Hair loss and genes

[TC17]

My understanding is that "the" gene for hair loss is not a single gene at all, but rather, hair loss is a polygenetic trait. It would seem as though although ones hair loss can come from a distant relative, it is far more likely that ones hair loss pattern would follow that of a closer relative. Are those both correct assumptions?

 

That being said, are the genes that cause hair loss related to any others? For example, if you possess blue or green eyes, it is far more likely that you also have lighter colored hair as opposed to brown or black. I understand there are exceptions, Megan Fox being the one that pops into my mind, but by and large dark haired people have dark eyes. Now, for balding, if every man in your family who has hair loss also has a heavy beard, chest hair, back hair, etc., and you do not, is it LIKELIER that you will not suffer that particular family members fate? (keep in mind I'm not asking about me, I know I'm losing my hair, this is hypothetical) Or, if the bald members of your family can be broken into two groups, extensively bald and moderately bald, and the extensively bald men all have the body hair, while the moderately bald have moderate body hair, and you possess moderate body hair, is it LIKELIER that you will follow the hair loss pattern of the moderately bald? Also, if the baldest members of your family have dark hair, and you have light hair, wouldn't it stand to reason that you would be more likely to follow the pattern of the lighter hair family members?

 

To me, if patterns for recessive hair and eye color are usually found in tandem, then why wouldn't a pattern of hair loss and body hair be related as well? Hair and eye color seem far more dissimilar than body hair and head hair.

 

Any thoughts?

[swim]

Bingo

 

I know a guy that looks like is related to a gorilla, tons of body hair, so is his dad and grandpa on his dad side. Grandpa on his mom side had no body hair.

 

That grandpa was not bald.

 

But the guy I know,his dad and his other grandpa are/were.

 

I like this. I never thought about it.

[splitting hairs]

TC17, There's a lot with regard to hairloss and genes that we don't yet fully understand. You are right that there are many genes that contribute to hair loss. Take a look at this link - I found it a good read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A...ir_loss_and_genetics

 

There are androgen receptor genes which determine how sensitive our hair follicles are to DHT. But there are lots of other genes attributed to hairloss which have nothing to do with androgens - hence there is a belief that DHT is not the only cause for hairloss.

 

With regard to body hair and hairloss - I think there is a definate link - one that I have noticed myself. Since DHT is responsible for male secondary sexual characteristics, it makes sense that men with early MPB may have lots of body hair and thick beards. However, this probably only indicates high DHT levels - but whether someones hair follicles are sensitive to the DHT is determined genetically.

 

Hope this helps.

[Dr. William Lindsey]

I'll bet, that if we don't destroy humanity in the process of figuring how genes work with one another to code for particular expressions(hair loss, height, intelligence, susceptibility to various illnesses) that all of these questions can be answered in large part during my lifetime.

 

My understanding of the science thus far is the following:

 

In the 80s, when I was in college studying biology, scientists were getting to the point of identifying certain clusters of dna that coded for particular disease processes or birth defects.

 

In the 90s, when I was in my residency, genetic coding for particular cancer predilection was being worked out.

 

Somewhere along this time the human genome was fully decoded, but we didn't know what all of the bases code for.

 

Now, we are to the point of genetic manipulation for a few disease processes, although the clinical significance has yet to be realized.

 

Just look at the rapid accumulation of data, and to some extent knowledge on what it all means. Its like a huge cryptogram, maybe of something like the US constitution. We have alot of the words figured out, but how exactly they relate to one another and how they dictate certain traits is only starting to be worked out. Maybe a poor analogy, but I am pretty sure that all of this stuff will be worked out in time.

 

Now genetically "fixing" baldness, as I have posted previously, I think is a long ways off. Won't help me I suspect.

 

Dr. Lindsey McLean VA

[TC17]

Just to clarify, I wasn't specifically linking body hair to MPB, although I will say that it seems that a lot of bald men have an inordinate amount of body hair too.

 

I was merely inquiring as to whether we can BETTER estimate our balding pattern by looking at those male relatives that we most closely resemble. So, for example, if your dad has straight blond hair, blue eyes, and minimal body hair and is a NW 4, while your maternal uncle has brown hair curly hair, brown eyes, and gorilla like body hair and is a NW 7, and you more closely resemble your uncle, are you more likely to follow his pattern?

 

To me, it would seem logical (not that that really matters with hair loss) to believe that if we closely resemble person X in our family, that we would be far more likely to inherit a pattern more closely resembling his, than inheriting the pattern of the male relative to whom you bear no physical resemblance.

 

I ask because my dad and I share very few physical characteristics. I have blond hair, blue eyes, minimal chest hair, no back hair, moderate beard, whereas he has dark hair (what's left of it), brown eyes, full on vest of chest and back hair, and a 5 o'clock shadow that shows up at 10am. My mom's uncle has a beard closer to mine, blue eyes, body hair like mine, and is less bald than my dad. Since family history is a guess anyway, wouldn't it stand to reason that since I share so few outwardly physical traits with my dad, that I did not inherit his balding pattern?

[TC17]

Splitting hairs,

 

Good find! I see that the one article said that early onset balding is almost always found to be from the X chromosome. So, does that mean that the myth of baldness coming from your mother isn't actually a myth?

[splitting hairs]

Originally posted by TC17:

Splitting hairs,

 

Good find! I see that the one article said that early onset balding is almost always found to be from the X chromosome. So, does that mean that the myth of baldness coming from your mother isn't actually a myth?

 

It would seem that way. Although I think we still don't know the full picture.

[hdude46]

you are asking questions no one knows the answer to. sure you can hypothesize all you want, but i know just as many hairy as hell guys with full heads of hair as people with no body hair that are bald. family history is only one thing that factors in hair loss, there are many other factors that contribute. everyone is an individual. sitting here trying to figure out your balding pattern, while interesting discussion, no one knows the answer to.

 

my advice would be to get on medication, try prp maybe, and hope for the best. everyone would like to know there final destination, so that transplants can be planned accordingly, but i hate to tell you that no one can answer that for ya. Its important to remember that when dealing with nature and science, logic doesn't always take hold. by that i mean 1+2 doesn't necessarily equal 3 in the world of science. in fact a lot of times it doesn't. just b/c you inherited certain traits from one family member doesn't mean u inherited all of them. u could be balding like your dad but look like your uncle. who knows. hope that makes sense tc.

[TC17]

I understand that nobody can answer definitively hdude46, but I'm not requesting a definitive yes or no. As I said, I am only wondering if looking at those relatives with whom we share physical characteristics can help us better estimate our own hair loss pattern.

 

All doctors inquire into a patients family history of balding. However, the physicians know that family history cannot be used as an exact measuring rod for the individual patient. That does not mean that family history is of no importance. If my family history included all NW 7's, I would never even consider a hair transplant. Likewise, if my family history consisted of men who only went to a NW 3v, I would be far more likely to undergo an aggressive procedure.

 

What other than family history is an accurate predictor of our own balding? While nobody has a crystal ball, I would venture a guess and say that MANY patients and physicians rely heavily upon the patients family history when planning on a procedure.

 

I do not want anyone to get caught up in body hair, eye color, height, ear shape, or any other individual characteristic. All that I am asking is that is it more likely that we will follow the pattern of those men with whom we share physical similarities, rather than those with whom we do not share many? I fully understand that nobody can answer definitely, which is why I worded my question to include the words "more likely".

 

And hude46, I know that it is possible that I inherited the hair loss pattern my dad, bald uncle, long dead cousin whom I've never met, etc, but since we're gambling with out future, I would like to at least know the odds. It would seem as though we are more likely to inherit the traits of our closest relatives. I personally find it hard to believe that I could have a different hair color, texture, and start of my balding pattern than my dad, and yet still inherit his hair loss pattern, especially when there is an uncle in my family with more similar characteristics and the same start to the hair loss pattern as my own.

[splitting hairs]

Originally posted by TC17:

I personally find it hard to believe that I could have a different hair color, texture, and start of my balding pattern than my dad, and yet still inherit his hair loss pattern, especially when there is an uncle in my family with more similar characteristics and the same start to the hair loss pattern as my own.

 

This is interesting. I started receeding at 17 and am a NW 3 (but the crown is fine). My Dad started balding at 28 - but that was his crown and he didn't have significant hairloss until his thirties. This is the same with all my 6 uncles (dads side of the family). Although my Dad's dad had a full head of hair when he died at 70!

 

On my mum's side of the family, both my uncles have full heads of hair in their 40's, but My grandad had a similar pattern of hairloss to me and started losing hair in his 30's.

 

How did I get fobbed off with such early loss? Like I said there's still tons we don't know about genetics.

[hdude46]

im not really sure what you want us to say. if you find it hard to believe you inherited your dad's balding pattern, then plan your ht's like your uncle's hair loss pattern. i understand you would like to know the odds, but us regular guys here have no idea and even if we did give you an answer could you really take that as gospel? doctors have no idea either. what you are asking is such a complex question with so many factors that a simple eyeball of traits cannot answer.

 

I understand what you are trying to ask and it is an interesting question, but no one can even give you you a "likely" answer either. perosnally, if you think you will bald like your uncle then plan your stategy like that. i see no reason why not. my dad is a nw1 (with some diffuse loss at 60) but his brother is a nw4 and his dad a nw4-5 and i can tell i'll end up more like them than my dad.

 

all i am pointing out is just b/c you have some traits and some coincidences about when and how you are balding does not guarantee anything. are you on meds? if not i would start asap.

[Dr. William Lindsey]

TC17, we rely a good bit on family history of hair loss in planning. If a 22 year old comes in with just a little frontal triangle loss but everyone in his family is a class 7; then I am much more cautious than if everyone just looses a little to make a widow's peak. But, I always tell patients that I see lots of guys who tell me that they are the only bald guy in the family and a significant number come in and say that everyone is bald except themselves who have lost a bit at the crown...

 

Its genes and luck, and the luck will probably be worked out with more gene science study as the years go by.

 

Dr. Lindsey McLean VA

[TC17]

Let me preface my remarks by saying that it is quite possible that all I am searching for is confirmation that I did not inherit my dad's pattern, even though I know full well that such an answer is impossible to give. This might be similar to the patient who goes from doctor to doctor until he hears what he wants to hear, even though it is not best for the patient. I do not think that is what I'm doing, but it is possible.

 

hdude46, I would disagree with you when you say that nobody can even give a more likely answer. I would think that most physicians, after having been in this field for decades, would have interviewed thousands of patients, read thousands of articles, and performed thousands of surgeries. Those activities should have given the hair transplant specialist acute knowledge of many things related to hair, even if they are not research scientists and the genetic underpinnings are not fully understood. Many of the physicians have suffered from MPB themselves, and I am sure that they have looked at their family members. Because they have been immersed in all things hair for decades, they should be able to offer an opinion based upon a combination of the limited genetic knowledge we have of hair loss, and more importantly, their own first hand observations in their practice and personal lives. I also believe that since so many of us have become slightly obsessed with hair loss, we collectively should be able to see patterns developing. If the members of this forum, and the doctors say that they have never observed a pattern based upon like physical characteristics between family members, then the answer to my question is that you are not any more likely to follow relative X than you are relative Y, even if you possess far more physical characteritics in common with X than Y. If, on the other hand, the members and physicians can say that yes, we do see hair loss more closely follow the pattern of physically similar relatives, then we have a different answer. As I've mentioned earlier, my dad is a NW 6.5 with loads of body hair, dark hair and eyes, etc., his brother is a NW 2 with the same body hair, eye color, hair color, etc. Clearly, then, I realize that this is not some exact science, and I wouldn't bank on anything anyone says, but I'm not looking for exact science. Rather, all I am asking about is merely observations in the forum members own lives, and professional observations seen by physicians. If we can get a sizable number of members and physicians responding, we can MAYBE see if there are any patterns to be found.

[hdude46]

i think dr lindsey gave u your answer. even if you get people on here who say, hey yeah tc you are right, i notice that some people who look like certain family members follow their balding pattern, you will always have some people who notice that not to be true. sooo, imo, the point in asking for observations which can be deeemed maybe not usless, but not bankable per se, is kinda pointless. its luck and genes. a couple people and physicians is not a big enough sample size to make any determination, nothing will outside of a controlled scientific study. as dr lindsey said, he has seen it all in his practice, and looking at decades of heads and hair isn't going to determine anything, meaning that while family history is used and relied upon, there are always those who break the mold. what i am saying is that even if you did notice a pattern, you couldn't necessarily apply that to you. so what would be the point in trying to determine that, whether than own piece of mind.

 

yes, you are more likely to follow family members pattern, but that doesn't mean you are immune to following your own. you say your dad is a 6.5 (and if it were me i would just book that a 7) but you have uncles who have far less loss. its possible you could follow them, and it is possible you follow your dad. only time will tell and no sample patterns can let you know the more likely the answer. hope that makes sense.

[TC17]

Where you and I disagree hdude, is not on the difficulty in using family history to predict your own loss, but on the worth of so doing. I realize that I have the potential to be the baldest member of my family, I also realize that I might never lose another hair and remain a NW 3v. However, I believe that since the future is a crap shoot anyway, we should at least try and see if we can see any patterns developing.

 

Until we fully understand the genetics behind balding, the best thing we can do is observe what can be seen with our own two eyes. I do believe that if 50 or so members/physicians responded, we could MAYBE see if there is any relationship that exists. I think that many of us have a base knowledge of biology, and recognize that the genetic code can produce unexpected variations. However, those variations do not disprove the possible existence of a pattern.

 

If relative X (an uncle) begins losing his hair in the crown, and relative Y (a father) began receding and never lost crown hair, and you begin losing in the crown, doesn't it stand to reason that you will more closely follow relative X's pattern? Neither you, nor I can answer that question definitively. However, if we can get enough people together, I THINK that we MIGHT be able to see whether there is a pattern. Again, just because there will be people who do not fit neatly into a pattern, or who buck the trend of their family, does not make this an exercise in futility. In fact, I would argue that we have a responsibility to ourselves to at least try and see if we can enhance the significance of family history when planning for the future. If enough people respond, and we find the consensus to be that each person's individual pattern is completely unique to that person, then I think we can put to rest my admittedly suspect proposition. But, if we instead see that the age you start balding, the texture/color of your hair, the amount of body hair you have, the pattern in which you start balding, etc. closely follows that of one or more of your male relatives, then maybe we should look deeply into it.

 

Again, I understand we will never know for sure, but I believe that with enough personal observations, we can better utilize family history when planning our own procedures.

[Dr. William Lindsey]

You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your parents. Personally I'd have picked ones without high cholesterol and heart attacks at a young age...

 

Dr. Lindsey McLean VA

[Marvin]

Well another issue is how different baldness genes interact, right? So if your dad and uncle have different balding patterns, isn't it also possible that instead of getting one or the other, you could get a mix?

 

For instance, in my family virtually all the men are bald. But they tend to stop at NW4 or NW5. There might be a few who eventually hit NW6 in their late 50's, but I can't find a single NW7. This is true on both sides of my family.

 

So should I be planning for that kind of pattern...or does the fact that I am the combination of two families of bald men mean that I will be the first NW7 -- the ultimate product of selective breeding?

[vikoviko]

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