Surfarosa

20 minutes ago, Euphoria said:

They are as permanent as the donor area they're taken from. 

That's what I had always believed. It's hard to see that the back of your head (donor area) is also slowly thinning but in my case I think it is and if I look at my father, his certianly has.

13 hours ago, ciaus said:

 

You didn't need a long post with speculation about hair transplants being temporary. This part I'm quoting above is all you had to say ^^.

We get guys on here wanting to just do hair transplants without any medication. And alot of the time they haven't even tried finasteride, too afraid because they've bought into the fear mongering online instead of working with their doctors.

To all those guys, here's one of those personal stories you don't really want to hear, but you need to hear. Yes its possible to do hair transplants without the meds, like our forum moderator @Melvin- Moderator who is doing great so far, but you're reducing the odds of having good outcomes. Because the brutal truth is that there are no guarantees, even when you're taking the meds.

It all comes down to how sensitive ALL your hair follicles are to hair loss factors, and assuming your doctor only took hairs from your donor area, even those donor area hairs can eventually become casualties to hairloss. Though usually the donor hair doesn't noticeably start thinning out until well into the elderly years, some guys are just genetically very unlucky and it starts sooner.  Which is all the more reason to STAY ON THE MEDS to also protect your donor hairs, wherever they end up on your head!

 

Why not speculate? Speculation is healthy especially in a forum environment? I am confused. I have not been conclusive because I do not know the answer, however I just posted the video that got me thinking for transparency. If you think I am trying to start a movement against HT - think again. I am looking to get another one, just with my eyes wide open.

Further - I provided photos of myself to show what I was talking about.

@Melvin- Moderator please advise if I am out of line here.

If you think questioning the long term reality of proceedures is a bad thing then I guess we just think differently. And that is ok - but I can post what I feel as long as it's within the community guidelines.

I have just posted about this subject in "And then this happened - part 2 with new photos (HTs 12 years later)

My fear is that this is the reality of HTs for many.

After engaging with multiple clinics, I have now come in contact with Dr Ball from the Maitland clinic who seem excellent and in line with the best US clinics. I also found a case on here identical to mine, from the US who had it corrected by Dr. Ball in the UK - thanks @Berba111.

The pics I have included are almost my full collection intended to show:

• Where I started in 2003.
• What I have tried to do here is seperate the transplanted hair from the native hair.  Not very flattering but it shows where I'm at.
• I have also included a back view - the crown does not bother me at all - I'm 47 FFS.
• I also included one in flattering lights and styled normally just for my own dignity
• Close up of recipient site left temple.
• My finished result in 2010 - front, left and right
• Single donor scar after 3 surgeries (sugeon went over the same scar (I also had PRP after surgery for better healing)
• A post surgery picture (surgery number 2)
• Crown 2010
• Crown 2022

Guys, these are not repair jobs. This is what happens 12 years after a HT. My other conclusions since this rounds are as follows:

1. Obvioulsy stay on your meds
2. You may still lose transplanted hair as part of the continuous process of hairloss
3. 1 proceedure will unlikley be enough unless you are NW3 and not progressing
4. Think LONG term

My big concern now is that I - and others much smarter than me - believe that there is no real evidence that HTs last beyond 5-10 years. There is growing evidence that it's not just where the hair was taken from, but where it was placed. For example if you took a hair from a donor area and placed in the side of your head where hair was plentiful and growing, it would last forever.

However, if you put the same hair on the end of your nose, it would likely be gone in a few years. This does not bode well for HTs into either bald scalp or scalp that will lose the surrounding native hair.

This may well be the very hidden, very dirty secret of the HT industry. If anyone is interested mafpe sent me a very well done video on the subject. Happy to post it.

The problem is that the source of patient info is the HT clinics. They rarely have patient photos updated from 5 years, 10 years etc. People move on and could be happy could be one explanation though. But if the truth was HTs last 5-10 years at most - the industry would die unless new strategies came to light that changed the game. And in this industry, that almost never happens.

I hope people find this rare look at HTs over an extensive period of value. I am posting these to give back to this community.

For those not familiar with my history:

• I had 3 proceedures with over 3000 grafts.
• First in 2003 - 500 grafts all singles FUT (250 in each temple)
• Second in 2006 - 1200 grafts all singles FUT (build up the sides, photo included)
• 3rd in 2008 - 1600 grafts all singles FUT (all hairline)
• I was on Propecia from 1999 for 10 years and then Avodart from 2009 but stopped in 2012 (stupid I know but I was done with it all and honestly forgot about it for a decade).
• I am back on Minox and Propecia now (2 weeks) and looking to fix my double hairline
   

I am also considering having my HTs removed completely as my goal now is to look natural not to look like I have a full head of hair.

Any

Today - direct sunlight

The dream result in 2010 after decades on meds and 3 HTS - taken with a flash for maximum effect

Today direct sunlight

Today - left-  revealing transplanted hair from the native hair

Today - right -  revealing transplanted hair from the native hair

Today - front -  revealing transplanted hair from the native hair

Yesterday from the back

Last week normally syled

Yesterday in bright morning sunlight through the skylight

Recent close up of left recipient area

2010 Finished result in bright sunlight - Front

20210 Finished result in bright sunlight - right side

20210 Finished result in bright sunlight - left side

2010 crown - but very tanned (36 years old)

2022 crown - no tan (47 years old)

2003 Pre any HT surgery visiting the surgeon for the first time

2nd surgery in 2006 - 1200 grafts. The focus was to build up the sides.

I finally got in touch with my doctor back in California and will be having a FaceTime with him tomorrow and will be able to update accurately on my history ...

On 4/15/2022 at 2:14 PM, Berba11 said:

Ok so your surgeries were FUT? You also mentioned "only single grafts". Something is amiss here.

Firstly, the benefit of FUT is that you'll use every last graft from the strip that's been extracted. However, that necessarily dictates that a surgeon may have to create single grafts from multi grafts for the hairline. It's not remotely likely that from a strip you'd have exclusively single graft hairs. You'll have some, but like I said, may have to "manufacture" singles from multi's by cutting them if there's not a enough singles for the hairline. Now, your hairline pics look soft and natural and with single hairs, so either enough single hairs were extracted from the strip(s) or the surgeon/techs were able to create some from multi's to make up any short fall. What confuses me here is the idea they were "all" singles? Additionally, most [good!] clinics will use singles in the hairline and then multi's behind to create density. They use or create singles for the entirety of the HT.

If somehow you have ended up with 100% singles, even behind the hairline, that would explain maybe the lack of density. If you implant 30 single graft hairs into a cm2 space, you end up with 30 hairs in that cm2 space. But if you implant 30 triple grafts hairs, you'll end up with 90 hairs in that cm2 space, and thus a greater illusion of density. It's actually slightly more complex than that due to shedding, but you get the idea.

With the above said, I suppose the opposite can be true. If for some bizarre reason there were literally only single grafts hairs on the strip of flesh removed from your head, and no thicker multi graft hairs at all, that would limit the density (as per the numbers mentioned above). I find it hard to believe though that from 3 surgeries you'd only have single graft hairs harvested. That sounds like nothing I've ever heard of before!

With FUE, a surgeon using microscopes can hand pick the grafts they extract on an individual level; thick juicy multi grafts for everything behind the hairline, and finer single grafts for the hairline and/or temple points. Likewise though, if they can't find enough singles, they may have to create some. Hence I find it highly unlikely that only single grafts were harvested. I'm wondering if whoever did your surgeries discarded the multi graft hairs. That would account for the fact you clearly have soft singles in the hairline (which is good!), it would account for the lack of density and it would account for both the appearance here and the assessment of another doctor that 3,000 grafts hadn't been implanted. 3,000-ish may have been harvested from the donor, but there's little evidence of that many in the recipient sites. But equally, if after three surgeries (I'm assuming all FUT?) you only have one single 2 inch scar, I'm inclined to think you've been absolutely had with regards the number of grafts you've been told were extracted.

I mean, it's your head... How many different strip scars were created and how long were they at the time? Is the fact you can only find a single 2 inch scar possibly due to very good healing + good hair coverage at the back that is masking much of the scarring/additional strip scars? Only you can tell us how big the scar(s) from each surgery was. Were they all FUT surgeries?

All were FUT surgeries yes. I have had 2 clinics check my scar + my wife, they say the same thing, only one scar. My doctor did tell me that he would be "going over" the same scar each time.

I know that my doctor would not dream of discarding FU's - not a chance.  I am starting to belive that 3000 singles were used as my work was all in the hairline, meaning the actual number of grafts is more like 1500 (asuming an average of 2 hairs per graft).

Therefore, it may be that I have not had that much work, and that work held together for 10+ years but has just started to be revealed due to further hairloss.
 

On 4/16/2022 at 11:16 AM, BeHappy said:

As Berba and yourself indicate I also think you probably had much less than 3000 grafts. In any event that's past. I don't think you are trying to deceive us, so lets just move on to the real issue which is what to do next. It looks like you still have very good donor, so I would just have one good session to fill in between the transplanted hair line and the natural hair line. It seems like that should be easy and you can probably hide the work if you don't shave your head and comb your hair to cover it, so you may not even have a noticeable ugly duckling stage. If that lasts for another 10 years then at that point you can go back for one more round to fill in a bit more and you are done.

 

That is a strategy I am considering. I would like to see if I get anything from going back on meds but TBH I did not notice an increase in hairloss when I stopped taking them at all and I don't notice much hairloss now (in the sink, bath etc).  Also, once I was happy with my hair (2011), I stopped endlessly checking my hair for hairloss.

Photo of my scar taken this morning.

Both clinics last week had a hard time finding my scar.

I just had my wife examine my donor area under multiple lightings. She can only find 1 singe scar that is no more than 2 inches long.

I think I have enough donor for 3000 more grafts based on what I have heard. Obviously my thinking is that if I have had 3000 - and they don't do much - cut your losses.

Hence - get them removed and live with it vs. get more - is my current dillema.

My old goal was "look good" my new goal is, "don't look like a freak for your kids".

4 hours ago, Berba11 said:

So in light of everything you've posted so far, it's this picture above that confuses me. I can't help but wonder if this is as good as your HT has ever really been and that the reason the other pictures look better is that things are longer. You seemed to have expressed surprise at the state of your hairline having had a haircut that was shorter. I guess I'm struggling to work out how you hadn't noticed that the density was lacking prior to the cut? Or did you notice prior to the cut and that's what made you try cutting it down even shorter as a possible strategy for concealment? And if you had noticed, when did you start noticing? In 2010 things looked pretty good in one photo...

 

And this 2010 picture confuses me even more. This looks great. It doesn't look like a HT at all and just a natural hairline. Now, I can understand how the hairline work could become detached from the rest of the hair if you lost more native hair between 2010 & now. But from your 'bad' photo that you've posted, I'm just not seeing anywhere near 3,000 grafts worth of work from the hair transplanted hair that remains.

The possibilities as far as I can tell are as follows:

1. You never had 3,000 grafts transplanted, and you've either been mislead about the quantity or it was 3,000 hairs rather than grafts and something has been lost in translation. As you've lost more hair over time, the lack of grafts has become more evident.

2. You did have 3,000 grafts but for some reason or somehow those grafts have since depleted in combination with your native hair near the recipient area, leaving things looking more sparse that before.

3. You've posted two pictures from 2010. One front on which I've quoted above, and one close up from the top left where you're covering your face. I'm seeing two quite different things. The front-on shot looks great, as mentioned. But the other angled picture from the same year reveals a more sparse look in the temple behind the hairline. Given your ability to make the hair transplant look decent or terrible based on hair length, style and photo angle, I'm inclined to think that another possibility is that the HT was never quite as good to begin with as your 2010 frontal picture seems to suggest. We all know that HT's are an illusion of density, and that lighting, angles, hair styles, hair calibre and hair length play important roles in that illusion. So my conclusion for possibility #3 is that you had an unknown amount of grafts transplanted (maybe 3,000, maybe less), and that either way the HT wasn't successful - either due to not enough grafts to begin with, or poor survival of the grafts. But you were left with enough grafts to get decent enough coverage under favourable conditions (longer hair). But with shorter hair and some additional hair loss, the 'success' of the HT's has been exposed.

If I had to guess, I'd say option number 3 makes the most sense. I find it hard to believe that you've had 3,000 grafts full stop, and that if you did have 3,000 grafts then the survival rate must have been poor. That seems a more reasonable conclusion than to believe that you had 3,000 grafts, the survival rate was high but somehow the transplanted grafts have undergone balding in the last few years. I'm not saying the latter is impossible, but unlikely, especially given that one of your 2010 photos provides some evidence of a lack of density behind the hairline (albeit enough to create decent coverage).

Trying to work this out is important for a couple of key reasons; How many grafts were really transplanted will inform us of the state of the donor as an ongoing resource. Additionally, if 3,000 grafts were transplanted but either a) didn't survive at a higher rate, or b) began to die off over time, then that suggests there might be an underlying issue that is affecting the survival and/or longevity of your hair, and that would need investigating before possible further procedures.

I cannot thank you enough for your kind consideration and brilliant analysis. Lot's to think about but all of your thoughts echo those that have been rattling around my head.  I did not notice, my wife who cuts my hair and is a stylist did not notice. Maybe I did want the shorter haircut to address an underlying concern? I am fitness enthusiast and trained through the UK winter wearing hats all the time (every day) - no vitamin D and head rub constantly?

When I went to see the London clinic - this week - that actually had a surgeon examine my head, he said "you have not had 3000 grafts, maybe 1500 at most" which suggests haircount vs. grafts.  He also said that he could do 2 proceedures based on my donor which would support that view/possibility. I found my notes in an old e-mail account and it said 3000+ FU (all singles)?

Follicular units could mean hairs vs grafts ?

Again, thank you for your interest and advice - huge help. I will keep you posted as I learn more...




 

1 hour ago, Berba11 said:

Apologies, I didn't see the bit at the end about 1500 grafts.

Would be good to see where they were actually placed with post-op photos for each surgery, if you have them.

I am trying to get my pre-op / post op pics from the clinic.

1. The first pic is pre op for the 500 in 2003.  250 in each side. No post op picture.
2. The second picture was the 1200 in 2006 to build up the sides and strengthen the hairline. Post op / bloody.
3. The 3rd picture is the 1 year after the final surgery in 2008/9 which was 1500 into the new hair line.

All were single grafts placed.

I have added another which was taken in 2010 from the front in natural light.

2 hours ago, Berba11 said:

We don't have much context here.

First of all, do you not have any pictures of the transplanted areas from back in the day? I'm struggling to see where 3,000 grafts were implanted unless you're saying that you've somehow lost the transplanted hair. It's normal for native hair to continue to recede behind the transplanted hair, but not the transplanted hair. Without seeing any of your post-op photos, it's difficult to assess what's happened or what was done.

Secondly, you keep trashing UK clinics, most of which are indeed quite bad. But there is one very good clinic that does have some track record with repairs, including FUE extractions along the hairline. When this is done well, scarring is often not at all noticeable. So which clinics in the UK have you spoken to? If you haven't spoken to the Ed Ball at the Maitland Clinic, he might be worth a consultation. There's also a couple of cases of large scale hairline extraction on this forum by Dr Feriduni in Belgium. The extraction scars are not noticeable at all. There's several very good Dr's around the world at doing this. If it's an avenue you want to go down, it's certainly viable and doable, but you do need to go to a specialist in this area.

I would like to address the UK clinic trashing. And yes - I trash them.  I care about all patients & the few good doctors that serve them. I do not care one single bit about business people cashing in on the insecurities of others. What bad clinics do is VERY harsh, they deserve only the harshest of responses. They do a bad job - they get paid, YOU - live with the results for the rest of your life. I have seen these people in the face of unhappy patients and they go from sales person to robot - its chilling becuase they have gotten that way through experience. Experience of seeling one thing and then dismissing the result and the human waering it for life.

My first visit to a HT doc was in London's Harley Street in the mid 90s. They were crap then - I could feel it. The would have done surgery when I was 23. My last visit was last week, they are still crap & I'm 47.

I will say this without remorse - they should not be in business. If I come across a great UK clinic - I will be the first to say so. Selling hair to those desperate for it - is not hard FFS.

Delivering a successful hairtransplant experience (s) for life is incredibly difficult - that's why so few are great and so many are not.

Between now and then I lived in the US for 20 years and have visited - in person - probably more clinics than anyone on this site. From Hasson and Wong in Vancouver (awesome) to the OGs of HT - Bernsetin and Rassman in LA - and many, may many more. I may be out of date - but back in the day - I knew my stuff better than most. I met doctors and patients over a 10 year period like it was my job - did you? I met Jotronic in person and had great conversations with him - did you? By you I mean the world - not Berba11

1. Don't trust any clinic where you don't meet the surgeon - just run.

2. Don't trust any clinic where the surgeon simply eyeballs you. If they are not using advanced medical equipment to determine your situation - run. The density of your donor area cannot be determined by the eye. The state of your hair your in the area that you still may lose it - cannot be determined by the eye (it can to an extent but not properly). Are they even taking photos and recording them to measure against for your next visit? Are they tracking your pattern of loss? Meds use?

3. Don't trust any clinic that try to close you, make your feel bad for being usure, offer you a "deal" etc etc

I could go on but I'm winding myself up & this forum covers this well already.

I'm trasing UK docs becuase they are still doing the very things this place warns against. I don't trash anyone without thought. They suck. Even if they did good work, I would not go becuase they are not even close to the standard of patient care demonstrated by the likes of Shapiro, Reed, Rassman, Hasson, DeYarmen, Carmen and others that are just coming back to me after a 10 year hiatus from this world.

The offenders you asked for?

The Crown Clinic - Doctor was offended I was unsure and took it personally. I have had 3 surgeries and my goal is not "more hair" - it's "don't look like a HT patient". Just as we see what we want to see, they sell what pays their bills. My Doctor told me no way more that he told me yes over a 10 year period. I don't care if you did Calum Best, he is still trying for more and they were way too open with what I consider HT Gossip. Also charging for the consultation - WTF ? 2500 to sort me out.

If your doctor needs £100 that bad, you need a better doctor.

The Wimploe Clinic - 20 minutes late for the appointment. The "expert" was a patient who called in a real expert (a tech) for credibilty. They told me the hair I have left will never fall out because it "looks great". Wow. My donor area was assessed by a technician and patient who then went on to both diagnose and prescribe the course of treatment. They could not answer questions like, "what if I lose the rest of my hair?"  "how much donor will be left?" And "why are you late when I travelled 2 hours and you travelled 30ft" ? 1200 to sort me out.

To be clear - I still rate my Doctor. James DeYarmen - I know the contraversy on here - and I know the man - Jim is a great human & doctor. This is the result of me being "over it" and stopping all meds/minoxidil etc and the limitations of HT. He did very small proceedures with years in between. No one can predict the future - his canvas seemed stable and then it moved. And it took 12 years to notice the change.

That's on me not him and I think he has left enough donor to pull this off if I get a good result being back on meds.

Sorry for the rant but I'm soooo disapointed in the UK sample I took. Still open minded though....

 

23 minutes ago, Berba11 said:

We don't have much context here.

First of all, do you not have any pictures of the transplanted areas from back in the day? I'm struggling to see where 3,000 grafts were implanted unless you're saying that you've somehow lost the transplanted hair. It's normal for native hair to continue to recede behind the transplanted hair, but not the transplanted hair. Without seeing any of your post-op photos, it's difficult to assess what's happened or what was done.

Secondly, you keep trashing UK clinics, most of which are indeed quite bad. But there is one very good clinic that does have some track record with repairs, including FUE extractions along the hairline. When this is done well, scarring is often not at all noticeable. So which clinics in the UK have you spoken to? If you haven't spoken to the Ed Ball at the Maitland Clinic, he might be worth a consultation. There's also a couple of cases of large scale hairline extraction on this forum by Dr Feriduni in Belgium. The extraction scars are not noticeable at all. There's several very good Dr's around the world at doing this. If it's an avenue you want to go down, it's certainly viable and doable, but you do need to go to a specialist in this area.

I have not heard of Ed Ball at the Maitland clinic but will look him up. I have contacted Dr. Jean Devroye in Belgium as he seems very repuatable and is not too far to travel. Thanks for the advice.

16 minutes ago, Berba11 said:

We don't have much context here.

First of all, do you not have any pictures of the transplanted areas from back in the day? I'm struggling to see where 3,000 grafts were implanted unless you're saying that you've somehow lost the transplanted hair. It's normal for native hair to continue to recede behind the transplanted hair, but not the transplanted hair. Without seeing any of your post-op photos, it's difficult to assess what's happened or what was done.

Secondly, you keep trashing UK clinics, most of which are indeed quite bad. But there is one very good clinic that does have some track record with repairs, including FUE extractions along the hairline. When this is done well, scarring is often not at all noticeable. So which clinics in the UK have you spoken to? If you haven't spoken to the Ed Ball at the Maitland Clinic, he might be worth a consultation. There's also a couple of cases of large scale hairline extraction on this forum by Dr Feriduni in Belgium. The extraction scars are not noticeable at all. There's several very good Dr's around the world at doing this. If it's an avenue you want to go down, it's certainly viable and doable, but you do need to go to a specialist in this area.

This is picture from before my first surgery - 500 grafts into the temples.

This is a picture from my second surgery - 1200 grafts I think

And this was one year after my final surgery in natural light.

Another 1500 grafts in the hairline.

 

NW3 yes.

My photos are quite extensive in my profile if you can see them & they go back many years ...

If you look at my case it could provide you with some insights.

Happy to answer any questions. 

I stoppped taking meds so I can't tell you what would have happened if I did not stop.

2 hours ago, BeHappy said:

There is something I'm not sure I'm understanding. Are you saying you had 3 procedures with over 3000 grafts total and only got that thin line of grafts along the front for all that work??

Thats what it looks like in the worst photo which is styled for emphasis - but you could say that. Its actually more evenly spread but its very thin ... which is why I am not jumping back in. I think the coverage that can be achieved with HT is very sparse when photgraphed harshly. Under good lighting I can make it look like I've never lost a hair on my head but that's just lighting.

In all honesty, I think medications did more for my hair than HTs ever did if this is the end result. However, I am just not sure ... judging hair is VERY difficult.

I will say that the 10 years spent not thinking about it were great! So that is something..... just need to figure out the next phase.

Stable on meds for 6 months then FUE into the problem areas seems to be the best advice I have gotten so far.
Doing nothing and/or removing the offending hairline is second.

Appreciate the feedback and advice.
 

I might do a post to warn people who have had a HT to keep taking their meds.

8 hours ago, asterix0 said:

Wait, so pretty much all your transplanted hair fell out around your hairline after you quit finasteride?

I'm not quite sure what has happened TBH - I just know what I am left with today.  It was not noticable - to me - until this year - after getting a very short haircut. My wife thinks that it's only noticable when I style it to look bad for these photos.

6 hours ago, Gatsby said:

If your hair was stable after the hair transplant and you were on meds then I would first go back on the same meds as before. Forget about a hair transplant use this time to do your research from the results on this forum that are in line with the results you are after. Then I would consider having consultations with surgeons you have chosen. Brushed forward it's not that bad and at 47 you have a lot of hair. All the best!

Great advice - thanks Gatsby.

7 minutes ago, drawdownfx said:

The only thing is .. you stopped finasteride, so would you still be going through what you are now had you been proactive with preventative medicine? 

Probably not, definately not as a bad. I am getting back on it to try and prevent anyting further. My preferred outcome is honeslty to do nothing more. But if I have to then I want the stability of meds and finding a doctor in Europe that I trust. I had my work done in the US and rate my doctor - this is not his error in my view it's just the nature of hair transplants.

This was my hairline in 2010 and people thought it was great.

Well if he did great work then its still great work, the canvas has just changed.

5 minutes ago, drawdownfx said:

Thanks for sharing your journey. As a 27 year old this helps a lot 🙏

You are welcome. You can only judge for yourself but you can only judge with information and that means not just looking at before and after (post op / 12 months out) pictures. "What will it look like in 10 years" was beyond what I could really worry about when getting mine done.

Your goals change with age - thank goodness!

8 minutes ago, Ad1987 said:

This doesn’t look too worrying as I had imagined …  Looks like a dense head of hair but just finer hair on front …I wouldn’t know there was transplant involved there .

 

can I ask , did you take the plunge initially at 35 and then this pic is 12 years down the line ? 

I took the plunge at 29 (2003) - small proceedure in the temples - 500 grafts. I had another in 2006 and again in 2008 - total is 3,200 grafts.

Just now, John1991 said:

Based on that, I'm guessing that the transplant was more or less grafts sprinkled in with your native hairline to add density, but not really lower?  Then with the non transplanted area disappeared you were left with this?

Correct. Sprinkled was 3000 grafts over 3 proceedures. That's why am warning you guys about seeking perfection in your hairline when you are still looking great ...

I have made the picture look HARSH because that's how we judge ourselves ...

With a bit of styling on that same day it's more like ...

With favorable lighting this would look totally fine.