Melvin- Admin

Delancy,

 

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative here; however, I don't think these quotes are being evaluated properly:

 

Dr Ron says 80% of the time, he believes the yields are on par with strip. So let's say this is 92% growth because Hairshopeing is saying my FUT averages are too high -- haha. This means 20% of the time, they are "visibly less." Visibly less means yields that result in densities below 40-45 FU/cm2. This means a growth of around 50%. So, again, let's do some math:

 

80% of the time * 92% yield = .8(92) = 73%

20% of the time * 50% yield = .2(50) = 10%

 

So let's add up the weighted averages: 73 + 10 = 83% overall average

 

And remember from before that yields in the 70s - 80s can result in FUG densities below the 40-45 FU/cm2 cut off that leads to a visibly thinner result.

 

So, again, we keep landing in the same range here. No matter how we try and play it, it keeps coming down to the same numbers when we really break it down.

 

So overall, yes I think the yields are in this range. And I really don't think people are refuting it much when you get right down to it.

 

And yes, research is key. But patients MUST have the facts. And hopefully this is helping.

 

Good post! Thanks for sharing.

These numbers pulled out of thin air where did you get 50% growth 20% of the time? You're assuming visibly less means 50% I don't think Dr. Shapiro said that, so again Blake these numbers are based on your perception. Furthermore, from what you're saying based on "visibility" 83% is not visibly thinner than 95% because visibly thinner= 50% thanks for sharing.

Never fails to see Blake comment on these threads claiming 80% yield for FUE, where are these numbers coming from ask yourself? when renowned physicians like Shapiro themselves have stated that most of the time i.e 80% of the time yield is comparable, im fairly certain comparable is more like 90-95%. He also fails to even recognize the picture that was originally posted shows 98%.

Wow happy for you, guess you're just a late grower, that's why I think it's important to allow the full 12 months before making judgements, eager to see updated pics.

Sam can you post pics? Pimples are actually common, they could be ingrown hairs, or folliculitis, if it's just a pimple or two it's probably just and ingrown hair, I have them too I'm also two months post op, it'll go away, if you're worried about it talk to your physician he can prescribe you something to make it go away sooner, you're freaking yourself out, it sounds like you're growing very fast which is a good thing.

Unfortunately, this gentlemen does not scar well, if he would've gotten strip it would've been worse, nevertheless, I would pick those scars 7 days out of the week and twice on Sunday over the strip scars previously shown. SMP would make these scars nearly undetectable.

Here is an update on what the patient thinks of the scarring.

 

 

 

 

Beautiful healing? This is from two of the top doctors in the world and the patient says he wishes he had gone FUE from the beginning.

 

 

 

It is ridiculous. Both patients will have to grow their hair longer but which one will have to grow their hair longer than the other?

 

 

 

Safest and most responsible? You just recommended multiple stretched strip scars compared to some dots. Why do you think these wide strip scars are beautiful?

It's a ridiculous notion to get "stripped out" then get FUE to thin your donor area and reveal those ugly scars, I feel bad for the guy in the photo, I hope he can get those scars fixed, maybe fue body hair in to the scars, I'd hate to see scalp grafts be wasted on a scar.

Seems like a loaded question to me. So here is a great comparison with hair length that is about the same. Three strips were performed with the more recent two strips performed by arguably two of the best strip doctors in the world, Dr. Hasson and Dr. Rahal. The top one is by Dr. Hasson and it looks really good for a strip scar, if not too high, and the middle one is Dr. Rahal which is even better except for a spot that had stretched on one side.

 

 

Based on these two photos, and even if you subtract the bottom scar and just go by the two that are left by the two top doctors, or just pick one and subtract the other to have one scar, I'll take a few dots on my scalp any day, thank you very much.

I agree, the FUE guy is an example of bad scarring from FUE, he probably would've ended up with a grotesque scar if he got the strip, comparing a bad FUE case and a normal strip case, there is still no comparison.

I dont understand the discussion? I thought everybody thought growth from fue was worse but the advantage is the different scar?

There aren't any studies on growth for FUE vs FUT so we can only go based off of physicians popular opinion, that is that yield from FUE is lower. However, the elephant in the room that no one discusses is visibility. Allow me to explain, we know hair loss does not become visible until roughly 50% hair has been lost, that's a huge margin, now let's say you get FUE by a top physician, let's say your yield is 5% lower than it would be if you got FUT, do you think that 5% is going to make a visible impact all? I don't think it would, the difference is so minuscule that it does not make a difference really in the overall outcome of the result, this is my opinion, just using logical common sense. Dr. Feller and other FUT physicians will say the difference is more like 20-30%, this is based off of their own experience with the procedures. Surgeons are not created equal, there are surgeons who are simply better at performing FUE, so they close the gap between FUE and FUT the most important thing is choosing the right physician.

Numbness is normal, it should subside with in 2-3 months, I had FUE months ago I had some numbness that is resolving itself now almost completely gone, nothing to worry about.

I'd recommend 1,200-1,500, you're almost 40 with minimal hairloss, the chances of you balding to a Norwood 6 is low, most men with aggressive hairloss would be significantly bald at your age, with all due respect you're not that young, being that conservative is for guys in their early 20's not for guys nearly 40 that's my opinion.

Just watched the video ...

 

 

 

 

So what is he actually saying here:

1) Approximately 1/3rd of the time you're going to have a VISIBLY lesser yield

 

2) 20% of the time you're not going to get the same growth, even when all precautions are taken

 

3) FUT growth is still the most reliable

 

I know I'm a little louder than Dr Ron, but this actually 100% in line with what I've been saying the whole time.

 

And again, this isn't anything crazy. I'm not sitting here saying FUE = bad and everyone should 'go strip or go home!' But I'm just saying that there are physiological reasons why FUE grows less on average. Patients should be aware of these when making their decision. A good chunk of guys will still accept this risk as a trade off for not having the linear scar, and that's perfectly fine!

 

Is that really so crazy?? Maybe I've lost it. Haha.

I like to look at it this way Blake

1) Approximately 2/3rd of the time you're going to have VISIBLY the SAME yield

2) 80% of the time you're going to get the same growth.

3) FUT growth is still the most reliable but comes with a big scar from ear to ear for life, and poor growth can still occur

Newbie, by responding to the question I'm not incinuating or implying this will be the OP's specific result, I think that was an assumption you made, I don't mean to be patronizing I'm just trying to make it clear for the readers of this thread. What you're saying that posting up multiple pictures of shaved heads will not be indicative of your particular result, sure that's true, but the same could be said about hair transplants in general, isn't that the purpose of this forum? To post pictures of your results and the results of physicians to give you an idea? Obviously results differ amongst individuals but it's truly helpful to the outside observer in making an informed decision, by your logic it's totally pointless to do this because that may not be the observers personal result, as a hair restoration patient I disagree, when I look at a result I don't bank on getting the same result but it does give me an idea of what *may occur, there have already been some thankful individuals on this thread that have found the information provided informative which is what it's all about to me.

No hard feelings Newbie:)

The implication of the OP's first post was that he wanted to see an example of a shaved down fue to understand what he would look like if he shaved down. The video shows what one person who's had it done looks like. Some people think it looks 'good'. If I showed a 'bad' result, then we'd be fifty-fifty. So the OP is left without knowing if he is going to look good or bad.

 

And that doesn't really give the OP - or any of us - a good idea of the chances of getting a good or bad result. Because what the OP really wanted to know were the odds of getting a good or bad shave down.

 

Let me extend this using a metaphor to a less controversial topic - race. (That's a joke - though I am going to use the metaphor).

 

Say we want to know what the average or 'standard' person from Sweden looks like - or, to be more precise, their skin colour. Neither of us has been to Sweden and we can't find any census information. We look on the net. You could post a picture of a white man from Sweden. I could post a picture of a black man. Does this mean Sweden is full of black or white men, or fifty-fifty? We neither of us have any real idea. We don't know the population of Sweden or the race of the people in it.

 

To extend the slightly tortuous metaphor further, let's say we have stumbled onto an internet forum and some of the posters are the census-takers in Sweden. We can ask them because they've been speaking with hundreds or thousands of people in Sweden. We assume they will have a better idea, but even they haven't seen all the census data.

 

In this example the census-takers are the doctors - and that's why I posted what doctors say about scarring. (The census would be some medical research and the like). And also why I didn't post a picture to refute yours - because I'm not looking to argue one case over another - I'm looking for data and trying to work out the risks involved and the odds of getting what I consider a good result. And maybe along the way try to make others who are reading work out for themselves what risks and considerations they should make before a ht.

 

Blake, how am I doing for patience? Matching yours? (I am trying hard).

Newbie, none of this makes any sense, I'm hurting I'm head trying to piece this together, ok so basically the OP asked if anybody had a picture of anyone who's shaved their head to the bone with the new modern FUE, the OP never asked about averages or a general census regarding FUE scarring this is your assumption. Additionally, you're original post did not correlate at all with what you're saying now,I basically answered the OP's question straight forward, if at that point you wanted to add to the discussion for your own knowledge you should've started off with what you're saying now, it's very hard to follow your points, I think I'm more confused now than when I started off.

Additionally, the analogy of what the average man looks like in Sweden is different, because visible scarring shaved to the bone is different than scarring at a 1 guard, I think a more appropriate analogy would've been what does the average mans chest in Sweden look like because a mans chest is not visible unless he removes his shirt, similar to the scars that change dramatically in appearance when the head is shaved, I fail to see how physicians appropriate census takers? Unless every physician is having their patients head shaved with a razor it's not possible for them to see what the scars look like shaved with a razor. Again, I think the best way to approach your question is to try and find as many documented cases where patients shaved their head after FUE and post them even if it was not to refute my original post, it would've created a larger pool of results in which potential candidates could refer too. That would be more helpful for someone to make an educated guess than posting something from a physicians website.

Jdoe,

 

Thanks for sharing. So these images are after the SMP to the FUE scars?

 

This is now the second case of SMP to FUE scars I've seen posted on the forums. And I must admit that the entire concept of selecting one procedure over the other to minimize the scarring -- at the sake of yield -- and then still requiring more cosmetic work to fix the scarring perplexes me a bit.

 

Regardless, glad you were able to get this the way you wanted it!

I must admit the concept of getting hair transplant via strip, then going back and using grafts via fue to cover up the scar perplexes me a bit. You're wasting valuable grafts that could've been utilized in the balding area, SMP does not remove finite grafts. Additionally, at the expense of yield is arguable and another topic altogether.

5 weeks is waayyyyyy to early to make judgements, no body with any ethics would agree to remove the grafts or perform laser removal, if after 12 months you're not happy, you can always have the grafts removed. I recommend not going to this site for at least 6 months and refraining from looking up HT horror stories, it's got you freaking out, it's quite common with any form of cosmetic surgery.

Are Hair-Loss Drugs Safe? The Truth About Propecia and FInasteride - MensJournal.com

 

There's been countless reports, each one more questionable than the next. With Merck going to court for the first time (likely this year) it'll be interesting to see the implications and findings.

 

If you can read this (in full) and take the drug with confidence, well good for you. But people need to be informed at least.

Prepare to get verbally assaulted by KO.

HTsoon shares my opinion on propecia for class 6. The horse has left the barn. No point in closing the gate now. Should have closed it, or considered meds long before that stage.

 

As to the interpersonal banter...I'll stay out of that, but my 2 cents are why spend the money for tree grow, when all you have there is a grassy field...

 

Dr. Lindsey

Good analogy

Whats truly "sad" is that you somehow equate being properly informed of the side effects of a particular medication as 'trying to ruin it for everyone".

 

At this point I'm almost convinced that you must be trolling. I just can't imagine any rational person NOT wanting to be aware of potential side effects of a medication they are considering taking. Any future post from you saying ridiculous things like how I'm 'ruining it for everyone' or 'making it all about myself' will be ignored by me.

 

Good day. ✌️

He's a troll I wouldn't pay much attention to him, he's deeply offended at anyone not glorifying propecia like him.

The purpose of this thread was to get information, not to hear your personal decision on taking it, because guess what, this isn't about YOU. If you don't want the risk, don't take it, just don't go lying to others about efficacy as you have done or constant,y parroting your personal decision as fact.

What information have you provided? You're just regurgitating information straight out of a commercial. When did I say finasteride wasn't effective? If you're going to lie about what I said I'd like you to quote my comment where I said finasteride is not effective, I said "most do not see regrowth" which is true studies show the majority of guys see no change, which in itself technically is effective if your hairloss does not progress, go back to my comments and you'll see I said " in my opinion" it's not my fault you have poor reading comprehension. If you're going to respond to this I want you to answer two questions, have you had a transplant? And are you a Norwood 6?

I've had a transplant and am a Norwood 6 and don't take finasteride in speaking from firsthand experience, I'm not just regurgitating infomercials without backing it up with my own firsthand experience.

From what you know, how much does Diep typically charge per graft? I know there are variables, so I am looking at a price range. From doing some research, I figure in the 4-5 dollar range per graft is fair. I can definitely afford more than that but my thing is, I want a doctor who is in the field is looking to help others then make money. Not make money first and help others second.

 

I saw Dr. Vories website, and he is high on my list from what I have seen. The only obstacle is distant. Dr. Diep seems to have great results as well and if his pricing is on par with Dr. Vories, I will go to him because of geography as he is much closer.

 

I am not going to be deterred asking about price. Price is a factor as indicated by how many people are willing to travel thousands of miles to get surgery done. I met a gal once who traveled to Brazil for gastric bypass. I worked in Costa Rica and Americans would travel there for dental procedures.

 

However, if asking about price is taboo. . . or people are embarrassed or whatever to share that information, let me know. I am NOT a mind reader and cannot tell if someone read my post or not in regards to me asking about price. Simply reply, "I am not comfortable answering that."

 

If I may suggest, this forum perhaps should have a price range section for doctors they recommend per FUE, FUT, etc. . .

Dr. Diep is within the $7-8 range, it may be lower if you need a lot of grafts and choose FUT. But he's definitely a business man, he's not performing surgeries out of the goodness of his heart, but his results are really good and that's what matters, like others have said get a consult online it's free, that's the only way you'll know how much it's gonna cost you.

Thank you guys for the responses. What I wonder is if I continue taking fin, will side effects regress, the body gets used to the med? Or will my depression continue the same and even worse become permanent. Depending on your recommendation I will either immidiately stop using it or try it some more time.

Lower the dose, how many mg are you taking daily? If it's 1mg try 0.5, sometimes lowering the dose will do the trick, if it continues though I'd recommend coming off.

Again i see KO is beating the "get on fin or you are doomed" drum. I'm wondering if he works for Merck every response he has involves get on FIN

You're not the only who's wondered that lol, did you get your HT yet?

So far I've be the only person that presented documented cases in video and photo, the recipient area will not look odd so long as you shave with a razor as shown in joe rogan who had strip, if you're going to refute a photo at least provide another photo to back your claim.

So I guess to assert that you must be able to define a 'bad' scar and know/have an opinion on the percentages of which occurr from each type of procedure. Genuinely curious on what basis you make that claim. i.e your hunch from looking at internet forums, conversations with doctors, some objective evidence/medical literature etc.

 

As for posting a picture of a 'bad' scar, I didn't do that because, if I recall correctly, the OP asked about what shaving to the bone would look like for him, and I have no more idea than the bees. I'm not sure if anyone can objectively give any evidence to back up the odds of it being good or bad - however that is defined.

My assertion is made on individuals I have personally met who've had FUE and individuals I've met who've had FUT, I'm not saying this is a scientific fact just my own observation, if you read his post he didn't say what his head would look like shaven to the bone, I'm pretty sure the only way he'd know that is if he shaved his head himself, he asked if anybody has pictures of someone who had FUE around the amount of grafts he had shaven to the bone. His original question:

"Anyway

I m trying to find a pitcure for shaved head after fue (shave to the bone) in receipient area or donor area i could nnit find any normal picture on the net. Does anyone try it so far ? espically with the new advanced fue technique not the scarry old fue"

I posted the only documented case I know with the same amount of grafts op has roughly, now if the purpose of your original posts where you copied and pasted what two surgeons state about FUE was to somehow explain that not every individual scars the same and some individuals will scar worse than the example shown, I think it would be relevant to post a picture, I'm seriously confused as to what the purpose of your posts are I fail to see the point you're trying to make, if it was to say that not all scars look the same, then fair enough can you provide examples? I don't think it makes sense to make a statement like that without providing some examples of what you're referring to. If that's not your point than I really don't know I'm :confused:

No its not, even if you have a lot of hair loss, there is more you can lose. Some people might be happy to take that risk, I sure am. Plus the risk of impotence is quite low.

 

You may think the risk is not worth it, but it isn't about what you think. It may be your opinion but it is not everybody else's.

 

If you're facing aggressive hair loss, and you get an HT without fin, that hair is going to look weird when your native hair falls out.

I'm pretty sure the purpose of this thread was to get opinions, as someone who's Norwood 6 and has had a hair transplant I think I'm qualified in giving my opinion, not sure what makes you more qualified have you had a hair transplant? The only hairloss that really matters is Norwood 2-4 that's the range that's still salvageable and worth saving, above that you're bald, it is not wise to risk your sexual health for a minuscule amount of hair. This is my advice as someone who's Norwood 6 and has had a hair transplant, at Norwood 6 you don't have to get on propecia as long as you plan your hair transplant wisely and you have realistic expectations. Plus minoxidil works quite well.