1966kph

Thanks johnboy and Brit for the heads up I am already more concerned about the traveling than the procedure so if I had arrived without the visa it would of been a nightmare.

I seem to atract problems like turds do flies so I will not be at all surprised if things don't go smoothly with everything.

I don't understand why people refuse to see the evidence which consists of so many exhibits and witness statements and still say these results are unachievable unless carried out by a dr

Interesting point when I have been researching I came across - you know how people argue that the dr charges this or that and they should because of all the years of training,the expence ect ect

Look at a site called -company check- it gives you a bit of basic information about companies ,what its value is, how much money it has in the bank, how long its been in buisness ect ect, its free and enlighting, Just enter the company name or even just a person name.

I did a search just out of curiosity on a well known well respected ht dr and it listed 10 companies they have. Can ht surgeons charge a lot less than they do and are they taking advantage of vulnerable people?

Have a nice day all

The ht industry has always been about money and always will be and your probably right about the chain of clinics point. As long as standards stay high I have absolutely no problem with this and its just as dr Karadeniz says if drs have to adpt or sink they will adapt even though he conceded that the results would suffer.

Now the only reason I mention maral in this scenario is I only know of him and one other clinic with the same set up but the name escapes me.

I have seen it a couple of times resently were people have gone to him after multiple surgeries elsewhere and and have stated hands down that marals was by far the best results.Their previous surgery's were all carried out by drs the ones with maral were techs and this coupled with the photographs tell me techs can get very good results.

Bill said it himself before that maral was doing good work and up until very resently was going through the potential recommendation process so thats how much he thought of the results

Were this argument loses real ground is when I read that drs have dexterity or a golden eye or a drs veiws is nonsense.

If as is claimed a dr is better than a tech because of the training and this is the thing that sets them apart how does one explain the differing skill set of drs when they have had the same amount training and education? Is dexterity or the eye of a dr something that is something bestowed to only drs by god its ridiculous.

If you blake go through say 3 years of training in all aspects of ht but during that same time a tech is doing just one part the extractions day in day out who do you think would be the better at extractions? You because you've got the title of dr ? I very much doubt it unless you are naturally gifted at the task.

The title of dr does not automatically mean your going to be a excellent ht dr its the years of experience that determine whether you can cut it as a ht dr.

Blake your a qaulfied dr now do you think just because you have title and with your training thus far you could extract grafts better than marals head tech who has been doing it day in day out for over 10 years ?

I fully appreciate that your going to stand your ground and fight tooth and nail to justify all the hard work that must go in to qualify as a dr.

Marals techs have proven to me to such a degree that not only can they do the extractions but the incisions as well they are doing the same thing every day and have been for years with no dr participation.

Its clear unrefutable evidence that you dont need to be a dr to do fue.

I always have and still do say that a dr should be immediately available in case of any complications but it would be interesting to know how many times maral has been called to the op room because of a complication has arisen.

Answer this please - were are the majority of the members from that make up the ishrs ?

What is the directive dr Karadeniz mentioned hoping to achieve?

Will members who use techs for extractions leave or comply?

Is this directive the US trying to dictate because of the restrictions imposed by US law?

How many US ishrs members would use techs for extractions if the law permitted?

I think you know what my assumptions to these answers would be so could you please try and answer them rather than ignore them?

Have a nice day

Will do tomorrow johnboy.Thanks again for your help what a Muppet eh?

It never crossed my mind I'd need a visa. Derrrr.

Have a good night and all the best with your next ht.

Thanks johnboy.

I have actually just googled it and had a quick read.

Do I have this right I apply for a e visa to the Turkish consolate ?

How much is it? What payment methods do they accept?

My phone ( which I'm typing this on ) is nearly dead so I'll check out the links you kindly provided tomorrow.

Thank you for taking the trouble to help me it is much appreciated.

Have a good day

Did not realise I needed a visa and don't even know how or were to apply for one. HELP !

I am flying from Manchester direct to Ataturk airport with Turkish airlines.

Its 4 hours going and 4 hours 20 minutes on way back it must be up hill on the way back.

Sounds like you have gone a bit hair mad squeezing all them ht's into 4 years.

Look forward to seeing your pics if you choose to post some up.

Have a good day

Thanks for the reassurance.

To be honest its not the ht that concerns me most its the traveling as I've only ever flown a few times and I always had company.

Are you hoping to have the scar excised or put fue into it?

How long ago was your first ht?

This next one going to be your last do you think?

Have a good evening.

Yes I will Jonny I feel I owe it to the community to pay back and do what others have done to help me learn.Looks like we'll be going through this together butyour a pro at this im a virgin.

Well I'm finally gonna loose my cherry I hope its not to rough but I guess I will see soon enough.

Have you or rather would you say were the clinics were you have been to in the past?

Have a good day

I use my phone 90% of the time when posting so it just comes Erdoğan in predictive text are you trying to say I'm Turkish?

There not clever words and are relevant to the thread topic.

What am I saying thats not on topic? You high light tech involvement and I point out that the states would if at all possible use the same business model as that employed by Erdoğan and Lorenzo and I asked two US drs if they would stick to the rules they currently have to abide by or use techs more if they could.

I was hoping blake or dr vories would reply.

I also asked you about the tech you mentioned do you know what became of him?

Did he stay within the industry.What amount of training was he receiving? How long was his training ect ect. It would be interesting if you elaborate on training techniques for techs and I'm sure there's more than myself that is interested.

Have a good day

Hello johnyboy.

Checked out your profile but there's no photos do you not post photos?

So your going at the end of February I'm flying the 6th of march pity we could not of met up there.

Photos would of been good as your obviously happy with results.

Have a nice day.

Thank you for the answer your answer is what I've heard before.

I've seen quite a few cases were fut had been done presumably because fue wasn't a option.

Jamie fox springs to mind.

Have a good day

Nice result I'm sure he must be happy.

Dr vories is the transection rate of 6% higher or lower or average to what you would ordinarily see with a African American hair type?

Have a good day

Hello payens.

Yes I think it is a good clinic otherwise I would not be going there.

You need to research not just rely on the say so of others.

In my case I have substantial hair loss that I think maral can address to my liking.

I probably need about 6000 grafts to achieve a good look but it depends what my donor area can provide.

To get the 6000 I would have to go for two procedures but I may be content with the results from one.

I'm to long in the tooth to start chasing hair thats been gone 25 years.

You decide what is best for you based on the research you've done.

Have a good day

Hello payens88.

No I have no experience first hand with this clinic but I will have in early march when I am going there so you have your answer as to whether I think the clinic is good or not.

I suggest if you are interested in any clinic you concentrate you research into them to see if it is what you are looking for and if its not focus elsewhere.

There's plenty of threads regarding marals clinic that will give you a good insight in to what to expect I suggest you concentrate your research looking there.

Hope this helps you out.

Have a good day

Hello dr Karadeniz.

I'm a little confused as in the quote below you say that you would be prepared to follow the same business setup as Erdoğan, Lorenzo ect ect if the market dictated you had to. And I appreciate that you would not say it is for quality purposes.

The point is how many of us before being made aware of it actually noticed a decline in the quality of the work produced by Lorenzo or Erdoğan?

So you are prepared to follow the example set by others who you are somewhat berating even though you think your results will suffer and your patients will not get the best possible results. Your not going to do it now but when needs must.

This just goes to echoe my point that if in the US there was the same opportunity's to follow the very successful business model as Lorenzo and Erdogan how many of the US drs would stick with the old limitations ? Dr karadeniz a big advocate of non technician extractions says he would use them if needs be.

So just to some up you start a thread to high light something you are prepared to do your self but want other drs booted out of the ishrs for doing it ?

Blake and vories what about you two are you gonna say whether you would stick to your principles or would you yield to market forces if the shackles were removed off the US ht industry to allow techs to do extractions ?

Most importantly what I take from this dr Karadeniz is that its not the patients best interest you ultimately have at heart if you are prepared to do something you admit give them a inferior result. I am not trying to have a go at you for admitting as much as its being done by some of the best in the world and IMO they have managed to maintain a very high standard and that is the point I'm trying to make.

Have a nice day all.

I may not reverse the blowing wind, but I certainly can share my opinion. The reason why 'top doctors' use technicians is very simple: their growing business dictates that they must do multiple procedures a day. It is not possible to increase the price per patient more after a certain limit, however it is easy to increase the number of patients when using technicians. It is much more profitable to do multiple procedures a day even if the price is reduced.

 

You are right. The blowing wind may end up all 'top doctors' using technicians one day. If this is what the market dictates then I may end up in the same way. However I will never claim that this is for quality; it will be the results of my growing business and the blowing wind that I were unable to withstand. I will do my best to keep the quality high, but I will know that it is impossible to clone my abilities by training a technician; just as it is impossible to clone the abilities of the other doctors you mentioned.

 

It is an illusion that trained technicians can do the job with the same excellence as an expert surgeon and the only thing that matters is doing the incisions. This claim is the fruits of a doctor being able to cope with 3-4 patient incisions a day. When that clinic has 8-10 patients a day then they will claim just doing the markings is enough and the incisions can also be taught to technicians. Who can claim that a talented technician can't learn how to do good incisions? There is no end to this.

Hello samj.

This is very very poor to say the least are you going to say which clinic gave you basically no result ?

As already stated with that amount of grafts you should of been looking like a different person.

Apart from the communication you mentioned have you had any other with your dr ?

I feel for you I really do.

IMO who ever it is they should take a leef out of dr meshkins book and just give you your money back.

Unfortunately he can't give you back the wasted grafts.

Please could you tell a fuller story if there is one? Give as much detail as possible.

Have a good day

Hello hairware.

You are right about not knowing who the two docs were and I asked him who they were but as yet he has not answered this.

I agree he must of had at least enough hair available to do the procedures but the result he has got are looking very promising at 9 months which I assume you are not disagreeing with given what you said.

From what I have seen this is not a one off and marals techs have at least 30 patients who have posted their results now I dont know how many you have seen but they have some good results especially on the higher norwood cases.

Obviously cost enters into the equation so look at it from this point if they had to go elsewhere how much would they be paying?

If they cannot afford to say pay anything more than 5k anything above this budget is taken out of the equation.Then say for the 5k they can only get 3000 grafts again they could see this as not meeting their needs of addressing the loss to the extent they desire.

But most importantly out of all this is that I see the results and this above all is what matters is it not? And how many of marals patients are unhappy with their results? And how many are happy again they've achieved happiness at the hands of techs under the planning and guidance and supervision of dr maral.I hope I end up in the same way but we all know there's no gauntee even going to the best and paying 20k.

Were are the most the most members of the ishrs based? I will hazard a guess the US were they are very limited in their capability to use techs by law now if as I guess the biggest number of members are in the US does it not stand to reason they would want to vote in favour of limiting tech involvement to take away the advantage foreign members have?

I agree with dr Karadeniz if they dont sign up to the directive they should leave the ishrs and if they do sign they should adhere to it.

We all choose were to go and I'm not going to dictate to someone were they should or should not go to and were ever they decide I wish them all the best and I hope they find happiness. So far there's about 30 people who got their happiness at hands of techs and that is the biggest plus I take from this not that it was achieved at ridiculously low cost.

I would never condone a clinic such as the ones dr Karadeniz talks of were any Muppet is let loose to savage someone's head and ruin theirs lives I think its appauling it is allowed to happen. I would argue that marals clinic is a million miles apart from such places in just about every regard.

I asked dr Karadeniz to elaborate on the tech he was helping with training but he hasn't yet so if you could please dr Karadeniz ?

I'm glad this has thread is managing to stay for the most part on track without the usual insults and insinuations that usually occur.

Have a good day

The case you cite is an extraordinary one and those who go to this clinic with the expectation of similar results are leaving themselves open to dashed dreams and disappointment. We are not informed who the two doctors were that turned him down, nor do we know whether they had any expertise in FUE. Certainly if a microscopic evaluation was performed the extremely thick density of the donor area as well as favorable hair shaft caliber would have been readily identified. You can't get water from a stone nor can you extract 6000 FUs from a zone previously exhausted from 3 previous FUTs so it is fair to assume that similar results could have been obtained from any doctor specializing in FUE. That it was achieved at such a bargain is the real story for that particular individual. Personally, I wouldn't have taken the chance myself but the outcome speaks louder than words and obviously the HT Gods were looking down on him during his procedure.

The important point is that YMWV where ever you decide to go and the old investment adage, "past results do not guarantee future performance" holds true in the HT business as well. The point that has been made repeatedly here is that many informed prospective patients attempt to control as many variables as possible even if one has to spend more to do so. Those that view FUE as a technician dispensed commodity are more likely to select a clinic based on price alone and hope that "what you get is what you pay for" will not necessarily apply to their particular outcome.

Who said anything about removing him the dr from the equation?

I have always maintained that a doctor should always be on the premises in case of complications.

This is another point with regard to marals practice apart from not doing 20 minutes work doing incisions to match the amount of time Erdoğan does on each patient and a tech does it were are the differences in the actual process?

Whether maral is behind his desk or Erdoğan is doing incisions or sat behind his desk maybe doing a consultation they are both not in the op room and the same could be said for most multi patients per day practice's.

In the case I mentioned about the donor being left open the complication which is basically a foot long gaping wound and the patient is sent home unaware of it.What did the doc do there?

Two docs turn a patient away then marals techs does two fue sessions and takes 6000+ grafts that supposedly were there was not meant to be any,

9 months out a very good result is immerging.

I would never and have never said to someone that they should go here or there its their decision that should be based on as much research as possible.

Without a doubt most of these places in Turkey that dr Karadeniz talks of should not exist but you yourself bill were until very resently considering maral for potential recommendation knowing full well what the set up was there with maral not being hands on.

You also said a while back bill that he was doing some very good work but I think you thought at that time the work was being done by him so thats the standard we are talking about here.

I'm going to maral in just under a month thats how much faith I have in his set up and the possibility of getting a good result.

Have a good day all

Who was the doc gram?

Does anyone know of other doctors that do this?

Its obviously a good idea IMO.

Have a good day

Very good point and one I've heard raised before in regard to the test procedure.

One of marals patients has just done his second procedure with maral he is 9 months after his first with IMO very good results.

Now to the point when he went to maral he had been and consulted at least two drs both of whom said he was a poor candidate and turned him away as he had three previous fut surgery's

I would suggest that maral has helped this chap as he states he is very happy after first having started with fut in 1994.

This is all us sufferers look for a solution for our problem and he's got it at the hands of techs.

I do not contend that all tech clinics are going to give good results and from what you describe happens in your country probably 99% of the time its going to be a disaster going to these clinics.

How many of these clinics are capable of giving results like the example I gave I have not got a clue.

The clinics you describe dr Karadeniz are not technician clinics as technician means someone with skill and artistry if they are a technician its not within the ht industry and they have no place within it.

As I have said before your country's short comings in regulating the industry is the biggest crime.

Have a good day

Another fact:

FUE does not work on everybody. In some patients we can tell that it is unlikely to work, however in some patients we only find out after we do an FUE test. What I mean by FUE test is actually starting the operation and doing 100-200 grafts to find out about the transection rate and the quality of grafts. If I find out that the results of the test are unfavourable, I stop the procedure. I recommend doing FUT or totally cancel the procedure.

 

Now, I think this should be a standard approach. How do we fit this in with technicians FUE? More importantly, how do we fit this in with FUE-only clinics. Without the chance of a doctor doing these evaluations and/or doing FUT, how do we think these clinics actually deal with these unlucky patients? Technician clinics will surely butcher these patients. I am not sure if FUE-only clinics , even if the doctor does the extractions, will stop these operations, give the patient his money back and recommend them to go to a FUT surgeon.

You dont work alone dr Karadeniz you are aided by techs.

Just because someone has a different opinion why do you insinuate they are a rep of a clinic or a troll? Its insulting and unnecessary.

This is a good civil debate let's try and keep it so.

Have a good day

All of this points to the basic number one we as patients should do and that is research as much as possible and ask as many questions to get the answers before we commit to move forward with the procedure.

What I see developing here is a clear pattern were doctors are prepared to come to this thread and say this or that so are they prepared to stand up in front of the next ishrs meeting and state what they say here?

If you think that a drs practice is doing wrong by their patients would you be prepared to stand up and be counted?

We members of the forum see a lot of double standards that go unchallenged and no one held to account over their actions.

We had a case a while back were the thread starter asked for opinions on a dr who had let the patient know he would not be present during all the procedure.

It was a strip procedure and if I remember right the doc was going to suture the donor then leave the premises and as I understand it would not be returning that day.

This was in the US so I would like to know was any inquires made by moderators here to ascertain who this dr was so he could be warned of his conduct in the future?

We had a case were the donor was left open and the patient was not informed of the complications and sent home oblivious until five days post op so what happened to this doc?

A dr being in the same room during the whole procedure is being slowly consigned to the history books in just about all countries apart from the states.

Patients could not care less a lot of the time whether the dr spends 40 minutes as dr Erdogan does in two day procedures on the same patient as long as they are happy with the results.

Like I've said the fue ht industry is in decline because people go abroad and they do not care for the most part who is doing what.

The excellent results while saving thousands are what lure them there.

If the US is to compete it must adapt because one thing is for sure the world ht industry is not going to go in reverse to match what the US does and why should it.

Drs defending their amount of involvement is only coming from US drs and a dr Karadeniz who has his sales aimed at people who want total dr participation why do we think this is.

Do we think that the drs who do not comply with the ishrs directive will give a damn if they are exiled from its ranks?

The US ht industry needs to catch up with the current best exponents of fue nearly all of who have far more tech involvement.Argue all you want and I'm sure in country the size of the US with the size of its population and the limited number of ht drs you won't go short of customers.

The current state gives the consumer the opportunity if they are prepared to travel the chance of excellent work at a fraction of the cost.

It used to be patients would be going to the states now there coming from the states.

This business is not about what the drs want its what the customers want and its clear more and more are not wanting what the states have to offer.

Have a good day

Blake I have had a post pulled about a hour ago could you please check it out

Some very good points raised and to start with I agree dr Karadeniz if the drs have to sign up and in so doing giving their word that they will adhere to the ishrs directive they should keep their word or don't sign and walk away.

The case with the tech you were training dr if you could elaborate a little further, How long was he training for before starting to yeild descent results from extractions ? Hour many hours on average a week do you think he was doing extractions as I'm presuming he wasn't doing them all the time. Did he have any kind of prior medical training or did he come from a different profession? Do you know what became of him after you left transmed? I presume this was when you were at transmed ?

The times are changing there's no doubt about it and to be honest I have not seen any decline in the outstanding results produced by the clinics that have chosen to use technicians for extractions.

One other benefit to their business model is that more suffers are getting help and for me the easing of peoples suffering is the number one priority.

Thank you for being respectful in your previous response dr Karadeniz as I'm sure some of my comments cut you to the bone as at times I am brutally honest.

Have a nice day

You are right ko I have taken threads off topic so I try to avoid doing it I'm guilty as charged.

Do you not think that me asking asmed to post dry pre op photos is important or do you want to carry on a argument that is going on else where?

I am not trying to get anyone to gloss over anything so if you so wish fire away.

But dont accuse of not trying to stop on topic.

Have a good day

What do you mean this is not the place to discuss this? This is the elephant in the room, and you want the moderators to gloss over it? You want to discuss Maral everywhere, on unrelated threads, but now you change the topic? Odd

 

Btw, what is Maral doing when HT surgeries are going on?