "opinions" with someone who doesn't even know my doctor, has never met him and certainly knows very little about the field.

 

By the way, my name is not Jesus Christ.

 

Anyway, as you stated, we are "balding brothers", and for that I am happy you enjoy your results also. By the way, Shapiro is actually a great doctor. I compliment him as well... he could be one of those in the top 3, based upon the results I have seen of his patients.

 

Best Wishes

[Bill - Seemiller]

PerfectFew,

 

Wait a minute...so you are a patient of Dr. Goertz then?

 

Should we find it a coincidence that he is the host of that community and you are the primary contributer there?

 

So what is Dr. Goertz paying you to criticize this site?

 

If YOU think B Spot knows very little about this field, then you have already discredited yourself in this community and others. People here respect his opinion and certainly they respect mine. B Spot is certainly well informed and I respect his opinion, even if we sometimes disagree.

 

The truth is...there is not a lot of information on this site or others about Dr. Goertz. I only remember HairBeThere, and Pat already posted a picture of his post op surgery.

 

Ok...now to address your response to me...

 

I'd love to see these historical documents that you've uncovered that provide this so called truth.

 

What say you about the picture that Pat posted on Dr. Goertz's forum? I would agree that when you compare that immediately post op picture with post op pictures of clinics using ultra-refined FUT, it indeed is substandard. I agree with his assessment.

 

So Pat says he was dropped because his results are substandard, and you say he was dropped because he didn't pay. Well...feel free to provide your proof. Pat has already provided his, and as the saying goes "a picture is worth a thousand words". Again, here is the link...what do you think?

 

http://hair-restoration-info.com/eve/forums?a=displayal...eshow&x_startwith=19

 

Bill

[MrJobi]

Hi

 

Let me be a voice of reason here.. First of all, to say any doc is in the TOP THREE is foolish.. This is a slap in the face to all of the top coalition docs on here.. I have never said my doctor Dr. True is the best because there are others who can deliver the same results..

 

the bottom line is, to determine how good a doctor is:

 

Look at the techniques he uses & his patents results! Period, end of dicussion .. If a doctor wishes not to pay to be listed on a site,fair enough although I would inquire why ( these guys make a ton of money)?? This is a valuble tool for the "right" side of the industry. I highly doubt Pat would bad mouth his practice due to a petty fee..

 

Is Dr. Goertz a top doc? I dunno, let's see his consistent results & hear from his patients as we do from the top dogs on here??

[Aquarius]

I looked at his site. Is that a rug on his head? Yes it is . Well I guess he couldn't have worked on himself huh. Also he is one seedy looking sob.

There Is hair be there all bloodied up in a hug session. Ignorance is bliss...

Also who the heck are you to approve of DR. Shapiro. He transends this whole field . Goettz the F out.

[Jotronic]

I have some simple questions to ask you. Long drawn out responses are not necessary, just the straight answer please.

 

You said..."I search through historical documents on the Internet to discover the truth. Pat bad-mouthed him because he wouldn't pay."

 

I would ask you to post the link to these documents that say this is the reason that Pat ended his relationship with your doctor.

 

"By the way, this doctor is a personal friend of Bobby Limmer - you should know his credentials. Ask Bobby Limmer if he is "substandard". He is an incredible physician..."

 

For argument's sake, do you think that anyone would say anything negative about a "personal friend" when asked in this context?

 

"By the way, Shapiro is actually a great doctor. I compliment him as well... he could be one of those in the top 3, based upon the results I have seen of his patients."

 

Hold on a second. Have you met any of Dr. Shapiro's patients? If not, again for argument's sake alone, if you have never met any of Dr. Shapiro's patients then how can you say he is a great doctor when you lambast Pat for making his assessments of your doctor without having actually been to his clinic?

 

Please try not to include diversions to me being a paid employee of a clinic as part of your answer. It has nothing to do with my questions as they are completely logical.

 

Btw, isn't the term "paid employee" redundant?

[the B spot]

Yes, "paid employee" is redundant.

 

I just think it is funny, but I seem to remember a situation where a certain patient did not close and was allowed to leave the clinic with open spots in his donor area, in addition to being subjected to a meat-grinder like approach where overly large incisions were used to house un-refined follicular units.

 

Of course, the good doctor stated that the poor patient should go "have a smoke" because we all know cigarettes are a vaso-constrictor and this will allow the scalp to constrict and tighten up the grafts and slow bloodloss.

 

Anyway, I think it is great when PAID shills of unknown/poor docs attempt to slander or discredit other docs or in this case organizations in order to make themselves feel/look better.

 

They just have not figured it out..... people will go to where the results are being delivered, PERIOD.

 

However, if there is no stop-gap of informed patients, situations like the one I discribed could happen without anyone else's knowing.

 

It comes down to results---

 

Remember, a doctor must embrace the innovations of others and have his or her innovations embraced by other docs in addition to providing consistantly superior results to be considered great.

 

Anyone want to toss Dr. Goertz in the "great category?

 

Take Care,

J

[hair2stay]

Yikes... I followed the link from a previous post and saw the photos of Dr Goetz surgery. Man, I hope that was not anything recent! This surgery looks like somebody practicing in the infant stages of FUT, very student like. Perhaps this example would have been seen as exceptional if we were to turn the clock back to 1995 when mini/micro HT's were the standard.

 

Whether Dr's have to pay to be a part of the coalition or not is not what sets them apart from others. It is the quality of work that is evident day in and day out. All examples that are shown here and in person speak directly to their proficiency.

 

This is how I see it...Are certain Dr's getting more business and exposure here because of the coalition and the money they pony up to be a part of it? Yes... But advertising is a very essential part of our market driven world we live in, and it always costs money to advertise. How else do consumers get exposure to services and goods? Word of mouth... Yes, and that happens here too. What makes this site different, is these Dr's are essentially advertising, yet there are no obnoxious banner ads, and there is quality control kept in check by a watchdog publisher and community. Sounds like a pretty good model to me in which vendors show their product and buyers get exposure to a market that has been regulated to meet high standards.

 

my .02

 

h2

[Aquarius]

Impressive huh! Thats recent. 2004

Modern H/T = Post 1958.

Pine tar the ballbats boys.

Note to B spot - Keep swinging. : )

[Pat - Community Publisher]

Imperfect Few - Who is buddy buddy with Dr. B.L. Limmer does not matter on this community. This is the Hair Transplant Network not the old boys network.

 

Despite your unsubstantiated claim, I have never bad mouthed a physician based on them not participating in our community. Doing so would be unfair, malicious and unethical. Frankly, this community and its reputation are so well known amongst physicians that virtually every physician who has been invited to participate during the past eight years has gladly done so and benefited greatly.

 

The only physicians who have left this community during the past couple of years have been removed by me. Any physician who does not feel this community is of value to them or their patients is free to leave at any time. However, since this community has both high visibility and credibity those few who have been chosen have had the good sense to participate and sponsor this site.

 

Do I get paid? Yes, I do and I don't recall pretending to be the Mother Theresa of Hair (But I'll bet she took contributions in any case). Me and this community are not for sale. Physicians are presented here strictly based on their merit. They then pay a monthly sponsorship fee that over a full year amounts to the price of about one surgery (not the misrepresented and incorrect fees that you presented on your forum). This information is disclosed on our sites.

 

Given the dozens of patients that most physicians garner from participating in this community their sponsorship fee is a tremendous value that has enabled them to cut their advertising expenses to the bone and even lower their prices. Frankly, the Internet and this community have been a tremendous windfall for the top clinics because they thrive in an enviroment where patients can measure the talk by the actual walk. The Internet has enabled many leading independent clinics to compete successfully with the national chain clinics.

 

As for the removal of surgeons like Dr. Goertz, in the past when I removed a physician I typically did it discreetly. Only when the issue of the quality of a physician's work arose on the forum did their removal become public knowledge.

 

I removed Dr. Goertz from the Hair Transplant Network due to concerns I had about his technique. His removal had absolutely nothing to do with fees. Only after he was removed did Dr. Goertz claim to his colleauges that he quit over fees (yes, much like being fired and then claiming you quit).

 

Dr. Goertz was very bitter about his removal, which he felt was unfair. In the interest of fairness I offered to visit his clinic and see his actual procedure and some of his patients. Dr. Goertz refused my offer and was unwilling to allow me to visit his clinic when I was in the Seattle area last year.

 

Since that time he has continued to be so bitter that he was motivated to create the anti Hair Transplant Network for which you are a vocal advocate. Apparently he has convinced a few of his colleagues to join him in this folly.

 

I know you are patient of Dr. Goertz. But given the your pattern of venomous posting I would like you to divulge what compensation you are deriving from Dr. Goertz for doing his dirty work online?

 

This community and myself can handle an open discussion about our behavior and motivations. Can you?

 

Pat

[NervousNelly]

Gentleman,

 

This is why I like my brothers here. Your words are eloquently and diplomatically stated even towards an obvious venomous poster. I was trying to listen and understand his concerns, but when he indicated that he is a patient of Dr. Goertz it become obvious of his intentions. If we continue to handle such intruders as we do, all viewers will be able to see thru such postings.

 

I personally like the name--"Perfectfew". Is that in reference to one of the perfect few that Dr. Goertz worked on or that there are a few perfect hairs that have been transplanted???

 

NN

[tom thomas]

WOW,

 

This last post by Pat sums it up as good as it could be. Great job Pat. As for me, I wish I found this site three years ago.

[Bill - Seemiller]

In case anyone is interested...I posted at the hairlossdoctorlist.com site the following which can CURRENTLY be found here if not removed: http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Quoted directly from the hairlossdoctorlist website:

 

"Hair transplant surgeons have been compromised by less than ethical organizations that charge a substantial fee to be listed as a recommended hair restoration surgeon. It is up to all ethical hair transplant physicians to avoid the trap of being recommended for a fee rather than their skill. It is up to each patient to ask "why" a doctor is recommended on a particular site and disclose monthly or yearly fees associated with being a recommended physician. Websites with a recommended list of Physicians that portray themselves as patient advocacy sites should also be questioned: Do physicians pay a fee to be listed or is it truly an unbiased patient advocacy site? Do those sites allow paid employees of physician's practices to "pump" or "hype" their physician employers? Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed. You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here and also ask what they pay as a recommended physician on so called "Patient Advocacy Sites". The Physicians listed are not allowed to have paid employees of their practice post on any of the Forums. "

 

This statement is completely false.

 

I think any readers of this community should ask themselves several additional questions:

 

1. What has more credibility?

 

A. A site for patients provided by patients where doctors are held accountable for their actions to remain members

 

B. OR a site for doctors run by doctors who didn't make meet the qualifications to be recommended by these sites.

 

I encourage you to read this thread and view the picture of a Dr. Goertz post op picture posted by Pat Hennessey the publisher of the Hair Transplant Network: http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

 

2. How is this site funded? And I answer from the quote above: "You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here". In other words, physicians listed here PAY a membership fee.

 

3. One of the requirements to be a hairloss doctor member is to be in good standing with the ISHRS. Guess what? This organization requires two things and two things alone: that a doctor have a medical license AND that they pay a fee.

 

4. Patients can hold doctors accountable...how can doctors who run this site hold themselves accountable? Is that not a conflict of interest?

 

Doctors here (and a few members) will try to convince you that they don't enlist on the other communities because the fees are too high. Consider how much hair transplantation costs and how much money these clinics are making...certainly they can afford the fee.

 

Here is a quote from the well respected Dr. Feller of Feller Medical in NY posted at the Hair Transplant Network:

 

 

"HT doctors have been ducking the internet for years- looking for any and every excuse not to have to participate.

 

Most of them know their work is substandard compared to those doctors who encourage their patients to post photos of every aspect of their procedures.

 

Rather than improve their work, they try to tear down the forums used to display other doctor's work. It is so transparent.

 

I have been attacked by other doctors who've critisized my use of the web to display my results. They think it is "wrong" but can never articulate why. Interesting isn't it?

 

Anyone with a medical degree and the due's fee can be an ISHRS member. It is meaningless as far as merit goes. Any doctor who honestly believes their work is superior should have no problem allowing themselves to be scrutinized DAILY on the web. If a doctor resists this, then you know where he/she feel's they really rank in the pack."

 

 

From the hairlossdoctorlist site:

 

1. Be a member in good standing of the ISHRS (International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery) for a minimum of 3 consecutive years.

2. Must practice within the United States of America.

3. Member Physicians must perform all his own patient consultations.

4. Members recognize that hair transplantation has evolved over a number of years and commits to continuing his/her medical education.

5. Must be willing to share high resolution before and after pictures with his/her prospective patients and offer patients the opportunity to speak with other patients at their request.

6. Members must not allow employees of their practice or other paid independent contractors to post in the forums because of obvious conflict of interest.

 

Remember what I said about the ISHRS above? Now look at number 1 above. Good standing of the ISHRS simply means that they keep their medical license and they pay their fees.

 

Look at number 2. What does location have to do with the skill of the doctor?

 

I have absolutely no problem with physicians performing their own consultations, however, the use of consultants does not necessarily indicate a poor clinic. Need proof? Look up Hasson and Wong, or Feller Medical and look at their work. Often times they use consultants. If you take the time to research these two clinics, I think you'll see what I mean!

 

In closing...

 

Readers...don't be deceived. Some of the doctors listed here have been rejected by other communities NOT because they aren't willing to pay a fee (since they are obviously willing to pay a fee at the hairlossdoctorlist), but because their work is substandard and can't compete with other more qualified physicians.

 

I share this all with you because I want to see patients make educated decisions and think wisely before they just believe the hype from bitter doctors who didn't make the cut.

 

Bill

Proud PATIENT AND MEMBER of the Hair Transplant Network. To date I have NOT been paid for any information, service, or postings I've done in ANY community.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Bill

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by Bill:

In case anyone is interested...I posted at the hairlossdoctorlist.com site the following which can CURRENTLY be found here if not removed: http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Quoted directly from the hairlossdoctorlist website:

 

"Hair transplant surgeons have been compromised by less than ethical organizations that charge a substantial fee to be listed as a recommended hair restoration surgeon. It is up to all ethical hair transplant physicians to avoid the trap of being recommended for a fee rather than their skill. It is up to each patient to ask "why" a doctor is recommended on a particular site and disclose monthly or yearly fees associated with being a recommended physician. Websites with a recommended list of Physicians that portray themselves as patient advocacy sites should also be questioned: Do physicians pay a fee to be listed or is it truly an unbiased patient advocacy site? Do those sites allow paid employees of physician's practices to "pump" or "hype" their physician employers? Hair Loss Doctors List has simple criteria to be listed and Physicians pay a modest fee to be listed. You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here and also ask what they pay as a recommended physician on so called "Patient Advocacy Sites". The Physicians listed are not allowed to have paid employees of their practice post on any of the Forums. "

 

This statement is completely false.

 

I think any readers of this community should ask themselves several additional questions:

 

1. What has more credibility?

 

A. A site for patients provided by patients where doctors are held accountable for their actions to remain members

 

B. OR a site for doctors run by doctors who didn't make meet the qualifications to be recommended by these sites.

 

I encourage you to read this thread and view the picture of a Dr. Goertz post op picture posted by Pat Hennessey the publisher of the Hair Transplant Network: http://www.hairlossdoctorlist.com/Forums/tabid/53/forum...w/topic/Default.aspx

 

2. How is this site funded? And I answer from the quote above: "You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here". In other words, physicians listed here PAY a membership fee.

 

3. One of the requirements to be a hairloss doctor member is to be in good standing with the ISHRS. Guess what? This organization requires two things and two things alone: that a doctor have a medical license AND that they pay a fee.

 

4. Patients can hold doctors accountable...how can doctors who run this site hold themselves accountable? Is that not a conflict of interest?

 

Doctors here (and a few members) will try to convince you that they don't enlist on the other communities because the fees are too high. Consider how much hair transplantation costs and how much money these clinics are making...certainly they can afford the fee.

 

Here is a quote from the well respected Dr. Feller of Feller Medical in NY posted at the Hair Transplant Network:

 

 

"HT doctors have been ducking the internet for years- looking for any and every excuse not to have to participate.

 

Most of them know their work is substandard compared to those doctors who encourage their patients to post photos of every aspect of their procedures.

 

Rather than improve their work, they try to tear down the forums used to display other doctor's work. It is so transparent.

 

I have been attacked by other doctors who've critisized my use of the web to display my results. They think it is "wrong" but can never articulate why. Interesting isn't it?

 

Anyone with a medical degree and the due's fee can be an ISHRS member. It is meaningless as far as merit goes. Any doctor who honestly believes their work is superior should have no problem allowing themselves to be scrutinized DAILY on the web. If a doctor resists this, then you know where he/she feel's they really rank in the pack."

 

 

From the hairlossdoctorlist site:

 

1. Be a member in good standing of the ISHRS (International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery) for a minimum of 3 consecutive years.

2. Must practice within the United States of America.

3. Member Physicians must perform all his own patient consultations.

4. Members recognize that hair transplantation has evolved over a number of years and commits to continuing his/her medical education.

5. Must be willing to share high resolution before and after pictures with his/her prospective patients and offer patients the opportunity to speak with other patients at their request.

6. Members must not allow employees of their practice or other paid independent contractors to post in the forums because of obvious conflict of interest.

 

Remember what I said about the ISHRS above? Now look at number 1 above. Good standing of the ISHRS simply means that they keep their medical license and they pay their fees.

 

Look at number 2. What does location have to do with the skill of the doctor?

 

I have absolutely no problem with physicians performing their own consultations, however, the use of consultants does not necessarily indicate a poor clinic. Need proof? Look up Hasson and Wong, or Feller Medical and look at their work. Often times they use consultants. If you take the time to research these two clinics, I think you'll see what I mean!

 

In closing...

 

Readers...don't be deceived. Some of the doctors listed here have been rejected by other communities NOT because they aren't willing to pay a fee (since they are obviously willing to pay a fee at the hairlossdoctorlist), but because their work is substandard and can't compete with other more qualified physicians.

 

I share this all with you because I want to see patients make educated decisions and think wisely before they just believe the hype from bitter doctors who didn't make the cut.

 

Bill

Proud PATIENT AND MEMBER of the Hair Transplant Network. To date I have NOT been paid for any information, service, or postings I've done in ANY community.

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

Bill

 

Stop deflecting the issue. Hasson and Wong PAY "consultants" (ie sales people) to post in this forum. IT IS A HUGE RED FLAG. It is a tactic that is used by Bosley and MHR. Look them up.

 

Readers... don't be deceived. Bill is either lying for Pat, or he is ignorant of the truth. DOCTORS ARE ONLY LISTED IF THEY PAY A FEE. THAT IS THE PRIMARY REQUIREMENT. GOOD DOCTORS WON'T GET LISTED UNLESS THEY PAY THE FEE. BAD DOCTORS WILL GET LISTED IF THE PAY THE FEE.

[Bill - Seemiller]

Stop deflecting the issue. Hasson and Wong PAY "consultants" (ie sales people) to post in this forum. IT IS A HUGE RED FLAG. It is a tactic that is used by Bosley and MHR. Look them up.

 

Readers... don't be deceived. Bill is either lying for Pat, or he is ignorant of the truth. DOCTORS ARE ONLY LISTED IF THEY PAY A FEE. THAT IS THE PRIMARY REQUIREMENT. GOOD DOCTORS WON'T GET LISTED UNLESS THEY PAY THE FEE. BAD DOCTORS WILL GET LISTED IF THE PAY THE FEE.

 

*Yawn*. You are going to have to do better than that to deflect my logic.

 

You really think the readers of this site are going to believe I'm being paid off? I've already openly admitted that I have applied for a recently posted paid position...but I've been here for almost 3 years. Read all my posts (all 2900+ of them) and tell me what you think then.

 

Anyway...

 

Your doctors pay a fee for your site too...see my number 2 that I already wrote:

 

2. How is the hairlossdoctorlist funded? And I answer from the quote above: "You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here". In other words, physicians listed here PAY a membership fee.

 

Try again.

 

Bill

[Bill - Seemiller]

P.S. I am done arguing with you unless you actually provide the proof of your claims.

 

Bill

[PerfectFew]

Originally posted by Bill:

Stop deflecting the issue. Hasson and Wong PAY "consultants" (ie sales people) to post in this forum. IT IS A HUGE RED FLAG. It is a tactic that is used by Bosley and MHR. Look them up.

 

Readers... don't be deceived. Bill is either lying for Pat, or he is ignorant of the truth. DOCTORS ARE ONLY LISTED IF THEY PAY A FEE. THAT IS THE PRIMARY REQUIREMENT. GOOD DOCTORS WON'T GET LISTED UNLESS THEY PAY THE FEE. BAD DOCTORS WILL GET LISTED IF THE PAY THE FEE.

 

*Yawn*. You are going to have to do better than that to deflect my logic.

 

You really think the readers of this site are going to believe I'm being paid off? I've already openly admitted that I have applied for a recently posted paid position...but I've been here for almost 3 years. Read all my posts (all 2900+ of them) and tell me what you think then.

 

Anyway...

 

Your doctors pay a fee for your site too...see my number 2 that I already wrote:

 

2. How is the hairlossdoctorlist funded? And I answer from the quote above: "You are invited to ask a physician listed here the fee he/she pays to be listed here". In other words, physicians listed here PAY a membership fee.

 

Try again.

 

Bill

 

yawn... I see you went and posted lies in the other forum. You claim the doctors there didn't meet the standards here. COMPLETE LIE. Wow!!! Those doctors are also listed here!!!! Please be careful. Your lies can get you into LEGAL TROUBLE.

 

Here are the facts:

 

A) I inquired. Doctors pay $200 per month to be "listed" on the other site. That is a very nominal fee. They are not recommended in the forums by the owner of the site. They are paying for advertising, and do not receive special treatment. DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE? Readers: Don't be fooled.

B) Pat charges $600 per month for listing and $16000 per year to be in the "coalition". If you add up the numbers, you will see it is nothing short of extortion and deception at its worst.

[PerfectFew]

Bill,

 

I am still waiting for you to apologize for lying in the other community.

 

I know that you, jotronic and Pat have all met. You are nothing more than a shill for this community.

[MrJobi]

Yeah PerfectFew

 

Everyone is lying .. I think they call this

 

psychosis

 

See ya crazyman