Heisenberg

"Nevertheless, the package inserts of commercial oral minoxidil (Loniten) for the treatment of arterial hypertension report pericardial effusion to be a common adverse effect with a frequency of 3% to 5%.":

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9678755/

I would be interested to know what percentage of people are actually doing this:

"Your doctor will want to make regular checks on your blood pressure and general health. You should also have occasional checks on your heart. "

16 minutes ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

They are his patients, it’s not an assumption. They regularly get prescriptions. Why would you fill a prescription for years without taking it, doesn’t make any sense.

Again, these are his patients, he has to write them a prescription. Either they get another prescription, or they tell him that they no longer want to take it, which would prompt the reason why. 

This point makes no sense, if someone is experiencing tachycardia or something severe, they would most certainly know its from minoxidil the minute they speak to a doctor. Now, it’s possible patients experienced minor sides that they didn’t associate with minoxidil, like hypertrichosis or water retention. But these aren’t the sides that most are discussing.

I’m not sure where you’re getting these stats or numbers. If you care to share a source that would be great.

I consulted him myself recently, and he is arranging a prescription of oral minoxidil. He wouldn't have a clue if I take it or not.

The figures that I have mentioned relate to the information provided by the pharmaceutical company that manufactures the drug (it's put inside the box of pills), which was no doubt based on clinical trials etc. It is, for all intents and purposes, a warning. You can read the leaflet yourself here:

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/files/pil.4295.pdf

3 minutes ago, webathon said:

Forget the minoxidil, please seek out a psychiatric professional. 

Case in point.

And now you are trolling this thread. 

21 hours ago, webathon said:

 

You've posted over 6 times in the past hour. You good? If you don't want to take oral then don't take it.

Stop cherry picking from studies to fit your opinion and fear mongering.

Do you have a problem? How about you contribute something constructive to the debate, or is that too much to ask, or is launching ad hominem attacks all you are capable of? Perhaps you can start by pointing towards some clinical study that proves, without a doubt, one is guaranteed against any adverse side effect? Don't have one? Thought so.

Carry on sticking your head in the sand. Good luck with that.

2 hours ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

In this podcast, he said he prescribes oral minoxidil to about 4,000 patients, and only 2-3% have developed side effects that require them to discontinue the drug. He's been prescribing this drug for years. He was the first hair transplant surgeon I remember that started prescribing oral minoxidil. 

My only problem with that is:

1) It assumes all 4,000 patients took the drug.

2) It assumes that the patients that took the drug that experienced side effects all reported that back.

3) It assumes that the patients that took the drug that experienced side effects made the association to oral minoxidil.

4) Pericardial effusion is a common adverse effect with a frequency of 3% to 5%.

16 hours ago, HairEnthusiast101 said:

Does oral minox have some anti androgen properties or is it just simply hair growth and thickness?

It's just a stimulant sadly.

13 minutes ago, webathon said:

 

You've posted over 6 times in the past hour. You good? If you don't want to take oral then don't take it.

Stop cherry picking from studies to fit your opinion and fear mongering.

Yep, I'm fine, thanks.

I'm just expressing legitimate concerns. If you don't like my posts, don't read them.

13 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

 

And this: Very common: may affect more than 1 in 10 people Increased heart rate, inflammation of the lining that surrounds the heart, abnormal electrocardiogram (ECG), increased hair growth, hair colour changes.

I haven't done a ton of looking into oral min because I seem to respond quite well to topical but the sides are definitely concerning... Has it even been conclusively determined that it's better than topical? 

Yes, that's extremely concerning.

When I met Dr Bisanga, I was told to use oral minoxidil, as the alcohol content in Regaine etc. may be giving me hyperkeratosis etc. (him and his clinical colleague both said "It's the alcohol"). I had absolutely no clue that I was suffering from that until then. I also think that the topical version may not be that effective because of the sulfotransferase enzyme issue. I suppose it is easy for him to say, though, as he's not the one swallowing the pills.

 Inflammation of the lining that surrounds the heart is also stated as being "very common". 

10 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

I disagree with Kevin's position on Fin and agree that he is a looney, but there is an old Mossad saying: "Let the crazy speak!". Basically, just because someone seems crazy doesn't mean you shouldn't listen because they may open your mind to a topic or have some glimmer of insight within their craziness. 

So even if Kevin is crazy, it's good to listen to him to get his opinions on things and then you can come to your own conclusions on whether you agree or disagree. He does spend a lot of time forming his opinions and digging into the peer reviewed research. 

Completely agree. He has certainly done his homework.

https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/files/pil.4295.pdf

This is what worries me:

Worth noting, however, that the package inserts/leaflets of commercial oral minoxidil (Loniten) for the treatment of arterial hypertension report pericardial effusion to be a common adverse effect with a frequency of 3% to 5%, which is way too high for me to be comfortable.

On 7/2/2023 at 12:07 AM, LeveledUp said:

Keep an eye on the chest pain mate not worth it if it causes you issues, but hopefully 2.5MG does the trick.

I think my plan by late August/September is to go back to topical if 5MG doesn't make any difference.

I think 9/10 months is more than enough time to know if its working or will be effective.

Just annoying as topical whilst inconvenient at times, gave me noticeable results within say 4 months.

Good video below with Dr. Bevin Bhoyrul of Sinclair Dermatology in Australia.
Not watched it in a few weeks, but recall he mentioned he has a patient on 7.25mg or something similar, with no issues.
Me personally? Im maxing out at 5mg.
 

 

That's an interesting video. At around 43 minutes in, Dr Bhoyrul seems to suggest that, insofar as he is aware, he hasn't had a patient develop pericardial effusion from oral minoxidil, but he is aware of the study that Kevin Mann refers to. I suppose one can't conclusively say that that woman would have not developed pericardial effusion had she not taken the drug, as correlation is not necessarily causation, but it nonetheless seems possible that it was caused by oral minoxidil, especially as the drug seems to interact with one's cardiovascular system.

Just now, RTC said:

who cares what that moron thinks?

He thinks people who experience finasteride side effects are making it up, but has a totally different tune when it comes to Minoxidil.

Total idiot.

I don't think he thinks everyone is making up finasteride side effects. Rather, I think he argues that the nocebo effect may be to blame in some people.

5 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

It really is... I guess this is the cost of trying to play God!

In Kevin's most recent oral min video he says he isn't convinced that oral bypasses the sulfotransferase issue but who knows maybe he is wrong. 

Indeed. Also seems a bit like playing Russian roulette with one's health and wellbeing.

He could well be right. I suppose it could depend on the individual. The side effects depend on the individual too. As noted in that one study, someone developed a serious heart condition after only a few weeks of taking an extremely low dose. One wonders if she ever fully recovered.

Of course, you could end up with serious health problems, only to find that oral minoxidil wasn't effective for you, and only to have embarked on a fools errand.

27 minutes ago, GoliGoliGoli said:

Is there any evidence that oral is better than topical? As in Kevin's most recent video, it does seem logical that saturating the hair follicle with min would be superior than taking orally? 

I get that it's more convenient to take orally, but I'm not at all sold that it produces better results. 

I think why hair surgeons recommend the oral version is because of the alcohol issue (that can lead to inflammation and hyperkeratosis etc.) and the sulfotransferase enzyme issue, but it seems the oral version can cause some really nasty side effects.

Battling hair loss is such a bloody nightmare...  

Just now, TheDarkHour said:

I didn't get any sort of edema. Though I'm definitely not going to up the dosage.

Let us know how you get on. No harm in having a chat with your GP or a cardiologist.

It causes periorbital edema too, which may cause this, and it may not be reversible.  

3 minutes ago, TheDarkHour said:

3 and a half months.

I see.  I would have a chat to your GP about that. Better safe than sorry...

3 minutes ago, TheDarkHour said:

It seems very minor at the moment but if it does get worse I might drop down to 1.25mg. Only happens once every couple of days for a few seconds.

How long have you been on the drug for?

1 minute ago, TheDarkHour said:

It seems very minor at the moment but if it does get worse I might drop down to 1.25mg. Only happens once every couple of days for a few seconds.

I would get it checked out. I think you may still have issues with 1.25mg, as that is the dose that that unfortunate lady was on.

Not sure it is worth risking your health for small gains, if any, in hair density. At the moment, even though I have ordered some oral minoxidil, I am pretty reluctant to take it.