Propecia sides - Endocronologist visit feedback

[Danielkiwi]

Hi guys

 

I started using propecia some time back for 3 months and discontinued due to persistent sides...Side effects included weaker errections, brain fog, depression and anxiety...So, in order to be sure that this is not in my head, i went to see an endo who rand blood tests to check my DHT and testesterone levels..these were the results

 

DHT - 28

Testesterone - 479

 

The doc said normal testesterone range is 280 - 800 and i am fine in that but the DHT normal range is 30 to 85 and my DHT is low..it does not surprise me since i was on a DHT blocker...The doc said not to do anything right now and see him again in 3 months..

 

My question to you guys who have some knowledge about this issues (esp Swimmy and JJ), is what exactly causes ED??..is it low DHT or low testesterone...Also, would this Levels of DHT and test cause me to have anxiety or is it just in my head...any doctors reading this on the forum, i would really appreciate if you could throw some light on this!!!

[illuminated]

Hi

 

I took 1/5th Proscar daily for 3 months but noticed quite a few negative effects including some ED such as: much lower libido, loss of erection strength, no 'morning wood', greatly decreased ejaculate volume.

 

Coming off 1/5th Proscarfor just over a month has so far reduced the negative effects but not eliminated them so far .

 

Online reading on the subject isn't positive for those who are suseptible to the side effects of this drug, however, basically, DHT plays a major part in testosterone production, libido and sexual function.. to the best of my knowledge.

 

Althought your Endocronologist gave the range of 'normal' values, did (s)he not say what kinda values people tend to have and how you compare to these?

 

[j1j9j85]

read my post

 

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/158287-increased-dht-%3D-hairloss-always.html

 

it covers a wide range of topics specific to the author of the thread but theres abit on finest sides etc etc which may explain a few things for you!!!

 

in your case how ever!

 

finest has a few different effects for diff users especialy for the first few months. some experiance this in the period of time where the body is adapting to the use of the drug this alone can have sides think of it like your body is getting used to a new compound almost all meds including anti depressants and antibiotics to high blood pressure meds all have sides that people may experiance whilst the body first gets exposed and used to it in the start out period many of these sides are temporay how ever and often get better as time goes by of using the meds as the body gets used to a new compound and its effects...... you may not be experiancing any hormonal problems yet it could just be the factor above giving you sides....

 

how ever saying that who knows it could also be hormonal as its hard to say with out a full blood print out including oestrogen,LH,GNRH,FSH free test levels etc etc

 

the sides you speak of anxiety and ed and libido could all be related to the stress and worries of taking finest!!! and the body reacting to changes....but at the same time some people are just very sensitive to the med you could be one of them!!!

 

with finest its often the oestrogen that is the guilty party for sides...

 

dht opposes oestrogen for eg dht lowers levels of oestrogen low dht means high oestrogen.... when the balance of test to oestrogen is off this is when you get libido,ed,brain fog etc

 

did you get any oestrogen blood results done as any decent doc should be well aware that ED is not always associated with low test that is old school thinking!!!

 

if you have normal test levels if oestrogen is to low or to high above or bellow your test level ed and libido will happen also!!!

 

seeing as your test levels and dht levels are normal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ok dht is abit low but nothing drastic infact having it low is why you take finest! but its only low by a minute bit....

 

i think it could be oestrogen related!!!!

 

if not then im afraid you may be one of the guys who just respond very sensitvely to dht reduction?

 

im on dutas and finest and i am fine.... but when i first started finest 3 years ago it was so bad i stopped but when i restarted no sides..... the human body is not a machine and it reacts so different for every individual! it even acts different at different times for the same person on the same drug go figure!!

 

but my guess is a out of ballance test to oestrogen ration you most prob have high SHBG which binds to your free test and high oestrogen levels which effect ED libido and that leaves you with low free testosterone which is the testosterone that matters by the way not sereum or total test the free test is what does the business!!!

 

get shbg,lh,fsh,oestrogen levels and ask you doc to compare back to your test level and see if they contradict each other ie, unbalancing your HPTA axis or test to oestrogen ratio

 

and see what he says,

 

if you get me your full results that i have asked for i can forward them on to a close friend to also evaluate whats going on.... and he is an expert in this area!!!! and you can then go back to your endo with what him an i have questioned to help you out, with endos if you dont ask you dnt get! if you ask the important questions they take you seriously otherwise they try to palm you off

 

hope this helps

Edited November 2, 2010 by j1j9j85

[Danielkiwi]

Hi illuminated

 

Sorry to hear that you experienced side effects as well. I did ask the doctor about the specific question as to what is the normal DHT range for a common man and he said that he does not have a large enough database to answer that question..Go figure!!! what as waste of a test!!!

 

J

 

Thanks for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. I have read some of your posts on oestrogen and DHT relationship and did bring this up with the Endo..He asked me how i know about this and said it is a female hormone and i should not worry too much about reading stuff online and free information that is floating around..he said that my issues are not with oestrogen..on the other hand, i tried to dig further and asked him if a lower DHT can cause anxiety and if it would affect other hormones in my body..he said that DHT levels do affect some hormones in the brain and it is possible..i then asked him if we could check those hormone levels and he said that the human brain is much more complex and these tests would not give accurate information...i personally think this Endo has very limited knowledge and that i should get another opinion..i saw this Endo in US and would be travelling to India in a couple weeks and have an appointment with one of the best Endos in the country..Can you please guide me what should i ask

 

You have mentioned to check shbg,lh,fsh,oestrogen in addition to testesterone...is there any other specific thing i need to ask her..can you also please elaborate on the above hormones and how they operate in the nervous system..i am more concerned about my anxiety than with the ED issues!! thanks again..i really appreciate your time

[j1j9j85]

J

 

Thanks for your detailed response. I really appreciate it. I have read some of your posts on oestrogen and DHT relationship and did bring this up with the Endo..He asked me how i know about this and said it is a female hormone and i should not worry too much about reading stuff online and free information that is floating around..he said that my issues are not with oestrogen..on the other hand, i tried to dig further and asked him if a lower DHT can cause anxiety and if it would affect other hormones in my body..he said that DHT levels do affect some hormones in the brain and it is possible..i then asked him if we could check those hormone levels and he said that the human brain is much more complex and these tests would not give accurate information...i personally think this Endo has very limited knowledge and that i should get another opinion..i saw this Endo in US and would be travelling to India in a couple weeks and have an appointment with one of the best Endos in the country..Can you please guide me what should i ask

 

You have mentioned to check shbg,lh,fsh,oestrogen in addition to testesterone...is there any other specific thing i need to ask her..can you also please elaborate on the above hormones and how they operate in the nervous system..i am more concerned about my anxiety than with the ED issues!! thanks again..i really appreciate your time

 

 

it worries so much that your doctor can say that oestrogen is not worth worrying about im sorry but they are very wrong!!!!! oestrogen is the hormone responsible for montioring test levels its the trigger the body uses to maintain stable levels of testosterone production.

 

DHT is the main hormone that opposes oestrogen thats why men who embark on test replacemnet therapy after andropause take antie oestrogens when they inject test instead of using the gels as the gels make dht when they come into contact with follicle etc etc

 

if you eliminated dht wich allows oestrogen to go unchecked! and for a qualified endo to not know that excess oestrogen in men is bad is both mind boggling and worrying!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

yes it is the womens hormone but it is very very influential in the workings of men HPTA........................

 

i cant help you as far as the brain is concerned you need a shrink or neurologist but i more than capable in helping getting you hormones in the correct ratios!!!!!!

 

but first i will need the results for the tests for the hormones i have asked for with these i can talk with a few friends who are even more equiped to help than me and we can then write up a list of questions for you to take your other endo!!!!!

 

 

but please dont feel discouraged and i ask for you to trust me in this matter as many endos simplt do not understand finest yet or the effects!!!!! and many dont even know how the hormones relate to each other inside the human body its crazy

 

the best dr on the matter is dr eugien shippen in the states it is his protocols to which i draw on for guidance......

 

do a simple google search on excess effects on oestrogen in men im amased the endo is so narrow minded???? to even google or research her self

 

see bellow these symptoms can also be seen in finest users how a endo can not know this is discusting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

Symptoms of Too Much Estrogen in Men

 

 

Hormone imbalance in men is a common problem. Hormone imbalance normally starts showing in the forties, but sometimes it can occur much earlier. This is an embarrassing problem for men, but it can be cured.

 

 

 

 

 

1. Causes
   
2. All men need a little bit of estrogen in their system. Too much of the hormone, however, causes severe imbalances in the body and a wide range of health problems. One of the more dangerous side effects of too much estrogen in men is heart problems including heart attacks. It is not known why men get more estrogen in their system, but it is a sort of imbalance in the pituitary gland where the hormone is secreted.Breast Enlargement
   
3. Swelling of the breasts can occur when there is high levels of estrogen in the male body. This symptom is known as gynecomastia. This symptom will occur faster in men who have excess weight and already have a slight swell to their breasts.Erectile Problems
   
4. Erectile dysfunction can occur in men with high levels of estrogen. Testosterone is needed in the body to produce erections. When there are low levels of testosterone, it takes longer to get an erection, if the man can get one at all. The penis may even shrink when there are high levels of estrogen in the body.Muscle & Bone Loss
   
5. Men who have high levels of estrogen in their body may experience muscle and bone loss. Testosterone is responsible for for building and maintaining muscle and bone in a man's body. Because of muscle loss, weight gain can occur as well.Mood
   
6. Many men will suffer from mood swings as a result of too much estrogen, and they may also become depressed.
   

 

 

 

 

this was just one thing i found after 1min of looking, even though this is inaccurate in places the at least touch on how its detrimental to ED and mood etc

 

im sorry but many of my friends involved with bodybuilding and regular manipulation of the hormones are vastly more educated on the matter than many qualified endos im affraid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

many endos will feed you aload of bull to make you go away because they dont understand.

 

get your results and i will equip you with the questions and studys to give them something to think about and hopefully educate them selfs!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

Edited November 3, 2010 by j1j9j85

[Swimmy]

JJ said enough. So I don't need to say anything..

 

 

If you continue to take propecia later on it might be a good idea to take DIM with it. That will help deal with excess estrogen.

[Danielkiwi]

thanks for your response guys..i appreciate it..at this point, i dont want to play around with my hormonal system as fixing one thing could potentially cause other imbalances..hence, would just like to go the natural route

[brentipold]

He said your testosterone of 479 was normal? BA HAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!! First of all, Hes a fool. 479 is good if your 60 years old.. After 30 years old your Test decreasese by 2% per year... IDK how old you are but if your 40 or younger, thats NOT good, and propecia is blocking dht, but it is also blocking to much T as well. Low T is why you are have having ED. Once you quit taking the drug your hormones will stablize. Your DHT will probably go up to about mid range, while your T should be in the upper 5's or lower 6's. Another reason why youre having ED is probably because your Estrogen is too high as well.. Again, another great side effect from Propecia.. Estrogen kills erections.. Especially morning/nocturnal or spontaneous ones.. Elevated estrogen makes all sexual function including libido, very difficult....

 

 

479 good. ba hahaha what a joke!!!

[j1j9j85]

thanks for your response guys..i appreciate it..at this point, i dont want to play around with my hormonal system as fixing one thing could potentially cause other imbalances..hence, would just like to go the natural route

 

 

i agree understand why you feel this way but sometimes it can take a very very long time for the body to get back to normal if certain imbalances have tipped ur hpta to far! excess oestrogen which finest encourages can permanentaly shut down the natural production of testosterone in some men or at least make it weak! if oestrogen levels stay high test levels will stay low its that simple if oestrogen is high a strongly recomend adex as this will speed up the bodys ability to increase testosterone naturaly. but only if bloods say you have oestrogen levels above norm!!!

 

good luck what ever you choose to do and if the sides persist for a long time i highly recomend getting an oestrogen count done!

[trapps99]

Hello all...

I have been on Propecia for a few years, and yes......when IM on it my libido goes down....no ifs, ands or buts about it. Its not in the head, or due to anxiety. I think alot more people have this problem, and its a crazy choice to make...sexual prowress or lose more hair? What crappy choices!!!

Im just going to stay with Minoxidil to help prevent further loss. My two cents is ive learned NOTHING is more depressing than a low sex drive...not even a drug to stabilize hait loss....

[Pochii]

Hello, So so so sorry to go offtopic on this thread.

 

I am trying to PM you j1j9j85

 

But it dosent seem to be working properly? Is there anyway I can contact you about my problem?