wylie

I have my own suspicions on why a repair forum is disallowed here, but I will keep them to myself. It certainly will not advance the cause of adding a desperately needed forum for repair patients by acting adversarial.

The thing is, repairs are not a result of a bygone era, there are people being butchered right now, who are out there seeking answers and support online, and finding nothing. I know the feeling quite well myself.

Pretending there is not a need for such a forum is quite troubling on many levels.

As expected, a thorough, detailed, and most informative reply, and I very much appreciate it.

If someone could lighten up black ink enough to blend in well with brown hair, and I could trust the operator to go around 1mm in depth with the application, I might give permanent SMP a try on my numerous strip scars. I have done temporary SMP on them and the efficacy of this has been somewhat limited, and the application process is three phase (a few weeks in between procedures), meaning three round trips of driving is necessary.

I am excited about having this done during the next phase on something other than scar tissue, and first two sessions are done back to back, with a third touch up as needed. And I expect I to see a much greater effect when done on something other than scar tissue, but as far as the strip scars are concerned, don't know of anyone I can trust to use permanent ink that won't turn blue on scarring.

If you know anyone reputable in the industry in the U.S. you can shoot me a PM if you don't mind doing so.

Thanks again for your answers, you're a huge source of information on the topic.

Since you seem to know more about SMP than any of the practitioners who post their results here, what are your thoughts on permanent SMP for scar repair? I'd especially like to know your thoughts on the viability of the ink used to not fade and change blue over time.

Is it feasible in your opinion to expect a brown ink to not change colors over time? I would never attempt the use of permanent SMP anywhere other than scar tissue that is covered by hair, the risks are just too great for me.

Don't be a wise ass!! lol

 

In all my SMPs there have been significant change from the the freshly minted to the one month point.

 

Day One

The dots look larger.

It looks more 3-dimensional.

More defined, sharp, some parts look too defined.

 

Days Thirty to Sixty

The dots toward the surface have shed/bled away, so the underlying layer is left.

The underlying layer;

-looks less sharp and the tones are muted, more blueish-grey, less defined, more opaque. You lose the contrasts in both color and depth that give it that 3D look on day one.

 

But!!! if you have some hair, you can give it texture and you are still OK..

OR if you have darker skin pigmentation the above "issues" aren't nearly as much of a problem.

 

A good thing is that sometimes the operator seems to have dumped too much ink in a particular spot and that will soften.

 

Remember that SMP is literally hit-and-miss. There is no telling the depth of your barrier between the epidermis and dermis UNTIL the ink actually starts going in, and then it still relies on the sharp reactions and response of the operator to observe and adjust accordingly. After adjusting, they have to stay sharp because this depth varies throughout the scalp which might require further adjustments. If they just 'plough on' regardless, you will have 'clouds' ..literally darker areas mixed with lighter ones and my guess is you will be (should be) concerned about that. Needless to say, you have to trust them, with all the uncertainty that comes with it.

Great information scar5, thanks for sharing it. I think what would prove hugely beneficial is if someone in this industry would post pictures immediately after the procedure, at 30 days, and at 90 to 180 days, as a way to properly judge these results.

If the results lighten slightly over time, that is to be expected. I think what would be unexpected is someone in this industry revealing this type of expected fade over time. This type of transparency is desperately needed in this nascent industry.

So, we are keeping "The Follicular Follies of Balding Bob" as a sub forum, but won't have a "Repair" forum because it is "not constructive" and too "confusing".

Gotcha.

I think that a HT forum that is truly dedicated to the patient would have a repair forum. This is not a sub-forum found on many forums, and the reasons for this is are easy enough to guess. I realize that a forum like this one is no different than any HT clinic in business today, profit margins are the first priority of business, and a repair section is not the most effective marketing tool for increasing ones bottom line.

But if this forum truly wanted to take the next step and distance itself from the competition it would be well served to create a separate "Repair" forum. It would serve as a useful tool for what constitutes a large part of the HT industry today, and that is doctors performing repairs. A dedicated sub-forum would be invaluable to those seeking advice and information, and it would concentrate repair threads and make them easier to find.

It's really a shame to see a barely visited sub-forum called "Balding Bob and the Follicular Follies" on this forum and nothing dedicated to Repairs. Why not substitute what would be a high traffic sub-forum for one that is largely ignored? I think this would also raise the profile of this forum over other similar forums and, most importantly, serve as a valuable resource for those seeking repairs.

Thanks Since 13! Appreciate the tip. The scar issue occurred after seeing a doctor in Canada. Like I said, its not horrible, but its not great either. I just want to do FUE instead.

 

No word on Umar or Benham? Anyone?

I can recommend Umar, he did for me what not a single doctor on this forum could have, he repaired me using beard hair and an extremely limited amount of scalp hair (less than 1500 grafts, including nape hair)

I would, of course, recommend anyone to do a thorough amount of research before choosing someone, but most impressive to me was having a natural looking hairline for the first time in almost 20 years. FUE was able to harvest scalp and nape hair that was unavailable from a strip surgery, and I too would definitely recommend FUE. After that he was able to hide the 'mini grafts' of 90's infamy.

IMO, strip surgery will soon be obsolete, and as new doctors begin to join the ranks of those practicing FUE, there is going to be alot of guys out there seeking repair from inexperienced surgeons giving subpar results. Good luck on your search and whomever you choose.

It's flat and not red. Don't really know if I want to go to a " new" business. Was hoping to get feedback on an existing clinic.

You would be smart to try temporary SMP first, which Hairthere is going to be offering in the Northeast. If you opt for permanent SMP then I hope you do your homework and know what you are getting into, cause if you are not happy with the result you will have it for the rest of your life.

Hey there friend, I appreciate the very kind words. I know I have been rather dormant on this forum as of late, mainly due to being preoccupied with my personal life(all good things though) but I am always here for anyone if they need someone to talk to about anything. Be it a hair transplant, depression stemming from hairloss(or anything else) etc. I have always prided myself of being totally unaffiliated to anyone. I receive no financial incentive at all. But I prefer it that way. Reps cannot say the things that I say, they cannot say "that doesn't look too good" to a clinic-posted result. They cannot say "I don't think Dr X is good at FUE" etc. I really would not have it any other way.

 

For years, many strip clinics were spreading deliberate misinformation campaigns against FUE(low yield being an inherent factor in FUE, FUE only being good for minor recession) while FUE clinics were either silent or making fictitious statements about FUE(Diep labeling FUE as scarless in his Youtube videos, Atlanta Dr claiming Acell regenerates hair in the donor area). No clinic stepped up and brought truthful information about FUE, information that should have been public knowledge from the very start. I had to scour the internet to find documentation and proof that strip distorts the natural geometry of the donor. That strip eradicates the progressive hair caliber gradation in the donor amongst other things. That strip discards the dormant hairs in the strip because they cannot be seen even under magnification. That the hair coming out of the much-appraised trichophytic closure often exits at absurd angles. These are things that both strip and FUE clinics have known about for over a decade and NO ONE put it down in black and white for the patients and potential patients so they could make a totally informed decision. So while I am very proud of the work that I have done, you can see why I am very disappointed and angry at the industry for pulling wool over the eyes of the patient.

 

Most(not all) reps are sanctimonious in that they do not see that they are consciously or subconsciously promoting an agenda sometimes at the expense of the patient. They believe that their clinic never has bad cases and that their surgeons/employers are some kind of Christ-child or savant, free of flaws. They never admit the fault of the clinic for a bad result, instead they target "patient physiology". Then why do they offer a repair session on the same patient if the patient's physiology is a fixed factor?? I could tell you stories about some well-regarded reps that would make your local second hand car-dealer look ethical.

 

These statements of mine make me a popular person for patients and potential patients looking for honesty, but they also make me very unpopular to clinics and surgeons. I would not have it any other way

This is a great post Mickey, and absolutely spot on.

To the OP: Those who attempt to minimize your questions will usually be either the reps themselves or the owners of this board. There is nothing whatsoever unique about any of this, as large amounts of money are made in the HT industry, and the potential for abuse is systemic in any industry with profit margins like this one. As hard as some people try and distance themselves from the past, it was only a few decades prior that this entire industry was anchored to a foundation of deliberate misconception, giving the "industry standard" mini and micro grafts, which succeeded the hideous plug graft. Has this industry progressed since the dark days when disfigurement was the "industry standard"? Of course it has,thanks to technological advances. Have forums like this one (and the spokespersons for vetted physicians) helped the prospective patient? You bet they have. Does the potential for abuse remain? Absolutely.

Your questions are entirely valid and far too rarely brought up for discussion. The patient (and to a lesser extent, discussion forums and the industry itself) benefit when questions like yours are brought up for discussion and topics like these are exposed to sunlight. When reps get defensive and try to minimize your concerns, that is when you have every right to become skeptical, and believe me, you have every right to be skeptical.

Radix Omnium Malorum Avaritia

That's a great result, and he must be really happy with it. Am not sure if the blurry picture (#3) is a pre-op side view picture or not, but the 5 month picture shows a great yield already

I don't have an answer as to why this is happening, but I am grateful that someone in the community of hair transplant physicians is actually asking the question. Over the past 20 years I have always noticed a distinct lack of introspection on the part of physicians in this community on matters such as these, and an unwillingness to ask questions as to why patients are needing repair and how to address the often inherent lack of accountability amongst the community as a whole.

While your query may only be a ripple in the ocean, it is a very welcome and valuable addition to past and prospective patients alike. I commend you for asking it, as well as employing such a large staff of technicians.

My own personal opinion is really it always boils down to money. Do more with less is practically a virtue these days, except, well, it isn't. It means less overhead for the doctor and it means less attention is paid to the patient. And the results are often another patient steps onto the repair treadmill.

Any industry where egos, large sums of money and no regulation are in play is bound to have abuses, be it this community, Wall Street, or wherever. We can all judge a doctors results by the pictures they post, but how can we measure their integrity? We can start by asking questions like the ones you raise.

Those weren't plugs, those were mini grafts. Yes, there is a difference, in both size and extraction method. True plugs were not harvested through strip surgery.

Nice repair work indeed. This patient is extremely fortunate they have dense, thick, curly hair. Were it a Caucasian patent with fine, dark hair against a pale complexion the repair would have been much more challenging, considering the low hairline and widely spaced grafts.

Well done!

We all have seen the pictures and results of SMP scars where the head is shaved. How does it work with a non shaved head. It seems there would be a lot of patients who would like to conceal their scars without having to shave down. Does SMP work for that. Does anyone have pictures of such a procedure.

I know that if you are using Milena Lardi temp. ink you do NOT need to shave down for your strip scars. I have numerous strip scars and cut my hair in back pretty close, probably a two guard, to make them easier to spot but it was not necessary to do that.

Chances are very high that most of the work, around 70-80%, will be done by the doctors technicians, not the doctor. The doctor will make the recipient sites, remove the grafts, and design the hairline. This may be of paramount importance in the overall result you get, but cutting the grafts and placing the grafts, the very jobs that require dexterity, are being done mostly by the technicians.

I don't see how age would be an issue regardless, unless you are worried that the doctor will get tired more easily, and chances are he won't be spending enough time on your noggin to get tired. If he does spend enough time to get tired, you have chosen a doctor who spends more time on his patients than most do. So you have chosen wisely.

The lesson is age is not a deal breaker, rather, your concentration should be focused on their results.

That is a terrible shame, I'm very sorry to hear this. This community has lost two young doctors recently, Dr. Limmer, who was only in his 40's, and Dr. Siporin, who was only 51.

My condolences.

Wylie, congrats on your sessions, I hope it all works out. Is the scar at least permanent? Anyone know anyone who has had this done several times over the course of 5-7 years? My concern would be the effect repeated sessions over the same area of the scalp over the course of say 10-15 years, bc this is a never ending process. I guess we won't know for sure until that time comes. I believe there is plenty of truth to the article i posted, but if it works for you, and u are happy with the results, who am I to say this isn't a good option? Best wishes for your second session mate! I hope you come out looking like a rock star, cheers mate!

Appreciate the well wishes Ken, I have seen an improvement after one session on one side of the strip scar area, but the other side, which was worse going in, still looks pretty barren by comparison, so round two I'm going to want to concentrate on the left side and likely have twice the amount of ink in this area than the other side.

The pin pricks from only going into the upper dermis are barely noticeable, but some areas do seem to be more sensitive than others. The scars I barely felt, but the virgin ground on the sides were more sensitive, with max. sensitivity at the apex of the sides (where the sides meet the top) But its still fairly minor on the pain scale, I didn't wince once.

So time will tell if this provides an effective cover or not, the scarring, while very numerous from multiple strips, at least does not have raised scars or even discolored scarring, so that helps me as to whether or not it will be effective. Round two at the end of January.

Ken, I think you have done a good job researching the subject but you are all over the map in your assessments of how temporary tattoos work. I had my first session this past Friday, and will have my second session at the end of January. The change after one session is very subtle and hard to discern, and it was done to the back of the head and the sides of the head, just forward of the ears. I hope the next session gives a more noticeable color than the first one has, and REALLY wish the results would last 3-5 years, but temp tattoos don't last that long. Since my head is not shaved I've found that before and after pictures reveal nothing noticeable, but the treatment is a three step process, and the second step yields the best result, allegedly. We will see.

Also, in the above article you quoted, I find very little of it to be credible, especially the last paragraph that quotes a secretary, as if she is somehow educated in her opinion. The doctor is correct about the dermis layer, but temp. does not penetrate this layer.

I've been reading up on this temporary SMP procedure and I guess I just cannot understand why someone would pay so much money for "results" that will disappear in 18-24 months. The word solution implies a permanent fix to a problem, but if the hair loss "solution" is only temporary, I would define this temporary SMP as a very temporary improvement.

You would be correct that it is a temporary solution, but the implication of a "permanent" solution using permanent ink that is likely to fade and change color over time (and, even more importantly, that bluish color will really look funny against a background of grey hair) which gives the recipient the peace of mind of knowing nothing is permanent, that over time you will revert to your natural state. A permanent solution often morphs into a permanent problem.

Living in a state of anxiety over whether or not your pigment will change colors is no solution. There really is no permanent solution at this point so the next best option is using ink developed by Milena Lardi that will fade over time. I think your timeline is off, if the ink lasts 18-24 months it would be from subsequent sessions, not the initial session. I believe your body initially rejects the temp. ink much faster when first introduced, but over time I think the ink lasts longer as your body becomes more used to it and your natural defenses lessen. And since the needle only goes around 0.5 to 0.75 mm deep, and the ink is temporary, I don't believe any health related issues will occur.

Your first treatment is likely more of a 12 month lifespan, with the sessions administered around 4-6 weeks apart from each other (each treatment consists of three sessions, with the last of these being a touch up, if needed)

This is from this doctors website. Talk about being around 20 years behind the times.

Micrograft hair transplantation: This operation is one of the great success stories of the past 15 years.

 

Hair transplantation has been performed for the last thirty to thirty- five years but, until the development of the Micrograft, was not very successful. Not because the transplanted hair didn't grow in the past, but because the appearance of the large punch grafts used was unaesthetic and artificial.

 

By making the grafts much smaller, to include on average only 1- 4 hairs, far more grafts were required and the operation involved much more work and time, but the results were far more natural looking than they had been in the past.

 

or Dermabrasion: Dermaplaning, Acne Treatment | American Society of Plastic Surgeons

The work done by that man needs to be removed, then you can focus your energy on resolving the change in skin tone. You need to do copious amounts of research before you do anything.

I was a little surprised to see in the video the statement that "Chest had a 136% higher survival rate than grafts derived by beard extraction", which made me rethink chest hair altogether, if true. I had always thought beard hair was number one amongst non scalp sources in the survivability department. It stated that observed beard hair survival rates as "63 to 80%", meaning chest hair survival rates were over 90%?

Is there any explanation for why chest hair survivability was observed to be higher than that of beard hair? This is exciting information and I'm really happy to hear this!

Amazing what a huge difference that made, it looks like a very feminine hairline now, where it looked anything but feminine before the surgery. Well done.

My assumption is that all hair restoration practitioners in general are nothing more than crooks. They charge iutragous prices and make promises that arent realisic, whether they do smp or not. I had a bad experience with temp smp. After all of the money Ive spent and all my experiences I think it is fair and accurate to say they are all crooks. That is my opinion and others with have theirs.

Well, you have not gone thru a fraction of what I've gone thru with failed surgeries, and there are a lot of crooks in this industry, that's why forums like this one are so important, to vet honest doctors and expose those who are not, to allow patients and doctors to discuss their experiences, and provide answers and evidence for potential patients. I only wish there were forums like this when I first talked to a doctor about hair restoration. It would have spared me much grief.

After all I've gone thru over the past 20 years, I know not all doctors are crooks, and someday you should arrive at the same conclusion when you are not as bitter and angry. Over time you will.

Make no mistake, SMP scares me, that's why I'm sticking with temporary ink when I eventually find someone who can do it for me. The pool of those practicing this competently is very small, but I trust it will grow. I hope someone in the Midwest emerges soon that I can trust, but I've yet to find them.

Obviously youre affiliated with one of these crooks to spread disinfo like that.

Lighten up Francis, it's a joke. I'm not affiliated with anyone. I'm just trying to find someone good at SMP that is in the Midwest. Permanent ink is too much of a risk for me.

Rosie the Riveter? I don't know man.....