hopefull

excellent post man Well done for shaving ot all off you look cool. What is liberating is that after the initial get used to it period where you check your face 20 times a day in the mirror from every possible angle lol... you slowly find all the advantages coming in 1. You stop looking how your hair looks constantly in mirrors 2.You stop being afraid of wind, rain and all the elements of nature (sworn enemied of thinnign hair and carefully styled hair to hide thiness) 3.you can enjoy sports without caring how your thin hair looks when you sweat or swim or wear helmets of any kind(bicycle, motorbikes) Its undoubtely the best thing to do, transplants can only do so much.In my opinion they just keep you in the fight making you fighting forevert and have the same worries forever (how my hair looks under this light, if i wet my hair they will look thin i have to take care, why is this guy looking at my hairline?, i think my hair are thinning more lately maybe propecia stopped working so good...maybe i should go in for a fill in procedure...maybe i should switch to avodart) these things in these forums that doctors advertise you dont hear them so often and some truths are hidden.I lived this situation in HLH where the doctors where protected first and the patients were always second. You see the patients dont pay the sites bills or the moderators lifestyle Usually all the people who were unsattisfied by transplants were unrealistic or whatever and pretty soon were driven away from the forum...also all the posters who questioned things and raised flags were eliminated (banned or aksed to leave) so that the marketplace will remain a happy shopping experience. Thats how i see things now maybe i am wrong but where there is smoke there is fire they say

what if there was a specific topic discussed...something like a webinar and we can all chat about it. that would be interesting.Maybe a doctor invited and we can all ask questions and talk to each other.something like a classroom and we take turns to speak with a moderator giving the turns....i dont know if there is a software that can do that but it would be awesome!!!

Yeah, it turned unavoidable... anyway thanx for the answers...i seem to assume alot as you say.As in Armanis case where i never saw a consultant who is so much in the know and he is not assuming to fight the BS like some of us did... by the way here are some very recent example posts from HLH for us to assume more about scars, meds and transplants... by sceptic "I got my Ht in Novemeber 2007. For the first year everything was ok. But 13th month..i started shedding heavily. I used to take Proscar 1.25mg/daily. Apparently it stopped working. The shedding is heavy and i switched to Avodart (dut) for the last 3 weeks. Now there has been no change. Now..the hair is thinning..as per my Doc it could be native hair..but i never had that many native hair to begin with initially ... so at this rate of shedding i will be back to pre HT levels in about 3 months. Is there anything else that i can do?. Blood test. Switch back to Proscar?. This aspect of HTs no body discusses. Now i cannot go ahead and shave my head as i have a scar now. Sometimes, it makes me wonder whether the money spent was worth it." by innermind "yeah... skeptic4 Im basically in the same spot you are. I had a huge shed, although im pretty sure it was the minox foam, and the hair never came back and propecia, after almost 2 years did nothing. I keep it as short as possible. I will soon get FUE into my scar so i can go as short as possible. Its really the only option for now. Pray for HM, acell or follica. Good luck." Lets assume that there wont be more posts like this in the future...

Its not about my choise...i speak generally. On my case since you mention it...i would only go FUE never in a million years strip in this day and age(I d rather wait for HM lol).Low density transplant all through the nw6 area (when i will loose what i have left now) a buzzcut to keep it very very short and thats it. Sorry if i sound too critical but sometimes even the so called best need criticizing regarding certain things so that we are not fooled. to explain i will you an example from anither indutry...Lets say the fruit industry, whats better than fruits right?good for overall health better than most foods and all...lets take Dole the fruit company they have marketing based on our wellbeing giving advices-leaflets with health tips etc, what to eat what not to eat...I mean the companys marketing has our best interest in mind and its very easy cause it represents a very healthy product fruits... Well thats all good but you will never see in their leaflets...that fruits has the worst kind of sugar for your teeth which is fructose and you have to brush your teeth thoroughly after fruit consumption. I mean they care for us giving us health tips and all but they just would not highlight this health tip for us my friend...and that why this communities are needed for real posters expressing all these truths, consultants are nice and helpfull and likeable and all but up to one point... Only posters can be totally legitimate P.S. regarding avodart i am sorry but i stand by what i said, its a drug for prostate cancer and it has only been tested for this purpose, its very strong and its simple not approved for a cosmetic condition like hairloss and the trials have been stopped...and IMHO doctors promoting it just because it grows hair better than propecia is at best... irresponsible, and at worst...criminal.But maybe is just me anyway i wont comment any further on this, maybe i am being overcautious

What you dont get is that the problem is not the HT industry...its the nature of the procedure it self i worry about and how many of these desperate youngsters that see these amazing pictures trully know the limitations and risks of this procedure. and i am terrified that doctors use propecia and avodart as a safety net in order to push the limits and graft counts so that they can show great pictures. Its not that H&W or joe is bad i know they are from the best in this business

My views are somehow different ... yeah thats my point...how do they know all the information to inform the patient since it hasnt been tested for hairloss?for example:What is the percentage of peopele experiencing sideffects from Avodart when used for hairloss?For propecia according the FDA trials is 1-2% and the doctors can inform the patiens ...you really suprise me calling it ethical promotion!!! there is no risk to manage if you end up nw7 in my opinion...there is absolutely not enough donor for anything easthetically pleasing and your scar will become obvious I almost agree and it needs a looooooooot of research and i believe we have the posters of these forums to thank for that and not the clinics or their marketing.And we have to protect newbees and raise flags as often as we can and not let them be informed just by consultants or salesmen Just to put it simply bro...he is f*cked if he for any reason has to stop drugs and he progressess to nw7and his scar will become obvious!(for example thats why Joe keeps taking propecia as he said to save his donor and progress further than nw6!!!)...and there is no surgery or minoxidil that can stop it!Minoxidil is what most people use in the beginning its not propecia to save your existing hair

"Any honest clinic will acknowledge not only the benefits of today's hair transplants, but the risks and limitations involved. " Do you consider promoting the use of avodart since it is a prostate cancer drug not approved for hairloss as correct and thoughtfull of the patients wellbeing?How do they know the risks of this drug for example without it being approved for the specific condition? And second how does a doctor know for sure that a patient wont progress to nw7?Me personally i ve read joe saying that he was nw6 before his procedures but he takes propecia never the less to avoid going beyond nw6.Honestly what happens if you have to stop the meds?how much donor do we have exactly??? Do people really know the risks and limitations?Is it what the clinics tell them or should we also share our opinions? I just have one question...a 30 year old guy goes for a transplant...he uses propecia and his hair are strong and beautifull but his hairline has receded badly, his temples are gone and he is classed nw3-nw4 but with a dense crown never the less...you transplant 3500-4500 grafts and now he looks like the bomb!!!You give him some avodart and it works better than propecia and even his crown and midscalp looks fuller!!! A medical condition arises, he suddenly has sides from avodart and prop or whatever...he stops drugs and his hairloss becomes very agressive he is nw6 by 35-45 and his donor starts to thin...by 50 he starts to close the nw7 benchmark How many grafts does he have left?Is that "healthy plan of a plentifull donor supply" as you call it realistic?How can they even form such a plan Bill???They simply dont know what will happen in the future they just rely on the drugs and the fact that patients will never have to stop them or that they will work forever... (and notice i said a 30 year old patient, i dont even wanna go to the 23-25 years old that i see going under the knife)

Hi LMS thanx my friend and right back at you The only thing is that consultants and salesmen will start to avoid us. The "negativity" of the truth is not so good for business ...

Hi man wellcome...first of all i would not give up on rogain.I had some of the problems you mentioned and they were solved either by using dr.Lee'minox or by using the standard 2% version(i currently use the second) As for the transplant my advice is first try hairloss drugs like propecia or rogaine for a year.For me personally propecia was a nightmare in regard to sideeffects but if i didnt try it i would never knew... another very good alterantive if you dont want to try propecia is nizoral 1%. but my last advice after many years on this sites is...only three things work enough to make a difference propecia,minoxidil and nizoral...as for transplants its an option but if you can just buzz your hair and move on with your life you will save alot of money and you will not get yourself involved with any of the risks of surgery or need for future procedures or whatever else.I for once i am against transplants unless you are nw6 with realistic expectations

you dont seem to remember how everyone was drooling back then lol. Remember tsakalos case?Do a quick search...by the way he started using avodart after his transplant and he was the most amazing Armani transformation (coincidence?)

Hello Bill i agree surgery has risks and when clinics push the boundaries to the limits it might be spectacular at first but down the road is more risky.A conservative approach from a surgeon might not looks so spectacular at first and even draw negative comments but i find it more thoughtfull... Actually i think all surgeries should be at least planned with the assumption that the patient will end up nw6.Furthermore pictures of nw6 patients restoration without using drugs should be shown to prospective patients to explain to them what they most likely end up look like when they will loose all their native hair Actually when i want to see results like this i turn into the site of Dr.woods to get a reality check lol by the way you said that you moved my thread here because it was not relevant in the transplant section.I think it turned more than relevant now and maybe it should be moved there...

Its an approach with many flaws and its getting even more dangerous when clinics take it to the limit just to look better than others. Things are pretty simple for me the graft numbers make the whole difference the more hair you have the better you look.The most talked clinics the last years were two.Armani and H&W The first one stuffed thousands of grafts on people with very little hairloss and the after effect loooked spectacular. The second one took massive strips that go around the head in certain people who had the laxity and density and created these spectacular cases.Add to that avodart which is not approved for hairloss and you got the picture. the point is both these two clinics gave what we want which was...amazing transformations.But we have to keep in mind that given the nature of hairloss it self, the limitations of donor, and the unknown long term effect of hairloss drugs...how these transformations will hold up in the future. People are paying enormous amounts of money...what happens if suddenly you have to stop propecia or avodart to sides or other health issues?What happens then?Hairloss is progressive and it wont stop intil you become nw6-nw7 and your donor thins out also!You will go around with a massive scar and a bunch of odd hair? In my opinion no matter how difficult this is to happen...i think noone should have a transplant until he progresses to nw6 or see pictures of people who are nw6 and had transplants without taking any drugs.Thats how we will understand if we want to have a procedure or not...by seeing the brutal truth of transplants in the worst case scenario.

Obviously we are right...propably thats why he is avoiding the issues raised 3 days now. Why dont you prove to us Joe that i am wrong since you are here promoting transplants?Show us a patient of H&W who had a transplant 20-30 years ago to see how he looks now...

I dont have to do shit..i am not here on payroll and i do not sell anything to anyone or take business away from someone and direct them to me like consultants shills and salesmen might try to do by FUE VS Strip debates or whatever I am expressing fears and concerns for the future and when i do and get answers like "its time for you to prove those fears" i am concerned even more... because as you must allready know (yet you gave me this answer) its impossible to prove what we fear that will come in the future for patients that have their surgeries within the last 7-8 years.

you left out the Armani nw1 hairlines that i mentioned they also work, end of story...but at what price? I am sure everything that pushes the boundaries of hair restoration has a price...its not something magical that one doctor did ... and that includes H&W megasessions...there the price could a be the longest strip scars that go around the whole head!! and since i believe all clinics have good and bad and there is no perfect clinic I will tell you the bad that i see and you tell me what you think 1. It doesnt sound so good for a clinic to endorse a drug like avodart which is not approved for hairloss and its for another illness. 2. It doesnt saound so good for the strip to start and end so close to the nw6 borderline area...what if you nw7?What if you develop sides to the drugs one day and you have to stop them. 3. What percentage of people coming at your office have the laxity for these megasessions of 7000-10000 grafts? is it over 5%? Its not about H&W ofcourse i just gave you some examples.But generally i find funny when clinics give so many grafts and fill hairlines on youngsters or give scars so close to the nw6 area on the sides...and when we question these things people come and say the clinic takes your family history and hairloss pattern into account and blah blah blah. Just one question if every case is so different and it depends on the case the graft numbers the plan etc then why ALL THE STRIP SCARS ARE A SMILEY FACE THAT GO UNDER THE NW6 AREA???if the future hairloss or pattern or whatever is different and each approach is different then why we dont have different kind of strip scars...i ve never seen a strip scar not going under the nw6 area even in 20 years old with nw2 hairlines!!! ...and if you go nw6 then why not nw7 why not your scar to be completely obvious one day?

I ve been surfing these forums since 2001-2 (if i remember correctly).Thats about 7-8 years so guess i have seen the lot and it was quiet a ride so far. Once in these forums there were 100 different treatments that almost everyone was buying and trying..all of them proved to be nothing worthwhile and in the end propecia, rogaine and nizoral ruled and people gave up on these supposed treatments.In that times i remember when people were giving up on this crap and also gave a bad review there were always "the others" (i will call them that)...that were coming in the threads giving the speech "just because it doesnt work for you it doesnt mean that it doesnt work" or "you have to give it a full year" or "you dint stick to it" or "up your dose".Well no matter what they were saying people woke up to the reality and stopped trying and paying for these crap... It might sound bad but actually it looked like good times to us... Times full of hope. We were all there, trying,reporting things like "i saw 2 new hairs" or "i think its doing something" or "my scalp turned red" lol.Unfortunatelly this artifical "hope" climate was a fluke and the reality was that only two things worked enough to make some real difference...I guess we all lost some money back then in BS treatemetns and still do on lazers or whatever. That times also hair transplants were very cool!!!I mean H&W had megasessions, Armani was giving nw1 hairlines, DHI was experimenting with 10000 grafts FUE, Cole was using BHT and we thought that "even if i run out of donor...SO WHAT...i will have BHT ".Everything was positive and full of hope...and that was the fairy tale.A fairy tale that noone could spoil, especially or two critics or some failed cases... But this is 2009 and people are much more educated and they do not want fluke hopes.They question things,,,they question the totally natural result claims, the donor issues, the overall look of modern transplants...and as they do they know day by day that these transplants are not such a good solution for the vast majority of hairloss sufferers (for some it is) This realizations created the so called "negativity" in forums in contrast with the fluke hopes of the years before...its not the fault of some posters that have to be banned(the hairlosshelp case) is just the simple truth in my opinion... i hope that noone gets offended from my post is just my personal observation and what i think about transplants...maybe its the minority view in these forums but i believe that is because the majority that share it do not post in these forums or even considers the transplant option.So for the posters that still research i just want to highlight that what might seem as the majority view in hairloss forums might actually be a very small minority view in the real world...so just be carefull

I ve been surfing these forums since 2001-2 (if i remember correctly).Thats about 7-8 years so guess i have seen the lot and it was quiet a ride so far. Once in these forums there were 100 different treatments that almost everyone was buying and trying..all of them proved to be nothing worthwhile and in the end propecia, rogaine and nizoral ruled and people gave up on these supposed treatments.In that times i remember when people were giving up on this crap and also gave a bad review there were always "the others" (i will call them that)...that were coming in the threads giving the speech "just because it doesnt work for you it doesnt mean that it doesnt work" or "you have to give it a full year" or "you dint stick to it" or "up your dose".Well no matter what they were saying people woke up to the reality and stopped trying and paying for these crap... It might sound bad but actually it looked like good times to us... Times full of hope. We were all there, trying,reporting things like "i saw 2 new hairs" or "i think its doing something" or "my scalp turned red" lol.Unfortunatelly this artifical "hope" climate was a fluke and the reality was that only two things worked enough to make some real difference...I guess we all lost some money back then in BS treatemetns and still do on lazers or whatever. That times also hair transplants were very cool!!!I mean H&W had megasessions, Armani was giving nw1 hairlines, DHI was experimenting with 10000 grafts FUE, Cole was using BHT and we thought that "even if i run out of donor...SO WHAT...i will have BHT ".Everything was positive and full of hope...and that was the fairy tale.A fairy tale that noone could spoil, especially or two critics or some failed cases... But this is 2009 and people are much more educated and they do not want fluke hopes.They question things,,,they question the totally natural result claims, the donor issues, the overall look of modern transplants...and as they do they know day by day that these transplants are not such a good solution for the vast majority of hairloss sufferers (for some it is) This realizations created the so called "negativity" in forums in contrast with the fluke hopes of the years before...its not the fault of some posters that have to be banned(the hairlosshelp case) is just the simple truth in my opinion... i hope that noone gets offended from my post is just my personal observation and what i think about transplants...maybe its the minority view in these forums but i believe that is because the majority that share it do not post in these forums or even considers the transplant option.So for the posters that still research i just want to highlight that what might seem as the majority view in hairloss forums might actually be a very small minority view in the real world...so just be carefull

Hi predator I understand your frustrations and all, i dont know what to tell you exactly and i dont want to play the wise guy about how many months you should wait or your expectations...i just want to say this. Personally i think your hair and your hairstyle is awesome and i like it a lot, if i was you i wouldnt bother my head too much with this for a while and just wait.You look very good and stylish but loose the moustache lol

I dont think its right!What if you decide not to have the surgery afterall because you had a last minute change of heart? Now you dont have that option and i think thats why the doctors do that. I understand that its not good wasting the doctors time but loosing a small deposit is enough they dont have to take all your money beforehand so that you dont have a chance to change your mind!!!

LOL it's pathetic he talks to himself and laughs alone In his posts.I actually feel sorry for him he hasn't even ever shown his faceand he is a moderator...he is just trying to make money out of this thing at least the moderators here are well known and are not afraid to show their faces. I am bored he has exposed himself and that site is done only newbees will stay there.I think after all this you have to be a shill or a consultant to stay there after this scandal

Disgusting i want to see what Farell will say now that he was saying that this whole thing is an attack from the HTN against Dr.Armani and his site.He easily associated his site with that doctor as if they were the poor victims... Also he defends himself by saying that all the doctors do it and in all the forums with patients...i thought he could not act on heresay lol.He uses heresay very easily when he has to defend himself and he does not need proof to frop all the doctors and all the forums to the level his has dropped but he couldnt protect the posters or at least not let his forum turned into a shills world. Everything is pathetic...the dirt is coming out and who knows what else will come...SEE PATIENTS IN PERSON DONT TRUST ANYONE!!!

WHAT IS THAT??????????????IS THAT A REAL CONTRACT????? This is disgusting and manipulating...i guess its only with certain patients not all agree to sign this crap I am sorry to say but this document threatens to demolish the credibility of the hairloss forums on the internet. It brings down the reality of information we receive from patients as feedback.And it generally stands again everything these forums are made for...real feedback from other hairloss sufferers.I am glad this forum took a stand and still does. What is amazing is that guys like us could cense and spot the BS for a long time now and spoke about it and Moderators, consultants, guys that spend their lifes in forums did not speak about it.I only remember Peter Mac challenging certain claims and taking a stand but he stopped eventually. I guess the threat to HLH was me and lostmyswagger that we got banned and not others that fed us or cheerleaded the BS for years.We were the problem of that site, we were accused of "negativity" !!!how can negativity not occur when we see the BS and we scream about it and they just let them feed it to us no questions asked!!!How can we not be negative when we find out that the quality of some of the information we received was paid services? I have to say...Well done to the moderators of this site for trying to protect the public from manipulation, Thank you so much i just wish i was more a part of this site in the past. ------------------------ also i would like to say i am sorry for my tone lately of mistrust to forums in general, i think Bill understands what i am talking about... I should not generalize unless i have examples, there is no excuse for "negativity" towards you especially when you are actually fighting a fight for all of us.cheers

Hopefull, I'd like your feedback on the post I addressed to you please. Best wishes, Bill hi thanx for the long answer...i understand what you are saying. dont get me wrong lately we have seen some very bad examples and people are generally suspicious ( i dont mean from this forum). I still think that IDEALLY forums should not take money from doctors and should be based on donations or something but its just my opinion. also i dont understand how can doctors or companies sue you guys for what people are saying here???I mean people buy stuff and leave reviews on various sites and some reviews are very negative, but i dont see the manufacturarers suing the site that let people give bad reviews. I have seen people calling products scam, overpriced garbage, save your self the money, mine broke...e.t.c. why in these forums there is so many threats and lawsuits???

I know what you mean but people are not stupid i allready see many people abandanoning that forum. He raves about the forum being under attack but he should be more honest (first of all to himself) and understand that people will not forgive or forget so easily that he let the salesmen BS take over the forum and many people were tricked in that site. These forums are supposed to protect us from the BS not expose us to them... Add to that the fact that the deleted threads dont seem to come back...

Falkeros i dont bother to wage wars in hairloss forums that i know i will loose.I was just giving a friendly advice to LMS. If you want to know what i think about these forums in general i will explain it to you.There is a structural mistake in these forums that are supposed to help the hairloss sufferers.They take money from doctors and that means they cannot be unbiased and to a certain degree they can be controlled. I am not sure exactly how does this work herein practice (i know the theory) because i havent been posting here or following the forum, i have been in forums 6 years now mostly on HLH and hairsite.What i have seen is that bad cases dissapear, threads being deleted, posts deleted, people banned for criticizing doctors or consultants. also i have noticed companys, doctors can threaten to sue and then immidiately all conversations stop and noone can ever mention the product or clinic again. I am guessing that doctors and companies can sue forums because since they take money from other doctors they can make a case that you do it on the other doctors favour. Maybe these forums should not make money or be based on donations like other forums.That way people would be more free to post whatever they think about transplants without being marked as negative or whatever or that they try to bring down the indutry...is the industry so sensitive that cannot take one posters words or one patients bad experience or are the doctors so controlling and (rightfully so)since they pay money to be advertised here and do not want a negative marketplace being formed Just to give you an example of what i am saying in regards to this forum...why you care if john36 is angry with the industry and speaks about it?Let him make his case and pursue his own road and share what he wants to share...lets not just tell him to be repaired and move on.Maybe thats not what he wants to do maybe he has another mission why his mission is so threatening? i am in noway against this forum in particular i spoke about hairloss forums in general..(at least you took a stand and fought a lawsuit others even with the sound of lawsuit shut everyone ups)i am just expressing what i feel is a structural fault that can never make these forums completely patient based.