Mark H

I try to have a hot shower, but keep the bathroom as cool as possible. The foam is really finicky, and likes a colder room temp. Dry your head good, cool your hand down, apply, and I think you've done everything you can to get that stuff inside your head. I actually think the directions discourage a hot shower, but I suspect thats for reasons of application, not efficacy. Why after all would you want to discourage circulation to your head. mark

I had minor pain while my stitches where taken out, and I'm here to tell you, it was so good to get them out that I actually enjoyed that pain! And I'm not that kind of guy. mark h

Thx for that Bay. If memory serves, Dr. Pickart is the one that formulated the spray that i just started using tonight. Speaking of which. I'm behind the learning curve on applying this stuff. I'm pretty mediocre at putting on the minox too, but the morning application is the one I do carefully and it looks okay since I don't have much hair anyway right now. However, tonight I put way too much CP on, and that stuff really gunks up your hair. My suggestion if you work is not to put this crap on until you get home. Anyway I try to keep more than 4 hours between applications. Tonight then I applied minox, and I ended up with a green head that made me look like the saturday night live CHIA HEAD. Now, thats not a big deal, I'm at home where I make a fool of myself daily anyway, but I'm hoping I can get a bit better at this...yuk. mark

Interesting contribution Jake. Based on your quote, it would appear that CP's will do everything but simonize my car. I'm committed to continuing minox and propecia for as long as I live, the CP treatment right now is strictly post HT, that could change, but once my hair is long, this stuff is going to be difficult to apply without looking like I'm wearing 30 weight oil. mark

Hey, can someone tell me how I can add an avatar? everyone seems to have one, and I can't see where to add it?

As for me, I have Cooleyosity. mark h

Bill, I do have serious concerns that the spray that I'm using is an appropriate formulation. I ought to be able to find out what's in it, and how that compares to research results, which while limited are very positive. I weight that research far more than the anecdotal experiences mentioned...those are all over the place. You have to wonder if some of these people are drinking the stuff. The point about CP not growing new hair is far from clear, it may or may not, but the strongest evidence I've seen is that it shortens Telogen. As a side note, new research seems to point at the same thing for Minoxidil, although I know for a fact that it grew new hair at my hairline using 2 per cent years ago...something its not even spec'd to do. Finally, I think the issue of cost is a chimera: if you spend up to $20,000 or more on your hair, 70 bucks to make it grow stronger or faster is completely irrelevant to the discussion, only the efficacy of the application matters. I used CP the first 2 weeks post HT, and I've used the shampoo, and now Ive gone full metal jacket along with minox and Propecia. I'll be posting 2 month results soon...maybe we'll see a little early action. I absolutely agree that minox and propecia are the front line soldiers. mark h

Well the description clearly states it IS a copper peptide solution, and that is in fact the active ingredient even tho it isn't discreetly listed, so I agree their inconsistent in their labeling. Now I have rec'd exactly the opposite advice you have Bill, so there you have it. I would add, that it is largely in reducing the telogenic phase that CP's are helpful, and therefore much more useful post HT, than post +1 year for example, although I could see uses for both. I just used it for the first time a few minutes ago....kinda stings...makes my hair...what there is of it, a bit green. Thats okay, I only use it in the evening. I'm using it directly in between minoxidil applications, so that Minoxidil gets more than 4 hours to work before CP's are added, then the second minox happens late at night more than 4 hours after CP's were applied. I think I went a bit heavy on this first application. I'm going to be a little lighter on the pump tomorrow. mark

B spot, I crack myself up continuously, and the slices of baloney in my shoes even make me FEEL funny. mark

Yup. Check out the threads on rogaine and copper peptides. You can do some things to try and even it out faster by trying to reduce the Telogen phase. mark

Bay, are you quoting someone's work? You don't say. Based on what I've read, the conclusions are stated a bit more strongly than I would think current research supports, but I could be wrong. That said, I tend to believe them. My understanding is that the foam Rogaine does not contain the irritants that the liquid does, and that is my personal experience as well, although it takes some experience to work with it for best results. as noted above, the Folica guy couldn't even tell me which ingredient contains the copper peptides, but based on his description i'd go with the protein component, which according to the rules of ingredient listing is a very harge part of the solution's make up. That bodes well, but doesn't allow us to measure the product against anyone's research results. mark

I got this response from folica...not entirely satisfying... Mark - To answer your question. Generally speaking, peptides are small fragments of proteins. (And the proteins are the building blocks of most living tissues including the hair folicle.) Certain kinds of peptides have an avid affinity for copper, to which they bind very tightly. The resulting compound consisting of a peptide and a copper atom has become known as a copper peptide. It is these proteins that are in the Foliigen Solution Spray. I am not able to confirm the amount of copper peptides contained in the solution. I can not tell you for sure if any of the ingredients specifically contains the copper peptides or if they are simply added to the entire solution. With regard to Alcohol, Folligen uses propylene glycol versus alcohol as the delivery system to get the solution absorbed into the scalp resulting in less redness and irritation. I hope that this information is useful. If you have any further questions please let our customer service department know. Regards, Richard BenBassett Folica.com

Yes, try going to Healthboards.com if you can stomach it. They attract every kind of nut, and hypochondriac, and sensible discourse isn't even possible. I follow a number of health/cholesterol boards, and the desperate effort to cling to suedo science is pathetic. It is incredible how much people will BS themselves to justify eating a cheeseburger. Conversely, every drug on the market is a conspiracy between doctors and the big drug companies. mark

Okay fellow suedo scientists... I got the spray this am. Unfortunately it had NO ingredients list at all! Undeterred, I went back to the site, found the product I'd ordered. Here is the information: Folligen Solution Therapy Spray Purified Water, Aloe Vera Gel, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Glycerin, Polysorbate-20, Allantoin, Cupric Sulfate, Diazolinydinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Herbal Fragrance. Now the product description says it has copper peptides, but I don't know where they're hiding in the ingredients. I'm trying to get a live rep from the Folica folks where I bought it to give me some info on where the peptides are in the ingredient list, and if possible to even quantify it. As you can see, there is no alcohol, or at least nothing that straight out appears to be. More soon. mark

I get my spray tomorrow, and I never would have ordered it if I'd seen any alcohol in it. I'll take a close look when I get it and report. I too do not want any alcohol on my hair or skin, it does nothing good for it.

Well I have folligen spray coming out, and if its what I expect, then we can see whats in it, and maybe compare to research. I'll also be able to see how it goes on. this should be a thin light spray very water like. we'll see.

Hey Robert, I don't think I need to point out that I'm way out of my depth here. I do believe CP has real possibilities, because I'm reasonably good at vetting out the scams. I'm glad you and a few others are on board with looking into this more carefully, because this board could well be doing the hair loss community a serious service in doing so. mark

One of the quirks I've discovered about the foam, is how differently it applies based on external tempurature. Just as the directions tell you to run your applying hand under cold water and then dry it, so also the room temperature has significant effect. When my bathroom is cold, I find a much smaller amount of foam is needed for the same area, and in fact if I try and apply a consistent amount when its cold, I end up with a white foamy head...not what you want to take to the office. However, I've started to judge the temperature and apply more judiciously, and that has worked. Its been easy for me to experiement since I don't work. mark

Yes, thats my perspective, nothing to lose. I can't imagine trying to rub in a cream though. I'm looking for this spray to disappear into my scalp in a way minox liquid doesn't....we'll see. your point of cp concentration in the product is important. perhaps after I receive it, i'll be able to quantify it and compare. Certainly minoxidil would never be effective if taken only once a day in shampoo, so who knows?

I actually do have some professional anecdotal evidence, but I'm restricted from directly quoting. I think the most important use for CP is in encouraging faster growth during that long desert that HT'ers like myself have to cross. It is possible also that there is a synergistic relationship between Minox/propecia and CP, but most particularly with the former, since CP apparently helps open the follicle. Finally...and this is based on nothing at all...I'm concerned that the exposure that I get from shampoo and conditioner is inadequate to provide significant benefit, which is why I'm getting the spray and applying about halfway between minox appications. I used CP fotr the first 2 weeks post op, and the shampoo since then...and even tho I'm only six weeks, I've a hint that I'm starting to get early growth. mark

Okay dokey, Based on what I've read, and professional opinion I've sought out, I believe that a copper peptide solution applied daily will encourage faster hair growth. I'm not sure I will continue it after my HT reaches maturity, but I do think it may augment Minoxidil and Propecia in encouraging early growth. Isn't that the toughest part about an HT? As to which of the products to use, I'm feeling my way through this. Right now I use Folligen's Copper Peptide....lets just call it CP okay....shampoo and conditioner...two products that both have CP. 1 or 2 days a week I swap in Nizoral 1 per cent in its place. What I've ordered now....hasn't arrived yet, is the Folligen CP spray. the goal is to apply it once a day in between Minoxidil applications...just past the 4 hour mark after first Minox application. On most days then, I'll get two applications of CP. I agree Folligen has a confusing line of products. I don't know for sure what will happen, but I'd sprinkle on Miracle Gro if I thought it'd help. mark

Its interesting how this sort of thing gets started, particularly on the Internet. I run a cholesterol board and monitor several others. Some years ago there was a single study showing garlic reduced cholesterol somewhat. Now since that study there have been at least 25 other studies on garlic and _every_ single one was negative for cholesterol reduction. Now put "garlic" into Google and see how many folks are selling it for cholesterol reduction...its amazing. mark

and I think a copper peptide solution deserves at least as much consideration as Nizoral, although certainly not as much as the first two...not at this point anyway. Lasers? Pfff...go see a magic show, at least there you get popcorn. mark

I'm interested in your perspective Mrjb, you say you use Minoxidil, Propecia, AND Nizoral, but only the first two are proven as you state elsewhere. On the other thread you discounted the notion of Copper Peptides though, which does present positive evidence, but in this thread you also propse Nizoral, which to my knowledge has no proven or even studied efficacy. Now I'm new, I'm a maiden here, so please help me connect the dots. I'm curious because Nizoral seems endorsed by many with no proof, while Copper Peptides appears to be ignored _with_ actual evidence to its credit. This seems odd to me. cheers, mark

New studies show efficacy with Copper Peptides. So there's real science behind it, its not snake oil, although I agree its early days. So I choose to _in addition_ to minoxidil and Propecia, use a copper peptide spray. If it works I'll gain from it, and if it doesn't I'm out a few bucks only. mark