Matt Skiba

It has improved over time and it still is gradually, so yeah it's not permanent, it's just the sort of thing that can take a few months to resolve and call for a bit of extra effort in getting it under control. I could imagine that in older people it may not be so forgiving.

Cortisol is a hormone secreted by the adrenal glands, it is commonly called "the stress hormone". High levels of cortisol promote heart disease, diabetes, obesity, immunological suppresion, skin degeneration, difficulty gaining muscle and lack of sex drive. It doesn't take a genius to know that someone who's been going through a difficult period in their life may not always be looking so great. When someone is stressed out higher levels of cortisol are secreted, when this happens, the adrenal glands cannibalize production of the sex hormones to secrete cortisol. During an extended period of time the adrenals may get exhausted and not be able to keep up with the production of cortisol. If you have more cortisol you may end up with less human growth hormone, and it is common knowledge that HGH gives better skin conditions among other health benefits. Hair loss is mainly an immunological action, but you may notice that older people don't have as good of an immune system, yet they are more likely to lose their hair. Cortisol does mess up the immune system and cause decaying. If you run a lot every day it is bad for you and you will increase cortisol levels. This is why many marathon runners look like they're starving. I think a way that someone can halt or reduce hair loss is by taking proper blood tests for a hormonal profile, and working at areas that need improvement, even low testosterone levels. One may get the added benefits of improved health and vitality. Someone stated on here that if you were to use finasteride for 5 years and then quit, you will have halted the progress of MPB for that long and it will resume as normal. I disagree with this, as the follicles do continue aging, not only that but finasteride actually increases cortisol levels, as indicated the following study: http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/9/3316. Thanks to fellow forum member blondie for pointing this out to me. As 5-alpha reductase is eliminated, progesterone accumulated since 5-alpha reductase also serves the purpose of converting progesterone to allopregnenolone. Progesterone itself can cause feminizing and negative sexual effects by increasing the amount of estrogen receptors in bodily tissues, but Cortisol is also synthesized from progesterone so an excess may call on the adrenal glands to produce more cortisol to offset this effect. I can tell you firsthand that my skin quality is not as good as it was before finasteride, and my cheeks have sagged a bit. I also had blood tests taken that show my elevated cortisol level which prove this. I plan on taking a supplement called powerfull which is supposed to increase growth hormone secretion to offset this problem. I have been able to recover somewhat after taking a few other supplements. You may also want to check out the following site, though I am not so sure of the credibility of it, but it definitely looks interesting and also has mention of the thymus gland which is an important immunological organ: http://www.hairloss-research.org/apr2001.html. Keep in mind that this post of mine is fairly scant, and this is all some fairly heavy reading and not the easiest stuff to summarize, but if anyone has any questions about specifics or anything I will do my best to give an adequate reply, but keep in mind I'm not a doctor or an endocrinologist, but I can come up with legitimate credible medical journal articles to prove what I am saying. Also if you think I'm being paid by anyone you can go fuck yourself.

Lifting weights increases testosterone levels, but only over a long period of time. http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/65/6/2406

Neither of those are really unhealthy.

I would suggest switching to Dr. Lee's xandrox formula which has azelaic acid which is clinically proven to inhibit DHT within the scalp. I've only been using it on and off like three times a week before I go to bed, but it has still regrown some hair in the front area. Also consider using nizoral ketoconazole shampoo or dr. lee's own ketoconazole shampoo. If you do do this make sure you use a moisturizing conditioner because if you don't your hair can end up looking and feeling like crap.

Arguing that "Diet Coke also has side effects" is a futile one. That is seriously a whole different thing, not to mention side effects are much less common. Same with minoxidil or natural products, the side effects of those products is much less often reported. I think the anabolic steroids comparison is a much better one. Because: 1. Many people use it saying there is no side effects. 2. It can fuck up your hormones, permanently for some. 3. It serves vanity purposes.

I totally agree with you, only after a while some people are private messaging me stating me their troubles on this forum, and asking for help, when they were formerly totally with the majority of the forum. The fact is that they need to be bit in the ass first before they come to the realization of what they've done, I myself am no exception from this. A true testament to vanity, I remember there was this old Greek myth about this guy who would do nothing but love himself. Somehow he ended up chained for eternity in front of a mirror completely disfigured and with this eyelids held open. Anyways if Bill or someone who is "not experiencing side effects" were to get a blood test done and post it on here I would be highly appreciative, main reason I say this is because I have yet to see an individual hormone profile of someone on fin without side effects, I feel it might give me a bit of an insight on myself and what I may need to fix within me. Also it will literally be living proof of the safety of the drug, because such things are not disclosed to the public. And to Bill, You removing my updated signature seems pretty unfair to me, and to me it feels like you did that out of spite more than anything. It was a factual informative page with absolutely no advertisement and formal studies to back up what it says. These are not scare tactics, they are facts. I think if you are going to apply censorship towards me then that degrades the legitimacy of this whole forum. I don't think I ever straight out said that herbs are good, I just said they may be effective. My guess is that they are mildly effective and when it used in combination and together with minoxidil, spironolactone, or ketoconazole it can have some significant merit, I'm personally experiencing regrowth with xandrox and nizoral alone.

Actually it is normal for most caucasian males around the time of the teenage years and early 20s to start acquiring a "maturing hairline". This is nothing to worry about, and if you look at kids you can see that they have a much more forward looking hairline. Frankly in my opinion a little bit of maturation can even add attractiveness. The following link may be of some help to you: http://www.baldingblog.com/2007/08/08/i-developed-a-widows-peak/ Also look up the term mature hairline on baldingblog.

Bill sometimes I wonder if Merck pays you. Side effects with the herbs are almost unheard of, and finasteride is a much more potent synthetic chemical. There is also not a forum on the internet solely dedicated to irreversible or long last side effects of saw palmetto or stinging nettle. Also azelaic acid has been clinically proven to reduce large amounts of DHT in the skin where you apply it to, you can look this up on pubmed. You also remove the link in my signature which is nothing more than a link to an informational blog about natural treatments, claiming it is "promotional in nature" and is "marketing products" even though I don't see it. Bill I have a challenge for you: Since you believe the idea that Propecia is a safe drug so strongly, let's see your own blood tests and hormone profile to see how you are currently reacting to the drug. If you have decent health care insurance and can find an independent lab to do this for you it might only run you about 60 bucks, and you get the added benefit of seeing some basic health statistics like you would at a regular doctor's checkup. You can also order the tests off the net and do them yourself, but I think this is more expensive and going to an actual place seems more legit, but if you would happen to decide on doing it like this, I have heard Quest is a good company for it. Many doctor's won't order these tests for you, so you have to find an independent lab yourself. I would suggest you scan the paper itself along with the phone number and address of the facility to prove that you are not showing us fake results. Obviously it would be a good idea to remove any of your personal information you feel necessary such as your address and phone number from the scanned image, you can easily do this using MS paint. I think many people here would be interested in seeing the forum's #1 member's bloodwork, if your blood tests do show that everything outside of DHT is within normal ranges, you will have proved your argument in the best way possible, and I will not go about telling people not to take Propecia on this forum anymore. I suggest you get the following done: Total Testosterone Free (Bioavailable) Testosterone DHT Estradiol (E2) Estrone (E1) Total Estrogens LH (Luteinizing Hormone) FSH (Follicle Stimulating Hormone) DHEA-s Cortisol SHBG (Sex Hormone Binding Globulin) Prolactin Progesterone Albumin ACTH (Adrenocorticotropic Hormone) PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen) Aldosterone Androstenediol glucuronide (Adiol-G) -- measures 5AR activity Androsterone glucuronide TSH (Thyroid Stimulating Hormone), Free T3, Free T4 CBC or FBC (Complete Blood Count/Full Blood Count) LFT (Liver Function Test - AST, ALT, etc.) You might come across a place that doesn't do all of the specific tests, this would still be ok, as long as you can show some of the basics like testosterone, DHT, estrogens, progesterone, and SHBG. I would be very interested in seeing your results if you do decide to go through with this.

As a matter of fact my reports of side effects were not exaggerated in the least bit, and there are many who have had it even worse than me with things like gynocomastia also known as man titties. I also have blood tests to prove my post-finasteride side effects, which includes lowered testosterone levels, higher estrogen levels, and oddly enough elevated DHT levels possibly due to a rebound once stopping the drug. So basically even if you just try it for a while and then come to the conclusion that it isn't right for you it has the potential for lasting side effects and increased hair loss. Basically it has the potential of putting you in a state similar to what happens to some men who abuse anabolic steroids. Also did I mention that DHT is important for mental sharpness and vigor? It is something that actually helps you think like a man. From what I can tell the vast majority of this forum is uneducated in the inner workings and specifics of the endocrine system, and I don't blame them, it's not a topic I'd normally be interested in, but after going through a biochemical nightmare I've had to do hours of research on the subject. The bottom line is you are in fact messing with stuff that shouldn't be messed with. My suggestions for alternatives if you are willing to take them is to use Dr. Lee's Xandrox minoxidil formulation which contains azelaic acid which is a potent topical anti-androgen. This has been clinically proven and there is an article on Pubmed on it, and pubmed is a respected and legitimate medical journal. You could combine xandrox with saw palmetto, pygeum, and stinging nettles, and you can also upgrade from nizoral 1% to Dr. Lee's ketaconazole shampoo. I think this would definitely be a healthy approach. You should also read the following forum post: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/75365-question-about-trt.html there's quite a few other posts on finasteride, and anabolic minds is a good forum for finding some knowledgable people on how the endocrine system works.

Apparently if you are lacking in zinc it can accelerate hair loss. Zinc seems to be an inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase. Fahim MS, et al. Zinc treatment for the reduction of hyperplasia of the prostate. Fed Proc 1976; 35:361. Abstract: Zinc has been implicated in steroid endocrinology of the prostate gland; and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is believed to express androgenic responses in the prostate. To note the effect of neutralized zinc (zinc gluconate + arginine) on the prostate, 50 sexually mature rats, weighing 325 +/- 20 g, were divided into five groups as follows: (1) control, (2) sham, (3) castrated, and injected intraprostatically with (4) 10 mg neutralized zinc, and (5) 20 mg neutralized zinc. Results indicated significant reduction (P < 0.05) of prostate weight, 5 alpha-reductase activity, and total protein and DNA concentrations in treated prostate tissue; no significant change in weight and histological structure of testes, epididymides, and seminal vesicles; and no significant effect on progeny and blood testosterone level of treated animals. These results suggest that direct application of neutralized zinc to the prostate offers a new modality for treatment of prostatitis without affecting spermatogenesis. Perhaps a combination approach of saw palmetto, zinc, stinging nettle, nizoral shampoo, minoxidil/azelaic acid, and perhaps some other things might be a good course of action. Also it would might be a good idea to have salivory, blood, or urine tests to see where your DHT levels stand.

Apparently if you are lacking in zinc it can accelerate hair loss. Zinc seems to be an inhibitor of 5-alpha reductase. Fahim MS, et al. Zinc treatment for the reduction of hyperplasia of the prostate. Fed Proc 1976; 35:361. Abstract: Zinc has been implicated in steroid endocrinology of the prostate gland; and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is believed to express androgenic responses in the prostate. To note the effect of neutralized zinc (zinc gluconate + arginine) on the prostate, 50 sexually mature rats, weighing 325 +/- 20 g, were divided into five groups as follows: (1) control, (2) sham, (3) castrated, and injected intraprostatically with (4) 10 mg neutralized zinc, and (5) 20 mg neutralized zinc. Results indicated significant reduction (P < 0.05) of prostate weight, 5 alpha-reductase activity, and total protein and DNA concentrations in treated prostate tissue; no significant change in weight and histological structure of testes, epididymides, and seminal vesicles; and no significant effect on progeny and blood testosterone level of treated animals. These results suggest that direct application of neutralized zinc to the prostate offers a new modality for treatment of prostatitis without affecting spermatogenesis. Perhaps a combination approach of saw palmetto, zinc, stinging nettle, nizoral shampoo, minoxidil/azelaic acid, and perhaps some other things might be a good course of action. Also it would might be a good idea to have salivory, blood, or urine tests to see where your DHT levels stand.

Wow this definitely looks better than the raw powder form that faith eagle sells.

You know what you could be right, apparently this is the problem with flutamide. This is a good read on it right here: http://www.farrellmanual.com/educate/flutamide_side_effects.htm

You can get it from Faith Eagle laboratories in China. http://www.f-e-lab.com/ And I guess with proper weighing out and whatnot you could make the powder into a 5% topical solution, the exact mechanism by which to do so I am still researching and perfecting . I really want to make sure I don't use an agent that's too strong and makes the stuff absorb beyond the skin into the bloodstream, cause really we don't even know what the hell we are dealing with over here, all I know is that this stuff is a very powerful topical anti-androgen, and is possibly even stronger than oral finasteride.

Well now that my libido has been repaired (and raised above what it was before finasteride), I get to start worrying about my hair yet again. I believe it's possible to get a hold of this stuff as a research chemical from a laboratory, though I hear it is expensive, about 400 bucks for a 6 month's supply. This stuff is supposedly a very, very powerful topical anti-androgen, and seeing as how finasteride is out of the question for me, I might have some good success with this stuff, especially in combination with xandrox and ketoconazole shampoo. A guy apparently had some good success using this stuff while doing a pro-hormone cycle in the following thread.. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/21961-hair-loss-prevention-33.html I think it might be in powder form, which would possibly need to be mixed with a delivery agent, which I know where to get a hold of complete with a sprayer.

Well now that my libido has been repaired (and raised above what it was before finasteride), I get to start worrying about my hair yet again. I believe it's possible to get a hold of this stuff as a research chemical from a laboratory, though I hear it is expensive, about 400 bucks for a 6 month's supply. This stuff is supposedly a very, very powerful topical anti-androgen, and seeing as how finasteride is out of the question for me, I might have some good success with this stuff, especially in combination with xandrox and ketoconazole shampoo. A guy apparently had some good success using this stuff while doing a pro-hormone cycle in the following thread.. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/21961-hair-loss-prevention-33.html I think it might be in powder form, which would possibly need to be mixed with a delivery agent, which I know where to get a hold of complete with a sprayer.

I definitely think genetics is the bottom line on this sort of thing, but like I said I think some factors could possibly determine the age of onset of mpb. I remember I've also read somewhere that mpb was unheard of in Japan until world war 2 when the country was exposed to a lot of western influence.

I know that a lot of you on this forum are dead-set on the fact that genetics is the culprit, this very well may be true, but I can't help but feel that there are other factors at play as well. I have a very good feeling that lifestyle factors do play a role. I remember reading somewhere that the percentage of men that get hair loss before the age of 20 has been gradually increasing every decade, I wish I could find this right now. I know many of you might think that I'm crazy for my post about my lasting side-effects after ceasing propecia, but I can assure you that it was not in my head, as my symptoms have greatly improved since taking some effective designer body-building supplements aimed at increasing my natural testosterone production, and no these are not prohormones or steroids which could do more damage in this area. With that side here is a list of non-genetic things that I believe can effect hair loss. Stress - This is an age-old one that has been known about, stress can cause shedding of hair, and I'm pretty sure that it can make the process go faster if your genetics deem so. Smoking - Nicotine can cause accumulations of DHT, accelerating hair loss as well as possibly causing prostate problems. Sodium Lauryl Sulfate or Sodium Laureth Sulfate - There have been reports of people saying that this can cause hair loss. This is a common ingredient found in many shampoos. Weight - I think I've read reports of people saying that they've lost lots of hair once they lost some weight, I believe that this could have an effect on vascularity and blood pressure, or perhaps there is more DHT and less blood for it to populate. Nutrition - I think that a lack of protein, biotin, zinc, and certain vitamins, mainly B vitamins, can have an effect on hair loss. Pro-hormone or anabolic steroid use - This is definitely a known one. Thyroid function - I think that even if the thyroid gland isn't at a point of being classified as dysfunctional, sub-optimal performance could be a factor. Adrenal function - Poor adrenal function could work in synergy with the stress factor. I'm sure there's even more stuff that could be added to this list..

I know that a lot of you on this forum are dead-set on the fact that genetics is the culprit, this very well may be true, but I can't help but feel that there are other factors at play as well. I have a very good feeling that lifestyle factors do play a role. I remember reading somewhere that the percentage of men that get hair loss before the age of 20 has been gradually increasing every decade, I wish I could find this right now. I know many of you might think that I'm crazy for my post about my lasting side-effects after ceasing propecia, but I can assure you that it was not in my head, as my symptoms have greatly improved since taking some effective designer body-building supplements aimed at increasing my natural testosterone production, and no these are not prohormones or steroids which could do more damage in this area. With that side here is a list of non-genetic things that I believe can effect hair loss. Stress - This is an age-old one that has been known about, stress can cause shedding of hair, and I'm pretty sure that it can make the process go faster if your genetics deem so. Smoking - Nicotine can cause accumulations of DHT, accelerating hair loss as well as possibly causing prostate problems. Sodium Lauryl Sulfate or Sodium Laureth Sulfate - There have been reports of people saying that this can cause hair loss. This is a common ingredient found in many shampoos. Weight - I think I've read reports of people saying that they've lost lots of hair once they lost some weight, I believe that this could have an effect on vascularity and blood pressure, or perhaps there is more DHT and less blood for it to populate. Nutrition - I think that a lack of protein, biotin, zinc, and certain vitamins, mainly B vitamins, can have an effect on hair loss. Pro-hormone or anabolic steroid use - This is definitely a known one. Thyroid function - I think that even if the thyroid gland isn't at a point of being classified as dysfunctional, sub-optimal performance could be a factor. Adrenal function - Poor adrenal function could work in synergy with the stress factor. I'm sure there's even more stuff that could be added to this list..

Finasteride actually has a flat dose response, so reducing dosage really doesn't do much, and in my experience at taking half a pill every other day, I still got the same side effects. I think the best way to go about it might be to gradually lengthen the days in between doses.

For the record I am not talking about saw palmetto in my post, I am talking about the naturally occuring enzyme 3 alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase. And as for your comment about side effects coming primarily from DHT inhibition itself, that is very untrue. I think for most people side effects come from the elevated level of estrogen in the body which is caused by the inhibition of DHT. DHT itself may have some reproductive function, but having a lowered amount of it usually doesn't do too much bad. You might want to reread my post a bit more carefully, because I don't want to repeat myself. Basically my theory is that by utilizing the HSD enzyme, someone won't end up with as much of an elevated testosterone level as they do with the use of finasteride, and because of this less excess testosterone will be converted to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme. Can you explain to me how gynocomastia(titties) happens by only having a lower amount of DHT? You can't. Estrogen is the culprit.

Even more information on negative consequences of finasteride.. Link between finasteride and depression: http://www.leaddiscovery.co.uk/admin%20gu/files/14467.asp Some more info on the GABA, and allopregnenolone affecting properties of finasteride on the highly reputable pubchem website, which is offered by the United States National Library of Medicine. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=...anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Having anything wrong with the chemicals inside of you is not an easy thing to go through. I've had to do lots and lots of research on a bunch of subjects that I would have never cared about in the past, but right now it seems like to me that gaining knowledge is pretty much the best thing I can do for myself to be able to start living any sort of normal life again. I'm sure that if there's people out there who can cure themselves of cancer I can cure myself of finasteride side effects.. And to Bill, I'm sorry, but after reading as many things as I have, I can't help but feel that taking Finasteride for any reason of vanity is a foolish and weak-minded thing to do. It is definitely one of those things that can affect you adversely neurologically without you even noticing it.

I recently made a post about 3 alpha hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, this study here shows that smoking can affect levels of it and thus affect levels of DHT in the body. It is a common fact that smoking causes aging of the skin and is bad for cardiovascular health. To me, it is a very believable fact that smoking is probably one of the worst choices you can make for hair loss as far as lifestyle choices go. Look through and read this government article and tell me what you think.. http://grande.nal.usda.gov/ibids/index.php?mode2=detail...rences&therow=206679

This is actually an enzyme found naturally in the human body, kinda like 5-alpha reductase, I guess you could call it the anti 5-alpha reductase because instead of converting Testosterone to DHT, it converts DHT back to testosterone, I also understand that by inhibiting 5-alpha reductase, testosterone and lieutinizing hormone production is raised via the negative feedback loop of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA). For those of you who don't know what the HPTA is, basically it is the system by which your hypothalamus gland in the brain senses the amount of androgens and estrogens in your body and sends a chemical signal accordingly to the pituitary gland, which sends a chemical signal to your testicles telling it the amount of hormones to produce. If the hypothalamus detects less DHT in the blood, your balls start producing more testosterone to make up for it, this could have possible negative consequences. One possibility which is a fact and does happen for some people is that the excess testosterone gets converted to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme and this causes such problems as ED and gynocomastia. Also, keep in mind that aromatase levels rise when there is less 5-alpha reductase. I think another possibility is your balls can't handle the excess workload so they shut down, even another possibility is that for some people waaay too much testosterone is made, and this creates an excess negative feedback in the hypothalamus, so your body shuts down and creates a much smaller amount of androgens and goes into a hypogonadal state, similar to that experienced by body-builders who've abused anabolic steroids. The enzyme CYP3A4 which is found in the liver is what's responsible for metabolizing and getting rid of finasteride (among many other drugs) in the body. I feel that for some people who ingest certain things that inhibit this enzyme it makes them more likely to get side effects. I believe the most common of these substances would be red wine and grapefruit juice, but oddly enough the list also includes ketoconazole (nizoral). So basically if you inhibit this enzyme, you could be getting a mega-dose of finasteride since your body isn't able to fully metabolize it. You can see a list of substances in the following wikipedia link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP3A4 Now lets talk about 3 alpha-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, often times referred to as 3-alpha HSD. This enzyme acts by converting DHT back to testosterone, and also has some other roles that I think involve progesterone, pregnenolone, and allopregnenolone, but I am not very sure of the details on this, what I do know though is that it doesn't inhibit the effects of the conversion of progesterone to allopregnenolone like finasteride does, but instead it is an enzyme, like 5-alpha reductase, that also converts progesterone to allopregnenolone, so any neurotoxic effects are avoided, and may even be ameliorated as there is more allopregnenolone being produced. I believe HSD is found in heavy concentrations in muscular tissue, and is the reason that DHT has no anabolic muscular effect. Now... correct me if I'm wrong, though DHT may be a much more powerful activator of an androgen receptor than testosterone, I have read that it pretty much has the same level of interaction with the hypothalamus as testosterone, so if you are converting DHT back to testosterone, you are not messing with the HPTA and you are avoiding adverse endocrine effects. Of course reducing DHT could have negative consequences of it's own, but I believe that with HSD it wouldn't be too hard to play around with dosages to find a healthy amount so there is sufficient DHT to maintain reproductive tissue and sperm, as well as libido, and be able to stop as much hair loss as possible with as little side effects as possible. http://www.jbc.org/cgi/content/full/276/45/42091 HSD is of course a natural thing found within the body, and for this reason, the FDA would never approve it for anything. So it would have to be sold as a supplement. I could imagine that it could be expensive, and possibly not easy to synthesize and manufacture. But I'm sure that it could be sold. I'm actually surprised that someone isn't already doing this, I'm sure there's some sort of reasoning behind it though. I would be very interested to find out why. In any case I would love to hear what someone else thinks of this, as long as I'm not labeled as being crazy, a fear-mongerer, or a hypochondriac.