Ron5566

4 hours ago, mustang said:

here I am

I didn't know you had additional 600 BHT grafts to your donor 😁 So total 2,200?

What donor came from the latest 600?

Thanks!!

1 minute ago, Melvin- Moderator said:

Are you talking about @mustang that’s the only donor restocking thread that comes to mind.

Yessssss!! Ty!

Hi,

There was a thread about a guy who did HT with his legs hair and other parts of the body right to his donor. 

I am unable to find, anyone can send a link?

Thanks!!!

2 minutes ago, asterix0 said:

@Ron5566 This is a complicated story so it is hard to say, if you weren't on an anti androgen I would say that is the most likely cause.

I am by no means a finasteride advocate either. I take it begrudgingly.

What I think though is that it helps just keep push back against the recipient forces of one's scalp, and keeps the transplanted hair safe. 

For some patients, not all. To find the percentage is the real question.

I see.. what's your opinion about PrP?

Maybe if we can actually get more blood to our scalp, just maybe it may help drastically for some people.

I am really curious how my hairloss stopped and tbh only FUE explains it. (speaking on donor).

Just now, asterix0 said:

Yes, there is much scientific study on this:

"...long-term effects of muscles surrounding the affected scalp (including the frontal, occipital, periauricular, and temporal muscles) tighten the affected scalp, resulting in reduced blood flow to the terminal vessels at the top of the head and forehead, which eventually leads to a hypoxic state in these affected areas [23]. Moreover, DHT is prone to activation under hypoxic conditions, and it is the most crucial factor that terminates hair follicles and causes hair loss. Previous studies suggested that there were hemodynamic abnormalities including microvascular dysfunction and reduced blood flow in the alopecia region of AGA patients."

https://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2020/1501893/

Holy... Okay this MAY explain something I have been struggling to understand, would like to hear your opinion:

When I was 18-19 I went to do temporary SMP in my country, I went to crappy artist that used such a weak ink that faded off every month, I went twice a month for 3 months straight.

My hairloss was so aggressive back then, I was thining everywhere, after like two months I noticed my hairloss stopped, I thought I was imagined but it did stop, I know because Whenever I tried to pull hair, at least two came easily, whenever I shampoo I saw tons of hair, none came out during that time. 

8 years later I went under FUT, I am suffering from retrograde alopecia or even DUPA since it effects all my scalp, after the FUT producer I did lose transplanted hair (Because obviously, I was also shedding at the back).

Without going too much into this story which is complicated and you probs ask why I went to another surgery if I am losing my sides and back, I went again under FUE this time (To pick the best grafts on my head for small producer just to fill my temples to wear my hair piece successfully)

However, something shocking happened afterwards, I used to lose 100 hairs in my donor on daily basis (By donor I mean nape, sides, sideburn etc) I am two months post OP, hair is in the regular length about 2.5cm-3cm which is long enough, no matter how hard I pull, no hair is going out, zero hairs in shower, zero hairs on my pillow.

I was thinking what did I change again? And I actually wrote down everything :

1) Stopped working out

2) Slept outside my room for a month (I was thinking maybe because I sleep with router so idk)

3) Haven't sex for 2 months (Maybe lol)

4) And the last thing, I did FUE which caused tons of blood flow to my donor.

I don't know how to explain it but after your message, maybe, just maybe it's all about blood in my situation, would like to hear your opinion.

P.S - Propecia never helped me or slow downed my hairloss (took for 6 years straight and basically became Norwood 6 from 15.5-22).

The article you sent me is extremely interesting, thank you!

32 minutes ago, asterix0 said:

Also, saying just a blanket statement of insufficient blood flow is insufficient for proof.

Why?

Because Insufficient blood flow is a symbiotic cause of hair loss with androgenetic alopecia! Your scalp is in a hypoxic, inflammatory state that DHT is sent to to amelerioate. It is among one of the many causes that lead to the final result of hair miniaturization.

Usage of anti androgens such as finasteride is exactly what is used to prevent this. What do you think minoxidil is? A Vasodilator! 

You said something extremely interesting that I had no clue but explains something I thought helped me in the past but just to ensure I got this right, you are saying weak blood circulation in the scalp has something to do with people that are sensetive to DHT?? 

1 minute ago, asterix0 said:

@Ron5566 In your communication with these patients, or just researching their cases, do you know what number of them were also on an anti-androgen, such as finasteride or dutasteride?

I am positing that for patients with particularly high androgen sensitivity, these medications are very important in preserving the transplanted hairs. Even if these hairs appeared healthy in the initial donor analysis when analyzed through microscopic means.

How do I know this? Well, I have yet to see donor miniaturization examples where a doctor carefully analyzed the grafts microscopically in the donor, to see their miniaturization stage and assess it properly, only to have the surrounding area where the graft was taken from also miniaturize and thus render the analysis void.

More simply stated, it is highly, highly unlikely that a patient's transplanted hair can be labeled as "failed due to selecting a miniaturizing donor graft" if the surrounding follicles around that graft appear healthy and robust post operation.

That would almost imply that the surgeon deliberately selected miniaturizing grafts versus healthy ones, which we know no surgeon would do.

 

 

From what I remember non used any anti androgen medication.

However one of those who lost his transplanted hair started to take oral Minoxidil and it did grew a lot back (Transplanted hairs only).

It won't let me send a link to another forum so I assume this is against the rules.

I have no doubt hair transplant does works wonders for many but maybe this is truth and without Propecia it will eventually fall (Although I know and see people here who did HT 8 years plus ago without any medication and still kept their results).

I posted a thread here about a month ago:

I spoke with multiple patients in other forums and also here who lost their transplanted hair.

It has nothing to do with donor miniaturizion in those cases, Norwood 2/3 and even 4 won't even donor miniaturizion when he is 35-40 years old and even if he does, it won't get his transplanted hair destiny lower by 30-70% within 2-8 years.i

It's really upsetting that this topic is not being raised often, people are speaking what's better FUE vs FUT or other bs questions but ignore the most important thing, Does HT is permanent?

It does for any people that's for sure, however for the major people I think unfortunately it's temporary. I wish rep docs could actually aim in and let us know their opinion regarding this, I have no doubt that ALL the doctors who preformed over 1k surgeries encountered at least 20% cases over the years that their patients lost their transplanted hairs.

If I know personally 2 people (Out of three that done HT) then they should know hundreds if not thousands.

Donor miniaturizion definitely impact, no doubt, but the latest posts I have seen here about people complaining have no donor miniaturizion and again, even if they had, they are not supposed to lose 50% of theirs Destiny in two years unless their donor looks like hell now.

Men that's amazing!!!! So basically the legs/arms grew well?

So many people are complaining that legs are not good and won't grow, by your photos I assume it worked well for you? 🙂 Really happy for you.

4 minutes ago, aaron1234 said:

With miniaturization in the donor it's obvious to expect future thinning of the transplanted hairs.  What is not so clear is whether it's possible for HT's to thin over time even if the donor remains stable.  

I would replace "so many people" with "a select few".  It's all anecdotal at this point since we don't have a clinical study on the longevity of transplants to reference.

You are right.

Aaron, I just looked at your signature and see you had HT in 2008, did the transplanted grafts remained? Thanks!

35 minutes ago, anker21 said:

He should have not even gone there. This is the first time i heard someone saying that a HT will last for 5 years.

The thing is, so many people are losing their transplanted hairs after 5-10 years. Maybe it's more common then we think.

Just now, anker21 said:

@Ron5566 - if any doctor is telling you they will do a HT which will only last for 5 years why would you even want to go there? The safe zone for everyone is different it depends on the norwood level. A nordwood 2s safe zone is far greater than a norwood 6.

Not me, my brother's gf father 

22 minutes ago, jolly said:

who has said that any doctor can safely predict  where a safe zone really is  ? its all assumption ..... and who says that the so called safe zone lacks dht ? have you ever heard of donor safe zone miniaturization?  and how do you explain why so many guys have started complaining that their transplants are falling out ? 

my take , and maybe im wrong , is that we had many more people opt for HT after the advent of fue as most guys resist the linear scar and many feel its barbaric ... so most cases of fue  are relatively new around 2012 onwards , so now many guys after a few good years suddenly see a gradual thinning of their transplants .... and mind you neither these guys are having any  donor miniaturization nor are their safe zones been trespassed ( no good doctor would do that ) , and also the theory of native hair fall out is not  true , as most guys were slick bald in that area before the HT , so they are sure its not native thinning , so the only cause an effect i think is the dht being strongly circulated in the mid frontal and crown that is eventually causing the fall out ( if you are not on propecia ) , so its utmost necessary that we get on some dht blocking tactic or else we will gradually loose many/ all  transplanted hair along with native thinning also , but the sides are too over whelming from propecia  hence many like me just have no option but to avoid it .  

just my opinion  others surely can educate me , as im open to learning not debating .

I wish more doctors would answer, so many patients are complaining that their transplanted hairs fall after 3-7 years (Seems when the hair cycle is over)Especially on other forum, the only reasons I can think of are :

1) Once you transfer healthy graft to unhealthy zone (like hairline), its starting to be sensetive to DHT.

2) After the cycle is over the graft won't have enough strength to re grow (What's why I read that oral Minoxidil helped some after their transplanted hair fall)

3) Some grafts were taken out of the safe zone, if you do dense packing, 50/cm2 and you lose 25% of your donor which is not noticeable in the back but going from 50-35 or so grafts I believe makes drastic change which makes believe that 50% are gone.

What I don't understand is how the surgeon of my brother's gf father told him that his results will remain for 5-10 years.

This guy did FUT, he never progressed after Norwood 2, now, 10 years later his transplanted hairs are much thinner (about 40% are gone). He has no donor miniaturizion (I checked him under microscope and actually just looking at his donor you can see that it's healthier than 10 years old kid.

I will try to reach this doctor, he's from Romania and I will ask him why did he tell him that the results will last 5 years only, what does he knows or telling that no body else does. Btw he did FUT.

Just noticed you wrote Topical and not oral, my bad 😅

10 hours ago, TommyLucchese said:

Since October my HT has got thicker, I've got loads of new hairs growing all over including in between my HT hairline and in the corners.

Unfortunately I made 2 changes at once so can't be sure the exact reason: I started dermarolling all over once a week, and switched to a topical fin/minox combo where I literally get it everywhere..including my donor area.

My point is - 8 years after a very successful HT that still looked good - you can still do things to make it even better.

I try not to think about 20 years' time if the meds stop working and it all turns to a disaster. But it's already been 15 years and there should be new and even better solutions out further down the line so fingers crossed.

Woah nice to know! Does Topical Minx caused you any side effects? 

Many people say it lower your collagen which may cause you aging faster, not sure how often it happens.

Really happy it's working for you!

8 hours ago, aaron1234 said:

Very true!  So why are the "safe zone" hairs genetically resistant to DHT?  Is it simply that there is less DHT in that area? Do scientists even know why?  I'm starting to sound like a 3 year old, "Why? Why? Why?"

That's interesting.. maybe the DHT is not in the follicle but actually in the area?

3 hours ago, Melvin-Moderator said:

So basically are hair transplants permanent, and why some hair transplants fade after time? 

Yes, exactly (When there's no donor miniaturizion).

Please ask what would be the reason for transplanted hairs falling after few years when : 

1) Donor is 100% stable

2) health condition is perfect

Seems like many people are losing their transplanted hairs and they are never progressed after Norwood 4.

really curious regarding this issue when people doesn't have DUPA

Hey guys,

I am reading many threads lately that HT started to shed few years post OP. None of those patients are experiencing any donor miniaturizing.

Here's another thread I have seen:

Any doc can aim why does it happens when there is no health issue or donor miniaturizion?

Someone once told me if the grafts weren't implanted perfectly it could shed after few years. Idk if it makes sense.

My brother's girlfriend father done HT 10 years ago, he was Norwood 2 and the doc told him in 5-10 years they will thin and you will need a touch-up, well it did happen and now his transplanted area looks thinner. Her father has zero miniaturizion in his donor and never progressed over Norwood 2.

How many patients here actually done HT 15 years ago and still have their transplanted hairs?

12 hours ago, True said:

What type of hair system do you wear?

It's Thin Skin base

Here is without the hair piece by the way, although donor looks pretty thick there, it's not the case.

4 hours ago, DenverBuff1989 said:

@Ron5566  I'm not sure of the testosterone/science part of it, but there are many many guys who have hairloss when they are young and develop into NW3s and NW4s, and their hairloss stops - even without meds - and stays that way for the rest of their lives, or maybe it starts thinning, losing hair again when they are elderly. 

You have extremely aggressive hairloss, especially given your age and that it is already affecting your donor area. It seems you were not meant to have hair in this life. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but since your hairloss is already affecting your donor hair, I don't think you would be a good HT candidate. 

But your quesiton overall was about the hairpiece and keeping the donor hair just so you can wear a hairpiece. Say worst case your donor hair does go away, is it that much different getting a different hairpiece that covers the donor hair region as well?

Unfortunately yes, sides hair (Even if it's thin I can still work this out with proper cut in) but without sides hair I am screwed and won't make it look natural. I attached some photos of my hair systems so it can give you an idea, donor is thick now but this is not the case unless I cut my hair in specifically way and take a shower every morning to ensure there is no oilness in the scalp.

What is so frustrating is that I passed any obstacle just to get "hair", against all the odds after going to salons to get the hair piece done, which never looked natural to my eyes and I am extremely perfectionist, I was able to order my self and cut in myself to ensure no one will ever suspect. I am wearing for six years and extremely happy. Now when I see my sides fading away I still have solutions, I thought to do fade cut with SMP in the nape and blend it in etc, the only thing that freaks me out is the uncertainty, how bad my sides will look in 3,5,10 years. Does family members are indication? If so, I am pretty much set but again the uncertainty is killing me 😅🥺

Oh I get this now! So basically, it's not the amount of DHT but the fact that my hairs are very sensitive to DHT.

So if currently I am also shedding in my donor (Everywhere in the Scalp).

Does it means I am going to lose ANY hair on my head or some hairs, let's say 50% may remain in the scalp.

What age I can determine where I am heading? Looking at my dad's donor, you can see it's thinner, nape is gone but he still have lots of remaining hairs on his scalp which are enough to blend with hair piece in case he wanted to.

Basically my only concern is to have zero hairs on my head since I am shedding all over my scalp right now, it will ever be stable at some age or slow down? Or it's not possible to tell?

9 hours ago, tressful11 said:

Hello @Ron5566,
Just wanted to pitch in and let you know that I am one of those unlucky people for whom Finasteride didn't work. Others may find it difficult to believe because people like us are so rare, but we do exist. There are more like us on reddit (I have seen plenty of examples). Everyone's physiology is different and we all respond to medicines differently. Just like any other medicine, some people will do just fine, some people won't respond at all and some people will have dangerous side effects. If you want to see how lucky some people can get with finasteride you should check out @Shifty's thread. One of the best fin results I have soon.

Btw, I lost hair even on finasteride. Eventually I switched to dutasteride. While I didn't regrow any hair, dutasteride seems to have massively slowed down the hairloss that even finasteride couldn't handle. Dutasteride is actually quite prevalent in countries like Japan. If you can afford to import Topical Dutasteride, you try the oral fin and topical dutasteride combo. I think Dr. Lupanzola sells topical Dut. Take it wisely and Good luck!

EDIT - Also wanted to add that I have no side effects on Dutasteride. Everything is fine down there 😜

Hey man! Happy it worked out for you!! May I ask when you started to lose your hair? Was it aggressive as me?

Again, what I am trying to save is my sides/donor. I am already bald on the top and wearing hair system but because my DHT is so aggressive it goes all the way to my donor. Some calls it DUPA because there's over 20% miniaturized hairs but I think it's just aggressive Retrograde Alopecia since first I started to lose hair at the top and around 21 started to lose hair at the nape, side burn which in the last few years went all over the scalp.

My only fear is that I will wake up bald in my entire head and won't be able to wear the hair piece. Although I don't think it's possible to be 100% bald in the entire head I am little stressed about it and that's why I am thinking to start DUT.

Thanks again for the reply 🙏🙏

9 hours ago, DenverBuff1989 said:

@Ron5566 I'm only a Norwood 3, but will share my experience for what its worth. 

Took Finasteride for 2 yrs, no sides. Even with no more hairloss since taking Fin, I decided I wanted the best preventive measure possible, so switched to Dutasteride. Have been taking it for a year and a half, also with no sides. 

I haven't had any additional hairloss since starting Fin 3 yrs ago. Hard to say if it is due to Fin/Dut, as my hairloss wasnt THAT bad to begin with, but I will continue taking Dut to the day I die because I have no sides. 

Guys are often worried that Fin/Dut will kill boners. I'm not saying this isn't a real occurrence, but the way I see it, all guys' sex drive slowly but surely starts to lower once they hit their late 20s. Guys just see the correlation of starting Fin/DUT in their late 20s/30s, and see they aren't as horny as they were when they were 21, and erroneously blame the Fin/Dut. 

I am really happy to hear it worked for you! Since your hairloss wasn't so bad to begin with I believe it has a lot to do with that. I started to lose my hair when I was around 15.5, all my family members are norwoood 6/7. My blood is full of dam DHT 😅

You wrote : "guys' sex drive slowly but surely starts to lower once they hit their late 20s"

I don't know if it makes sense but is there a chance that in let's say 8 years (I am 27 now) the hair I am losing in my sides/back will be stable and maybe stop because my body will produce less testosterone?