Mat16

2 hours ago, Ronnieman said:

Well I use essengen 6, the topical fin/min combo and have no issues with it. It works well.

Everyone seems to think minoxidilmax is bad, but I have found that company to be fine.

Would love to hear a review of Duderma

Man I would love for it to be okay. I don’t know if I should just jump for it and order. Kind of my last hope regarding to maintaining meds…

Also I have just found this:

https://www.minoxidilmax.com/topical-dutasteride-without-minoxidil-Duderma
 

which is quite cheap and shipped to Europe. What are your thoughts on this?

1 hour ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

^This, the vehicle is SUPER important when it comes to topicals. Something that absorbs quickly will go systemic and defeat the purpose of using a topical. 

Xyon if you’re in the US/Canada or Farmacia Parati if you’re in Europe, best way to go IMO. 

 

Okay I understand. And what about the dosage and frequency of use?

Hello, I have just found a website called hemiacosmetics and they sell topical dutasteride (Dutagen 50ml, 0.1% dutasteride, 1mg of dutasteride in 1ml of the liquid). I would like to ask you if you know this seller and how often should this be applied to maximise positive effects while minimising risk of side effects (I had sides on low dose of oral fin).

18 hours ago, Rafael Manelli said:

You're a Norwood 2 with receded temple points. Your hair looks straight and fine. You're receding young, and it might be aggressive. Finasteride has been ruled out. 

None of these are good signs. 

Diagnosis complete. That'll be $99 thanks. Jk

Try topical dutasteride. It might restore those shrinkers at the front. 

People telling you to wait until some arbitrary age to get an HT are just regurgitating what they've heard, to be honest. It's not that they're wrong, strictly speaking, but it's not a bit lazy in terms of advice. 

What's the point of waiting? So you can see how bad it'll get in ten years? It could still get worse even in 20 years. And if you wait to become a Norwood 5 and then get 5000 grafts, how is that any different from getting 5000 grafts now and then eventually becoming nw5 (but with transplants)? It's the same end result but you don't have to deal with many years of highly visible baldness if you get the transplant upfront. This isn't the advice most people will give you but take it or leave it. 

Your hair is falling out. It will continue to fall out without DHT meds. Topical finasteride or dutasteride is your best bet. Personally I'd suggest dut. It's stronger and apparently less systemic, so fewer sides. 

Your hair still looks pretty good. But I understand wanting back a wicked Norwood 1. You could get it, you know. It could be done. If you keep your hair that short, you probably want a fue rather than a fut. If you lock yourself into a Norwood 1 hairline, you're going to have to risk the possibility you'll need to keep getting surgeries to recoup any further loss you experience, and eventually you may run out of grafts have to settle for a bald crown. 

My opinion is it's worth settling for a bald crown in ten or twenty years, while maintaining a great hairline until then and after. I'd rather have that, than tolerate balding for ten years, only to restore a modest nw3 hairline and dense crown afterwards. But that's just me. 

Personally I'm a techno optimist. I'd be surprised if any of this matters in twenty years. Better/more solutions will be available. People will say don't rely on future technology, but that's just me. 

If all else fails you can just get a prosthesis. 

Also I would like to ask, if there is a typical regimen regarding topical dut. I am curious if it is alright to use it for example just once/twice or three times a week and not everyday.

4 hours ago, JayLDD said:

If he has an endless budget, I would certainly agree. 

If he's a regular person being on the hook for a surgery with a high level surgeon every 2-3 years at 24 years this isn't particularly realistic. 

There's risk of a poor result too which would further the requirement of chasing losses. You should always have money for both the procedure AND a backup in my opinion, higher order for someone at his age. 

A "great hairline" with a bald crown doesn't work. No one has a black hole at the back with a dense NW1 hairline. If he goes for a high density NW1 for it to appear natural he will have to at least provide thin but relatively complete coverage in the midscalp and crown. Certainly the midscalp as well.

I think your techo-optimism is doing a lot of heavy lifting. But again, if he has the money (his parents happy to shell out 50k no questions asked for example) I would personally go for it. 

Currently the science in this area is an embarrassment when it comes to the future, the only promising treatments involve essentially cloning grafts and transplanting them. Which of course would be wildly expensive. Same goes for any wildcards that arrive, even if they eventually exist you have no idea whether or not they'll be affordable. 

Well I am not really in a situation where I could evaluate how I will manage financially in the future. I’m sure though that the first round would be very fine. I have got some quotes from some surgeons before and it was around 3000-3500€. And they were recommended surgeons on this forum. But the idea to have a better hairline (I’m not saying I want classic Norwood 1, I just want to strengthen my current one, not necessary lower it) is really appealing to me.

6 hours ago, Rafael Manelli said:

You're a Norwood 2 with receded temple points. Your hair looks straight and fine. You're receding young, and it might be aggressive. Finasteride has been ruled out. 

None of these are good signs. 

Diagnosis complete. That'll be $99 thanks. Jk

Try topical dutasteride. It might restore those shrinkers at the front. 

People telling you to wait until some arbitrary age to get an HT are just regurgitating what they've heard, to be honest. It's not that they're wrong, strictly speaking, but it's not a bit lazy in terms of advice. 

What's the point of waiting? So you can see how bad it'll get in ten years? It could still get worse even in 20 years. And if you wait to become a Norwood 5 and then get 5000 grafts, how is that any different from getting 5000 grafts now and then eventually becoming nw5 (but with transplants)? It's the same end result but you don't have to deal with many years of highly visible baldness if you get the transplant upfront. This isn't the advice most people will give you but take it or leave it. 

Your hair is falling out. It will continue to fall out without DHT meds. Topical finasteride or dutasteride is your best bet. Personally I'd suggest dut. It's stronger and apparently less systemic, so fewer sides. 

Your hair still looks pretty good. But I understand wanting back a wicked Norwood 1. You could get it, you know. It could be done. If you keep your hair that short, you probably want a fue rather than a fut. If you lock yourself into a Norwood 1 hairline, you're going to have to risk the possibility you'll need to keep getting surgeries to recoup any further loss you experience, and eventually you may run out of grafts have to settle for a bald crown. 

My opinion is it's worth settling for a bald crown in ten or twenty years, while maintaining a great hairline until then and after. I'd rather have that, than tolerate balding for ten years, only to restore a modest nw3 hairline and dense crown afterwards. But that's just me. 

Personally I'm a techno optimist. I'd be surprised if any of this matters in twenty years. Better/more solutions will be available. People will say don't rely on future technology, but that's just me. 

If all else fails you can just get a prosthesis. 

I’d be very happy to be able to take finasteride. I have tried three times and it just didn’t work for me. 
Where do you think I could get topical dut in Europe for a good price. Oral minoxidil is very expensive so I cant really add something that expensive to my portfolio right now  I really like your take on having the nice hairline now and to settle for a worse condition in 10-20 years but majority of this forum doesn’t agree with that so I’m on the verge here

And are there any other opinions on when at soonest could I get a small restoration done? Just to strengthen my hairline and temples. I have heard and read everywhere that the threshold is around 25yo and now I’m already 24…

30 minutes ago, BeHappy said:

Have you tried topical finasteride?

 

No I have not but I’ve heard that if someone gets sides on oral there’s I high probability the same happens with topical. And also my living situation would not allow me to put it on my hair every day 

I mean you don’t have to tell me you see a non-balding head. I have been living with this hair for quite a long time and I could see parts of it just go away so😂. However, I would like to know how much time (at least approximately) I have in this current state. And if it is wise to stop oral minoxidil even if I can’t take finasteride.

maybe some advice how to overcome the sides and go on it again

18 minutes ago, Lego123 said:

O.5 mg reduces dht as much as 1mg tbh maybe try 0.25 every other day . I

I tried it at last but I still thought something was wrong

2 minutes ago, Lego123 said:

What sides did you get on fin?

Well to be honest my erections were so much softer than before. Even after taking just 0.5mg 

Hello lads, 

I am almost 24 and my current and past hair situation can be seen in photos below. First 5 photos were taken today (red shirt) and other photos were taken 2-3 years ago.
 

I would like to know your opinion on how much time you think I have before my crown goes away (also other parts but I just recently noticed the crown is thinner). I tried taking finasteride three times but every time I got unbearable sides so I stopped pursuing. I have been taking oral minoxidil for over a year now (2.5mg 5x a week) but I am thinking about stopping because I have not noticed any improvement (I believe the noticeable difference in my front is due to a new barber who cuts it in a way for it to be even) and it is quite expensive. 
 

What are your opinions guys? When could I have a little procedure done? How much time do you think I have left with my crown and temples?

any insights are gratefully welcome.

cheers

On 4/19/2022 at 10:01 AM, Mat16 said:

.

What if I can’t tolerate finasteride? When would be the time to have the first procedure done?

8 hours ago, mafpe said:

thank you for linking this, this is very educational, honestly i've known about the correlation but it broken down like this makes it easier to understand and lessen guesses.

the only thing that's left is how much is needed effectively which he said isn't conclusive yet (but his graph gave us the numbers on how much DHT reduction we would be subjected to generally so you can choose from these levels).

i found these numbers from hairguard/medihair respectively, but unfortunately i didn't find the actual scientific study, nor am i savvy enough to delve into them 

 

but... if these are right then i think microdosing around 0.01mg give the best scalp to serum DHT level, meaning the best effect on hair with negligible to almost no side to GENERAL POPULACE, or at least, according to the test subjects, although the dose is very small that despite it helping with hair loss, the effect isn't pronounced much as the dose we normally take, lets say only 20% as effective *this is a guesstimate by looking at the graft.

that said, we don't know YET which dose would be great for general. i suppose from the second graft, taking 0.2mg instead of 1mg daily is already 90% as effective while only consuming 20% of the dose, this is only for the efficacy however.

 

DISCLAIMER, I AM NOT A 'RESEARCHER', AND THESE NUMBERS I FOUND MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE
so take my writing with a ton of salt and do read, research, and think for your own, this is just my correlation, and to have at least a basis instead of blind guesses,

my take is if you are unaffected or doesn't care about the side effect, you can go the usual dose you're using that is effective, and it's recommended at our usual 1mg (this is just a baseline however, everyone have different reaction as some people here say they even take more than 1mg, or its ineffective that they need dutasteride instead)

1. if you are largely unaffected and or just want to take it safe, 0.2mg daily looks like a good dose as it might lower the risk.

2.if you want the best scalp to serum (blood?) ratio, lessening the risk of side effect,
.01mg to 0.05mg daily is good, with 0.05mg having the same effectiveness as higher doses ON THE SCALP (for hair, this is what we're looking for).
*probably with the less effect it has on our serum, the lesser the side effect, as Rob's video explains that people with 0.01, the side effect is miniscule

i would probably try at 0.05mg (around 1/20 usual dose) in stages, as im taking 1mg daily, i'm gonna reduce the dosage slowly, unfortunately i have no idea how it's going to really affect me unless i become a clinical study patient.

as dr rob said, topical solution also doesn't mean that you're safe from side effect, as its absorbed systemically so it would still get into your body not just the head, but it's hoped that with small enough dose, the amount of finas that gets into our body systemically is negligible compared to the amount that is absorbed in the head.

 

would love to get input from people researching about this and their finding.

So you’re basically saying that taking 0.05mg would be still effective in preventing further loss?

If that is the thing, I will have to find a way to get it in that dose ASAP since I cannot even tolerate 0.5mg three times a week

1 hour ago, Aslitarcan sucks said:

What's the side effect out of interest?

well, softer erections to be honest…

23 minutes ago, Gatsby said:

You might be better off switching to topical finsteride than dutasteride if you are having a side effect on low dose finasteride.

Yeah definitely I have been reading this a lot but the thought of having to apply some topical each and every day is really not possible for me…

On 4/17/2022 at 9:06 PM, Mat16 said:

and what about this conservative design? With the minimum amount of grafts possible? Would it also be dangerous?

.

Hello lads, 

does anyone here, who had side effects on finasteride switched to dutasteride side effects free? Cause I am having minor side effect (just one) on finas even low dose so I need to find an alternative to be able to have a procedure in future. 

Thnks

and what about this conservative design? With the minimum amount of grafts possible? Would it also be dangerous?

18 minutes ago, MAIZE1694 said:

Show us recent pics of the crown. Because if its anything close to the thread from 2021 well then you ain't bald lol. Not even close.

Take a look at some of the patient threads on here of actual legit NW 4,5,6 guys. You should stay on FIN and reevaluate in a few years. (IMO)

Here are the photos.

On 4/12/2022 at 12:20 AM, JayLDD said:

I took 0.25mg  daily and side effects slowly crept up after about two years before I got off it. So you can't place that much stock in the drug in the short term, that's the problem. The reduction curve of DHT doesn't change much from 0.25mg to 1mg, so even if just for the sake of cost savings its always best to quarter the pill. To be blunt, if you suffered side effects in the past I'd recommend you don't push it. As I mentioned no matter the dosing pattern or doseage itself the reduction in DHT will be similar, if your body can't tolerate 1mg I'd avoid it entirely. Don't push it when your body is clearly telling you to avoid it. 

In terms of graft numbers, basically *any* hairline procedure with good density is going to be at minimum 1500 grafts. Simply because it requires a lot of single hair grafts and the frontal hairline requires the highest density across the scalp. Any less and it will begin to look a little pluggy or unnatural as your current hair behind it is still quite youthful and dense. 

Its less about age and more about the possibilities you're setting up with the procedure and the potential risks it might create. A small hairline procedure (even 1000 grafts) is the riskiest procedure you can possibly do because it means you're going to create a dense, healthy hair barrier at the very front meanwhile everything behind it is miniaturising. A strip of hairline isn't going to give you coverage to cover up thinning hair, hence why ideally your first surgery should cover the entire frontal third, or at the very least you should be budgeting and planning for two surgeries over say a three to five year period.  Its not a matter of 2000 grafts being aggressive and that you should consider say 1000-1500, its the TYPE of procedure for someone in your position that is young and hasn't tolerated finasteride well is high risk and keeps you on the hook for future surgery. What you want is to tackle the frontal third with 3-4000 grafts when you actually have significant losses at the point where you're a NW3+. 

Freitas certainly knows what he's doing but he's going to have an expectation that you have made an assessment of the risks and at the day he's not going to babysit you over those potential problems. At the end of the day problems arising that I've mentioned will have you on the hook for more surgery, and he isn't going to worry about this. 

I think the best thing you can do is wait a few years until you're clearly a NW3 and can fix the entire frontal third and in the meantime budget for multiple procedures, enough to pay for 6000 grafts with a surgeon like Freitas. I wouldn't bank on finasteride.  Money and willingness to do multiple surgeries with back up plans are more important than anything here. 

In terms of another individual here saying that you might not have genuine hairloss, they have no idea what they're talking about, you should absolutely be preparing for significant losses over the next five years and at the very least be using something like a ketoconazole shampoo to inhibit that (in general circumstances I would also say finasteride, but because you didn't tolerate it previously I wouldn't lean in that direction). Why do I say that? Because you clearly have miniaturising hair in the frontal hairline and from what you've said the crown as well. Also the recommendation of visiting a dermatologists is pointless, for the most part they'll have no idea what they're talking about, from the photos and what you've said its clear you have male pattern baldness, you don't need a doctor to tell you this, nor for them to tell you about treatment.

Well definitely I know I have a hair loss problem, advanced hair loss though. People who say my hair is perfect, though it’s comforting, should take a look at my old photos from past threads on my profile. I know the surgery might be very risky at the age of 24-25 but honestly, I cannot imagine how my life will look like without it cause I’m honestly starting to be afraid of summer due to the continuous sun shining and revealing my baldness.

Do you think that maybe only a small procedure without any hairline lowering like in the picture with black lines attached could be possible? With the minimum amount of grafts possible?

btw, the picture is from approximately two years ago when I cut my hair short and I’m sure my hair loss advanced from that stage. 
 

here I am also attaching a link to my previous thread with other photos of my hair from past: 

8 minutes ago, John1991 said:

OK then.  In the pictures you posted here, you don't appear to be losing hair. It's not uncommon for small amounts of recession to occur in your early 20s - that's not necessarily a sign that you're going to suffer bad hair loss, much less bad hair loss soon.  I experienced that at 23-24 (probably slightly more than you have), and didn't even get on finasteride until years after that.  I'm 31 now and my hair has hardly changed since then.  

Well these are very comforting words thanks

1 hour ago, John1991 said:

I agree with your assessment that he should wait before pursuing surgery.  Especially until after he knows if finasteride can stabilize him. It doesn't actually appear to me that he needs to be "stabilized," though.  He doesn't appear to be someone who is on the verge of minor hair loss, much less precipitous loss.  This guy looks like a normal 23 year old, with a strong hairline.  It may or may not recede,  but nothing in these pictures really indicates that it will and I would hesitate to call this a "mature" hairline.  

When I style it carefully, I can somehow hide the balding. However, under a harsh light as you can see (might as well be sun also) my temples are standing out so much. In the dark it’s usually fine. But your opinion about my balding is not correct sorry (I would be very happy if it was) but you can take a look on my older threats where I have shared photos from approximately two years ago, and you can see the balding there (I had shorter hair then).

4 hours ago, Gatsby said:

From my own experience of having more loss and surgery at a younger age (18) I cannot stress upon you the regrets that you will have going down the path of surgery now by the time you are 27/28. After this it just gets worse as the hair loss continues. I know this is not what you want to hear and neither did I. So please learn from what I went through and have surgery when the time is right. You really want to be a good responder to finasteride, etc. All the best!

Thanks Gatsby. Normally, after what I have learned here, I would never think about having the procedure before 25.  Just when dr Freitas suggested it I thought he probably knows what he’s talking about. Not sure anymore :)