Grafts and total number of hairs

[Guest wanthairs]

Hey guys......So much knowledge on this forum its unbelievable.

I had a procedure by jeffrey Epstein a month ago. I had asked for as many grafts as he could possibly do and he had mentioned that in his experience looking at other doctors work, the total amount of hairs harvested(NOT GRAFTS) are usually equal even though the graft count varies by the thousands. In other words my procedure of 2900 grafts ( i think....still have not got the final number) has the same final haircount that many other doctors would with 4000 grafts or more. I was a norwood 6 and the grafts really did a great cover up job although I buzzed all my hair down to below number one with the Kojak look. (i dont care if anyone sees the scar or not)

 

Anyway, can someone comment on what I have said.....Do you think some doctors lie about how many grafts they do to make more money, or just "slice the pizza more times" ? I am really curious, because i want to do a second procedure and thinking of either going to Hasson and Wong to get the most amount of grafts in one sitting, but I dont want to waste the time travelling if im going to get the same hair count with Epstein with fewer grafts.....

By the way, for anyone curious, I would say I had a positive experience with Epstein, but time will tell to see what it finally looks like........

[Guest wanthairs]

Hey guys......So much knowledge on this forum its unbelievable.

I had a procedure by jeffrey Epstein a month ago. I had asked for as many grafts as he could possibly do and he had mentioned that in his experience looking at other doctors work, the total amount of hairs harvested(NOT GRAFTS) are usually equal even though the graft count varies by the thousands. In other words my procedure of 2900 grafts ( i think....still have not got the final number) has the same final haircount that many other doctors would with 4000 grafts or more. I was a norwood 6 and the grafts really did a great cover up job although I buzzed all my hair down to below number one with the Kojak look. (i dont care if anyone sees the scar or not)

 

Anyway, can someone comment on what I have said.....Do you think some doctors lie about how many grafts they do to make more money, or just "slice the pizza more times" ? I am really curious, because i want to do a second procedure and thinking of either going to Hasson and Wong to get the most amount of grafts in one sitting, but I dont want to waste the time travelling if im going to get the same hair count with Epstein with fewer grafts.....

By the way, for anyone curious, I would say I had a positive experience with Epstein, but time will tell to see what it finally looks like........

[Hairfree]

Wanthairs,

 

I assume you had the strip done. One thing that that I learned about the hair count is that it is only controlled by nature. The numbers of hairs extracted out of fixed number of grafts in a strip has nothing to do with the doctor. Some doctors may split grafts which will increase the graft count and that can be misleading. Most of the top doctors will not split grafts. If you went for 4000 grafts with the same percentages of 1's, 2's, 3's, and 4's as you did with the 2900 grafts procedure you would have a much higher hair count and coverage.

[NervousNelly]

Uh oh. Not this topic again. The jury is still out as to if some do indeed inflate the graft count. Guess we'll never know. Find a quality doc that you are happy with and you have to realize that anything approaching 3000+ Fu per session is going to give quite a cosmetic difference.

 

NN

[hairbank]

This is a delicate topic..............I certainly don't want to rehash the past but feel the need to mention something on this.

 

I remember a thread not too long ago where Dr. Epstein mentioned that he could accomplish with 2800 grafts what it took some surgeons 4000 grafts to accomplish. To me, this apparently means (as I think it does here) that some clinics are "splitting grafts" to show more numbers. In my book, if that is the intent, I'd like to know who's doing it?

 

I, for one, do not suspect any of the Coalition Surgeons recommended by this site of trimming grafts any more than necessary to recreate a natural hairline with 1's. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I'd like to hear it. Otherwise, I hope this drops like a hot potato!

 

I went to Dr. Wong for my 2nd HT,and will be visiting him again this August for number 3. I can tell you, not only by evidence of their past clients who received the appearance of a full head of hair, but from my personal experience, the 3886 grafts I received filled in a very large crown with some work in the mid-scalp and temples with very good density. So, if you're thinking of going to H/W because you want numbers, you're going to get "real" numbers.

 

Dr. Epstein may be correct about some surgeons trimming grafts to the benefit of the clinic. However, as I mentioned, these accusations are serious and if there is evidence of it happening, we need to pass the information to Pat for further research. If there is no first-hand, solid evidence of this, I caution posters to approach this topic in a sensitive fashion.

 

I have the highest regard for Dr. Epstein's work so please do not take my post as anything other than as was intended...........a clear reminder of how proof is needed before claims are made that could be harmful to one of our Coalition Surgeons. I could mention that many clinics seem to deliver 2500-3000 grafts, not that the patient couldn't have safely received more in one session, just because that particular clinic has chosen (for staffing and other issues) not to do what it takes to offer the larger session sizes.

 

My advice to anyone with these questions, take a look at the pictures clinics provide and attempt to meet some patients of that particular clinic if possible. After you've seen tons of results from 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000, 6000 and 7000 graft patients, it's not that difficult to see if the numbers are justified by the results.

[Guest wanthairs]

hey guys....

 

Thanks for your info.....Epstein did not mention any docs by name......but yes, these things are serious, if us poor balkd guys are getting ripped off. I have to say though, with my procedure of 2900 grafts, my scalp looked much more covered than most pics I have seen with this same number of other docs. Maybe mine are spread out more, with less density.........Do you know how much H&W charge per graft? Or if there is any travel costs reimbursement?

Thanks again guys......If it were not for this site Id still be wearing a painfully obvious combover.

[Bill - Seemiller]

wanthairs,

 

As mentioned by a few others, this is a delicate topic.

 

I'll state it this way:

 

I believe there are SOME clinics that split naturally occuring FUs into sub follicular units. Comparing naturally occuring FU grafts then to sub-FU grafts, therefore would prove that 1000 FU grafts would be a greater number of hairs than 1000 sub-FU grafts.

 

I will also say that despite some people's beliefs, I do NOT believe Hasson and Wong split FUs. If I thought they did, I would have never have done to them to have my third surgery done.

 

I will also state that just about ALL clinics sometimes split some FUs in order to create more singles when needed for the hairline. But this is different than what is referred to as sub-follicular unit grafting.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Bill

[spoon]

As mentioned by a few others, this is a delicate topic.

 

Doesn't have to be. There's a really easy solution, look at the average number of hairs per graft from different clinics and draw your own conclusions. Of course, that information has to be released first.

 

It's pretty clear to me that the average number of hairs per graft does vary quite a bit when you're talking about different clinics. So if you gave the same donor strip to two different clinics and you repeated the experiment you would consistently end up with very different hair counts. In other words, different clinics have different ideas of what constitutes a single follicular unit.

 

The problem with the term "sub-follicular" is that it assumes you have a common definition of follicular unit to begin with. Without that definition you can't define "sub" so the term is useless. Bottom line though is that if the average hairs per graft is consistently different, and particular clinics have consistently lower average hairs per graft, then they obviously cut grafts smaller.

 

I don't think the main motivation is money. I think it's just different ideals of what a transplant should be. However, in my opinion after looking at a lot of pictures, density suffers when you use a lot of 2's and very few 3's and 4's.

[hairbank]

Originally posted by wanthairs:

hey guys....

 

Thanks for your info.....Epstein did not mention any docs by name......but yes, these things are serious, if us poor balkd guys are getting ripped off. I have to say though, with my procedure of 2900 grafts, my scalp looked much more covered than most pics I have seen with this same number of other docs. Maybe mine are spread out more, with less density.........Do you know how much H&W charge per graft? Or if there is any travel costs reimbursement?

Thanks again guys......If it were not for this site Id still be wearing a painfully obvious combover.

 

wanthairs-

 

H&W charges $4.50 for the first 2000 grafts, then $2.50 for anything additional. I believe they will credit you in grafts for the airfare up to $400 and they pay for a 2-night hotel stay. For specific questions, just call Mike Ferko at the # listed at their site.

 

I'm heading there for HT #3 in a couple months..............maybe you can join me !!

 

Peace,

[Guest wanthairs]

Hairbank.

 

Just saw your weblog. Your results are fantastic !!! You have more hair there than I did when I was 18 !!....

 

Unfortunately I cannot meet you at H&W becuase I am only 4 weeks post op on my first procedure. I guess I need to wait another 8 months. Just for everyones info. I spent $10,000 exactly to the penny for 2900 grafts with Epstein inculding all the medication and Graftcyte. Only problem is that I never did get an exact graft count or hair count and the office appears not to have this info. In any case If the hair grows the result should be very impressive.....But I am after a really high mega session next time to wrap this stuff up.....

[hairbank]

Thanks for the detail, wanthairs. I'm surprised Dr. Epstein's office didn't have the graft/hair counts for you as I though normally i'd seen their patients post them.....not sure though, ?

 

For some reason i didn't see that you were only 4 weeks post op from Dr. Epstein............yes, I'd wait at least 1 year before considering another HT. This will give you a better picture of your sitation after the HT and help you plan better for any future work.

 

Thanks for the compliments on my HT's. I am really happy with the work but I guess hair greed has gotten the best of me. I'm really psyced to go see Master Wong again!