Natural Density

[Guest]

Hello All:

 

For the NONBALDING average white North American male, what's the natural density around the hairline?

 

I read lots of posts about guys having had HTs and how much hair per sq. cm they have managed to get -- numbers like 30, 40, even 60. Can anyone tell me what is natural for a nonbalding guy?

 

The reason I ask is that I don't want to have MORE density than is natural for a nonbalding guy. BEAR IN MIND, however, that I do NOT care about how guys' hair thins as we age. I know all that. I don't want a number that's natural for a guy losing his hair later in life; I want to know what is natural density on someone who has experienced NO balding-type hairloss.

 

Much appreciated gang.

 

Pic

[Guest]

Hello All:

 

For the NONBALDING average white North American male, what's the natural density around the hairline?

 

I read lots of posts about guys having had HTs and how much hair per sq. cm they have managed to get -- numbers like 30, 40, even 60. Can anyone tell me what is natural for a nonbalding guy?

 

The reason I ask is that I don't want to have MORE density than is natural for a nonbalding guy. BEAR IN MIND, however, that I do NOT care about how guys' hair thins as we age. I know all that. I don't want a number that's natural for a guy losing his hair later in life; I want to know what is natural density on someone who has experienced NO balding-type hairloss.

 

Much appreciated gang.

 

Pic

[Manko]

Pic,

 

I was always under the impression that a non-balding person had 100 hairs per sq cm. But, and I think you probably dont want to hear it, the percentage of guys who don't experience any thinning is real small. I'm sure someone else will either confirm or dispute my number.

 

Regards,

Manko

[FUTzyhead]

I think the average range is 80-100/cm2. I'm shooting for 3 more HT's to get around 260/cm2.

[Guest]

ahhahahah

[vocor1]

futzy make me laugh! A few more megasessions and you'll do it, bud.

 

Pic:

Yes, usually 80-100 FU/cm^2. My donor hair density was/is 80 FU/cm^2.

Manko makes a good point. VERY few men never bald at all. And even fewer have true, full density in their hairline. Sure, it happens, but it is rare. Even in men you'd consider have a "full head" of hair still have less density in their hairline zone.

So about 80 FU/cm^2 for full density. That will take multiple HTs over the same area to achieve if that is what you desire. I believe 40-60 FU/cm^2 is doable in a single session. That should fully give you the appearance of full density.

 

vocor1

Knowledge is Power

If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared.

[Guest]

I was told by Matt with the Shapiro Group that a normal non bald head has 80 to 100 per cm. The interesting point though, was that even when a person loses hair and goes down to 40 to 50, it will not appear thin and will look normal. After looking at my pics, he said I have 10 to 15 per cm. So if I get 25 to 40 it will be a big improvement.

[Guest]

Thanks, guys. The consensus seems to indicate that the answer to my question about "nonbalding" men is a hairline density of around 80-100 hairs per sq cm. Very good to know.

 

MANKO: You wrote, "But, and I think you probably dont want to hear it, the percentage of guys who don't experience any thinning is real small."

 

Yes, I know that. Yes, I didn't want to hear that--not because I want to deny reality but because I already know it and it wasn't relevant to my question. I just didn't want this thread to degenerate into an argument over the definition of nonbalding and "what's natural" etc. etc. etc. ad NAUSEUM. No one would go through an HT for the express purpose of IDEALLY achieving a THINNING density. So, I just wanted to know the NONbalding density on average in order to have a base to work from.

 

FUTZY: Cute.

 

VOCOR1: You wrote, "My donor hair density was/is 80 FU/cm^2."

 

Two questions:

1.) You wrote "FU" per sq. cm, NOT "hairs" per... Do you mean you can have MORE than 80 HAIRS then? If a guy has 100 FU/sq. cm, can he have a density of, say, 200 HAIRS per? What is the unit of measure here, people? HAIRS or FUs -- I understand there's a significant difference as a single FU can hold a number of individual HAIRS.

 

2.) How did you know your donor density? How was it measured and by whom?

 

Lastly, I refer you to the above about how few men never bald at all. I know this, people. It wasn't my point at all.

 

OH, lastly lastly! You wrote: "That will take multiple HTs over the same area to achieve if that is what you desire. I believe 40-60 FU/cm^2 is doable in a single session."

 

Can someone tell me why this rate, 40-60 FU/cm2, that Vocor1 mentions above is the "do-able" rate in an HT. Is this true? Is it impossible to do more in a single session? If so, is it inadvisable? Why?

 

FABE: Thanks. That was an interesting point, though actually I knew that too. I once got into a LONG drawn-OUT and, to be honest, totally BORING conversation with a guy about how you don't NEED "nonbalding" density to LOOK as if you have a full head of hair. I knew that then, I know that now.

 

I just was trying to find out what the nonbalding head of hair IS. You want a base to work from. You want to know as much as possible, at least I do. By the guy, "the guy" I had the above mentioned conversation with was the HT doc I went to during PLUGSVILLE HEYDAY ten years ago. I later learned he dodged this question with ALL prospective clients because his crap technique would never achieve anything close to natural, nonbalding density. Yet ANOTHER reason I declined to go forward then -- his avoidance, that is, not the desire to achieve 80-100 FU/sq. cm (though that'd always be nice).

 

Pic

[Guest]

I didn't mean to bore u, just trying to help.

[Guest]

Pic,

So 80-100 grafts/cm2 is the answer to your question i guess. that is good to know.

 

Here is my question to everyone: On average, how many procedures must one have to acheive 80-100 grafts/cm2?

[vocor1]

Pic:

Good follow up questions, here are my answers:

 

How did I get a donor density of 80 FU/cm^2 and did I actually mean hairs instead of FUs.

 

I did mean FUs. I got 2205 FUs. The breakdown was:

531 1-hair FUs

1184 2-hair FUs

452 3-hair FUs

38 4-hair FUs

 

This number of FUs was extracted from a 26cmx1.1cm strip. If you do the math, it'll be about 77 FU/cm^2. But the area isn't a prefect rectangle, more like a rectangle with two triangles on the sides. So my actual density is higher than 77 FU/cm^2. I don't know the exact angles of the triangles involved, but it is a safe assumption to say I have at least 80 FU/cm^2 in my donor area, because the area is bound to be less than 26x1.1cm but the FUs harvested is still 2205.

 

Okay, I've heard of some people bragging that their doctors can do over 60 FU/cm^2, but I have yet to see any picts validating this. Do you know how much you'd have to trim the FUs to stuff in over 60 FU/cm^2? If 80 is a natural density and you are tranplanting to a bald area, well, the bald area already has skin there and you are trying to insert all these FUs there with no tissue around them? If you cut all the tissue away (assuming you could), you risk damaging the graft during cutting and placement would be harder too because there is nothing protecting the shape/rigidity of the graft root.

So there has to be at least a little tissue there, and you are adding that to an area that has tissue there already. That native tissue has to move somewhere, right? It can't just be "replaced" by grafts.

My point is that there is some buffer there during the transplantation process. We are dealing with microscopic sizes here, but to claim that I can achieve full density of 80 FU/cm^2 just doesn't add up.

And I've yet to see it.

That being said I HAVE seen instances of some doctors packing in more FUs/cm^2 than others. This is largely up to the doc's philosophy on dense packing and skill.

I'll be honest with you, I think you get 40 FU/cm^2 in one sitting, then you'll absolutely think it is full density in almost all cases. That's my bet. Under that may also be just fine, BTW. Individual cases may vary.

At least in my case, 40 FU/cm^2 DOES give the appearance of full density. I know this because my top is full looking now and my front tuft is gone. Hairs added to those areas where some hairs already were produced full density appearance.

I hope this helps.

 

vocor1

Knowledge is Power

If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared.

[Guest]

FABE, FABE, FABE! You got me all wrong, man. I wasn't meaning to suggest YOU were boring me. More that I simply made clear in my initial post what I did and did not want to discuss in order to avoid boring and useless digressions.

 

After all, I, me, myself, am NEVER responsible for such digressions on various other threads...

 

Anyway, no offense intended, Fabe.

 

Pic

[Joe Transplant]

I got in on this threat kind of late so I haven't read all the postings. Sorry if any of my info is redundant. This is an article I found a couple years back when I was looking into the whole thing on density:

 

THE DENSITY ISSUE

B.L.Limmer, M.D.

Professor of Dermatology, University of Texas Health Science Center, San

Antonio, Texas; Diplomate American Board of Dermatology, Inc., Diplomate

American Board of Dermatopathology, Inc., San Antonio, Texas

 

All hair restoration techniques should seek to mimic nature in both quality

and quantity. Results so natural that recognition as a transplant is

difficult are readily accomplished today through the use of large numbers of very small grafts. Whether density comparable to other techniques can be accomplished with small graft methodology remains a contested issue among transplant surgeons.

 

A review of the literature reveals a significant variation in naturally

occurring density as determined by surface anatomists, microscopic histologic studies, and the intraoperative findings of hair restoration surgeons. These findings are noted to be influenced by age, race and various alopecias including androgenetic alopecia. Using horizontal sectioning methods, Headington found terminal hair counts of 160-280 per square centimeter. Surface anatomists have found average densities ranging from 154-240 hairs per square centimeter. Using surface microscopy, Barman et al found the frontal scalp of non-balding men age 16-46 years to possess an average of 210 hairs per square centimeter. Sperling and Winton6 found the frontal scalp of patients undergoing hair transplantation for androgenetic alopecia to possess 111 hair per square centimeter of which approximately 85% were vellus and 15% terminal. Other estimates of total hair density have ranged from 435 per square centimeter for 80 year old men to 615 per square centimeter for 20-30 year old men. Hair restoration surgeons counting terminal hair in the donor area of patients undergoing hair restoration surgery have generally found a lesser terminal hair density than surface anatomists. By counting terminal hair in 4.0-4.5 millimeter diameter donor plugs, Nordstrom found a range of 82-190 hair per square centimeter. By counting hair in an approximately 10 square centimeter elliptical donor specimen, Limmer found a range of 120-140 hair per square centimeter. Summarizing the densities encountered by these investigators it would appear with reasonable certainty that the naturally occurring density in the adult male lies in a range of 130-280 terminal hair per square centimeter with an average density estimated near 200 hair per square centimeter.

 

It is generally accepted that hair density must decrease approximately 50% before alopecia becomes very obvious to the naked eye. Assuming a range of 130-280 terminal hair per square centimeter as "normal", a goal of 65-140

hair per square centimeter would be required to generate the appearance of

"normal" density restoration. Based upon counts of density in cases done by both plug and mini-micrografting methods, these estimates required to produce the appearance of normal or cosmetically acceptable density hold true in this study.******"

 

Now, what I understand from this is that "normal" density is from 130-280 HAIRS/cm2 and to get up to the "appearance" of normal (50%) would require 65-140 HAIRS/cm2. I also read somewhere that an HT averages about 2 Hairs per Graft, so you would need about 32-70 GRAFTS/cm2 to achieve 50%. Again, I'm not sure if this is all acurate, I'm just going by the article and what was told to me.

[Guest]

joe transplant,

that was a good post. it was very informative.

[vocor1]

Joe Transplant:

Good post. Your math makes sense. The usual FU distribution that I've seen is about 1:2:1:<<1 as far as FU distribution 1-hair/2-hair/3-hair/4-hair FUs.

Also explains why more FUs are required in the frontal third. Not only because it is usually the area that is "most" bald, but you'll need more 1 and 2-hair FUs in front for cosmetic reasons. So more FUs are required in the frontal third to achieve the same appearance of density as other areas because those other areas can be populated with 3 & 4 hair FUs with no negative effect on the cosmetic effect of the HT.

Good post. 30-70 FUs sounds like the correct amount, and you've done the math to support that.

 

vocor1

Knowledge is Power

If the worst question is the one never asked, then the worst answer is the one never shared.