Melvin- Admin

A juvenile and disrespectful comment as expected. You don't even know how he performs his FUE and it's not even a large case so fatigue doesn't even come into play. Why don't you call up Dr Beehner and advise him how to improve his technique? (Notice he's using the SAFE system, as does Dr Bhatti who's patients have presented a few mediocre results lately. Yield so bad they have large patches of bald scalp.)

 

In the link above we have 2 Coalition doctors (Bernstein and Beehner), with a combined experience of over 50 years who are concerned enough about FUE/FUT growth differences to be bothered to: a)Carry out a study or b)Look at ways FUE growth rates can be improved.

 

If FUE grows the same as FUT then why on earth would they bother? They all attend the ISHRS conferences and other seminars so why not pinch Dr 'X's technique and be done with it?

 

Readers, please don't fall for reps, internet gurus, or doctors claiming FUE has the same yield. The best they can get is something very close to FUT if you're willing to take an additional risk. It's up to you if that's a risk you're willing to take versus having a strip scar.

Maybe it was a bit disrespectful I apologize to the doctor if I hurt his feelings but the truth is the truth, the only thing a study performed by one (1) surgeon proves is how good that surgeon is at both procedures.

Nobody said FUE grows the same as FUT on a *consistent basis key word there, a nearly 50% difference that's ridiculous and you know it, if FUE yields were so poor why would respected FUT surgeons like Shapiro have any interest in performing the procedure? Why would he attend FUE seminars hosted by Dr. Lorenzo and Erdogan? No disrespect to beehner or Bernstein, they were pioneers in their time with FUT but experience does not equate to skill, correct me if I'm wrong but Bernstein uses robotic FUE that should tell you everything.

(Link removed by moderator)

I believe what Dr. Shapiro says to be more reflective of FUE results today, in just the past 10 years the procedure has grown from 500 grafts to 5,000 grafts, would this be the case if yield was nearly 50% less than FUT? I don't think so. Notice he says a good "FUE transplanter" should be able to get *close to the same yield at least 80% of the time, a surgeon who only performs FUE in to strip scars etc. I don't think could be considered an FUE specialist or a good "FUE transplanter."

I guess the important thing for me to know... Is there a chance I become a 7, or is my pattern basically set? I want to do a conservative HT, know I need fut to cover large areas, am fine with a not aggressive hairline, understand that I need at least 2 procedures and it will cost me at least 40k from one of the top doctors..... But, is this all for nothing, am I a 6 or a 7, and will I have the donor....... I'm pretty frightened right now!

manderson that is the million dollar question, I think from looking at your pictures, your norwood 6 pattern is clear, but a miniaturization test of the donor area is your best bet. From what i've read most men who are destined to be norwood 6 or 7 can see the pattern by the age of 30, so I think if you were to be norwood 7 you'd be able to see a pattern that shows miniaturization in a norwood 7 pattern. Of course there is no guarantee, and I don't think any doctor can or will guarantee you anything. It's a gamble I took and so far ill be turning 31 and my pattern hasn't changed since I first noticed it at 28. That's why I think it's best to be conservative right now, use the grafts only necessary to address your current hair loss, and save your donor hair in case you may need more transplant down the line, that way you'll have a clearer understanding of how or where you need to transplant grafts. Like I said, I wouildn't use more than 4-5,000 grafts right now. Try and maintain your hair with lipogaine and some form of Ketocanozole shampoo, incorporate microneedling (dermaroller) as well. It should be noted also that the norwood chart, is not a progression chart, it is basically a chart in which you fit in with your pattern according to Dr. Rassman.

Dr. Rassman quoute "

"We can try to make an intelligent guess with miniaturization studies and our clinical medical experience, but it is not a science and there are no guarantees in predicting hair loss. Generally, the worst balding patterns hit men before they are 30 years old and I find that most balding patterns can be predicted by ages 26-30 based upon early signs of thinning evidenced by miniaturization studies. On occasion I have seen men start balding in their 40s and 50s, although very rare.

Summary:

 

Based on this study of 1780 FU grafts in 4 patients, a projection can be made that:

 

11% of all FUT grafts will fail

43% of all FUE grafts will fail

 

I will gladly accept these numbers as true when pigs fly.

Remember this failure is based off one surgeon, and please keep in mind this one surgeon does not perform FUE regularly.

So in my opinion this study is useless sorry, but think of it this way, what if I created a "study" stating that by keeping my feet together I'm able to consistently make free throws in basketball, but while keeping my feet apart my consistency drops to about 50%. Does my own experience hold any sort of bearing over someone else's experience? Absolutely not, that study only shows how poor the doctor is at performing FUE sorry it's the truth.

In order for the study to be credible, you'll have to take identical twin patients with hairloss, have one FUT Doctor perform the surgery with a set amount of grafts, then the other patient have the surgery performed by an FUE surgeon with the same amount of grafts, this should occur with at least 10 set of identical twins with 10 FUT doctors and 10 FUE doctors, this will allow us to get a clearer understanding and have a larger pool to review.

Will this ever occur? No I don't think so, let's assume the difference is 10% and the visual difference is barely noticeable, then FUT physicians who are poor at performing FUE will lose business.

Here's another analogy for that study, it's like arm wrestling yourself with your right and left arm and coming up with the conclusion that all right arms are stronger than left arms lol.

Hi HTsoon.

 

I had no knowledge of Paleo's thread before posting my thread. I can't fully recall but I think the majority of my extractions were done by the techs, but the implantation was done almost entirely by Dr Doganay (UPDATE: thinking back, I'd say it was 90% Doganay implantation, about 40% Doganay extraction).

 

However, I had to advocate for this to happen, and the original message I received (via WhatsApp, when I raised this the day before my operation) was 'Dr Hakan will create your hair line as you requested. After this his assistant will be involved the implantation [sic]. They will be finished together'.

 

I insisted that Dr Doganay do the implantation, and referenced the wording on his website, specifically the 'Dr Doganay places all the grafts himself' line. My operation the next day was then delayed for a few hours, but my requested *was* followed through - as I said, about 90% of the operation. I would advise anyone interested in booking with this surgeon to insist on this, as I did.

 

Overall, I had a much better experience than Paleo. Unlike his post, my donor capacity was evaluated, and the techs didn't drop anything or swear. Also, my recipient area looks fine these days.

 

All I can really talk about is own my experience and whether or not I can fully recommend Dr Doganay will depend on how things look in a few months, but thus far the result has been promising for me.

90% implantation with the Choi implanter is unacceptable, I'm happy for you.

In this video it's stated that he does the implantation himself and the nurses just help him out the hair in the pen, how this changed I don't know but it should revert back. All in all I don't trust technicians creating the recipient sites for my head not even if they did it for only 3% of the operation.

Transection can occur at the upper half or lower half of the follicle, also in follicular units there could be 2 transacted follicles with one intact follicle.

Here's another older study that highlights the differences in growth beetween follicles transected from the upper half horizontally and lower half horizontally, is there any particular reason this is of interest to you? Just curious

http://www.talizi.ge/files/publication/viability_eng.pdf

You guys have no idea how lucky you are to only have to go through the ugly duckling stage for a few months. I've been in it since 1989. I keep having another hair transplant hoping something will finally grow and cover all the scars, thinness, and fake pluggy look. I'm 1.5 months past my 27th hair transplant and have the redness and hair fallout in the area where the grafts were placed going on now.... yet again.

Wow read your story and it's quite compelling, ugh when I saw the picture of you in the doctors chair almost Norwood 6 at the age of 22 my heart sank. Man I really hope you can get your hair sorted out at least the scars, have you considered Dr. Umar? He's dealt with cases worse than yours, I wish you the best man you deserve a good result. I think bio lizard will begin to appreciate his own situation and realize that "ugly duckling" phase is literally nothing in comparison.

Dr. Umar repairs take a look

Pictures can be deceiving, I think the best thing you can do is set up a consult with a good doctor in your area and have him/her look at your donor density and measure it, they can also check for minituarization, this is the best way to go about things, my donor was like yours and I've done 4,000 grafts thus far and it looks thinner yes, but not terrible this is what it looks like at a 1 guard.

Transected follicles will sometimes grow back in the donor area, this is how these supposed "donor regeneration" clinics work, they transect follicles and split hairs, but this does not always occur and I think more often than not the follicle is lost, but to answer your question yes transacted follicles can regrow in the donor area.

Thanks man. Very helpful info - and kind of relieving. It doesn't feel great handling this stuff (on my own), and having people share their experience helps a lot.

 

I know I have some native/thin hair still there, but rogaine will only maintain it for a limited amount of time right? (Based on what i read)

 

Having a thin crown is fine....I think that a few thousand grafts, along with SMP for contrast, and maybe 2k of beard or body hairs should probably take care of it? I mean, if youre suggesting the frontal 2 zones with a bigger procedure, maybe I can leave the crown sparse and do a larger FUT procedure, and wait 8 months and do a body beard several thousand crown transplant? and then maybe one more down the road combined with SMP, I should be "OK" and appear to not experince much hair loss, just thin hair?

 

Think thats an ok plan?

Well minoxidil just like propecia will only maintain hair I wouldn't say a limited amount of time, but yes it won't maintain it forever, both meds don't cure Balding, but either way it's best to use it because the less hair you transplant now the better.

Id say the crown right now would be good with 1,500 grafts, body hair I'm considering transplanting the donor area, my goal whilst may not be possible I still have to consult some docs, is to thin my donor area transplanting as much hair possible to the scalp,then once it's completely thinned out, transplanting some body hair to the donor area, whilst using smp, I wear my hair short on the sides so the difference between native and body hair wouldn't be visible. But since you're doing FUT I think it's best to use body hair for the strip scar. Other than that I think it's a good long term plan you have, seeing as your expectations are realistic, I don't see a problem wth getting a procedure done now, consult with H&W and others like rahal, shapiro etc.

HTsoon thanks for the input. BTW i looked at your story, do you think we have similar patterns? The timeline feels pretty similar, in terms of age and progession, I had a similar experience with propecia, which sucked.

 

Your results look great....if i could get those results, i would be pretty happy. You arent slick bald yet with your native hair though are you? How different will it look when you are?

 

The truth is, ive looked at thousands of pictures, and have read a million different posts, and i still have no idea what i would look like with a transplant, whether its 2k or 6k grafts. I feel like if i use the max, somethine like 8-10 k grafts to cover the areas i have now, add some smp for contrast, and have a bank of beard hair (at least 2 k grafts, very ample hair). Am i reaching? Has this been done?

 

Can people tell your hair is "off"? Does the illusion change in water, will my gf be able to tell? I don't think i care about any of this,I just want to know - I have no magic expectations, I just want to look normal, and like a young guy, because I am one.

Yea I'd say we're pretty similar I had about the same amount of hair at 27, that was the year my hair really started to get bad. I'm sure you're feeling the same way at this point. I'm not slick bald yet, I'm not sure how different it will look, I stay on minoxidil and nizoral shampoo it's maintained the native hair I had quite well i recommend doing the same for yourself, it's a shame about propecia but it's ok you an still have surgery just need to plan well.

I think less is more with diffuse thinners like you and me, my first surgery was only 1,850 grafts and it made a difference, second surgery was 2,120 grafts I'm only 4 months post op, the difference it's making is huge, my third surgery I'm planning will be next year to address the lateral humps and sparse coverage for the crown.

Just so you know hair transplants are not miracles, yes the density will appear different with water in your hair or under strong lighting, people can't tell I've had anything done though, I've been lucky my surgeon is good at hairlines it looks pretty natural. My gf knew I've had both procedures, it's best to have full disclosure with your significant other, it's noticeable for the first two weeks of surgery. So unless you can wear a hat at work I recommend getting at least 2 weeks off of work.

You'll look young, except the crown will have to be sparse, because of your age and extensive hairloss, the crown will likely be skin bald in the future, the necessary grafts to cover such an area is high, there's no use in using up grafts for the crown, frame the face, address the lateral humps, lightly dust the crown, that way you'll have an acceptable look now and I'm the future as well. FYI you have more hair than me, I've only had 4,000 grafts, if you'd be happy with my result, there's absolutely no need to get more than 5'000 grafts right now, plus your hair to skin contrast is better than mine, I have medium light skin with dark hair, the contrast is not good so I need more hair for it to look as good as someone with light hair light skin or dark hair dark skin.

Sam every month you make the same thread, and every month you get the same advice, I saw your pictures and I think you have really good growth for only 4 months, obviously it may look sparse and unnatural right now, there is still a lot of growth to come and the hairs still need to mature. If at 12 months you still feel the same, get the grafts removed shave your head and forgot about your hairloss. There's no use in trying to judge your results at 4 months.

Htsoon- do you think that I have enough donor hairs to get coverage? Assuming money not being an issue, and I've seen mega sessions done by H + W, could I get 6-7000 grafts, and build from the front to the back, and then use a combination of SMP and FUE to get coverage in the crown?

 

Why not have SMP prior? Only within the current hair line at least? Would is mess up the surgery potentially?

 

 

David- thank you! It's great to be here!

 

I know I won't have a very low hairline, all I'm looking for is coverage and I'm comfortable with multiple procedures... Do you think I have enough donor on the sides etc to achieve 10k grafts over two fut's? Should I only do fue and go with the buzzed look and fill in with smp? It's something I want - you're right, I've been shaving for a great deal of time, but really feel like it's been hurting me and not helping....

 

Could I just ask the doctors to assume that my pattern has gone slick bald, and to build backwards from their over two mega procedures?

It's hard to tell how good your donor is just from pictures, you'd have to schedule a one on one consult with a surgeon so they could measure your density, on average most men have 6-7k lifetime grafts, I don't think I'd do more than 5,000 in your case, although you have a clear Norwood 6 pattern, you still have quite a bit of native hair, what I would do, is stay conservative now, 4-5000 grafts would make a huge difference especially in the front 2/3rds of your scalp, I would lightly dust the crown with some grafts just enough so that the transition from front to back is not abrupt. SMP should be done once you're done with all surgeries, because you want the surgeon to be able to clearly see what the balding area is. Also, are you on minoxidil or fin? I recommend getting on some form of hairloss med prior to surgery to help with shock loss.

Yes you're headed to Norwood 6 especially since you're 27, H&W are quality docs you'll get a good result, looks like you have some nape thinning (retro alopecia) common with high norwoods you'll have to use your grafts wisely, build the front leave the crown sparse, I don't recommend getting SMP until after you've finished your HT procedures, you'll more than likely need more than one procedure.

The donor area looks way better, doesn't look moth eaten at all, I'm sure if you cut it short again you'll see that it's thinner, I think that goes for anyone who's gotten FUE, but at least it looks better than the pictures you posted before.

Recipient area still looks sparse though, hoping more growth occurs in the next 7 months, still only 5 months do you shouldn't throw in the towel just yet.

We're all guilty of this, i'm 4 months post op, while ive seen definite growth, it's still quite thin, and very see through in certain harsh lights, I find myself also questioning whether the procedure will be a success, don't compare yourself to others cause as others have said we all grow differently, from my first procedure, growth appeared at 4 months, at 6 months growth was there but not maturity, by 10 months, the grafts were pretty much matured and slight changes occurred from 10-18 months but nothing substantial.

Quit rounding up too, I've noticed a lot of guys have rounded up their post op time, for example if your surgery was in mid august, you can't say you're at 3.5-4 months that's only 3 months, you sell yourself short doing that and make it seem like you're not growing at a normal rate.

Paleo, now that its been a month since you created this thread, can you post some updated pics, id like to see how things are coming along now that it's been 5 months, also can you show the donor area.

Speedboatchase,

 

That is very helpful. I will be emailing them over the weekend. I too will be turning 30 in January and need to end this hair loss of mine! You results really do look fantastic the more i look at them. I am excited for you and can't wait to share my results on here as well.

 

I like the fact that his work is very aggresive and not conservative. I hope they have slots for January.

All i'm gonna say is research this forum dude, a lot of negative results and according to Bill the doctor is on a probationary status, techs do 100% extractions and they create the incisions with the choi implanter pen as well. I'm also 30 and I can understand not wanting to be conservative but don't rush in to to any surgeries, a lot of these threads were randomly created after Paleo's thread makes me wonder.

I know I know I know. ......You guys all make super solid points. And points I need to reread from time to time.

 

I realize my personality and natural temperament are really NOT well suited for what in going through.

You guys are all probably right. It seems I try and keep calm and keep calm, maintain....but beneath the surface my insecurities and uncertainties are seething and boiling. Until I just hit these manic freak out 'doomsday' episodes.

 

I do apologize for tying up forum threads with what I'm certain is perceived as (justifably so) my whining, but mentally I am struggling with this process. I have no one to turn to that can even come close to relating to what I'm going through. I do not personally know of anyone that has had a HT.

 

I promise I'm not a bad guy, just struggling with insecurity and body image issue.

 

Here is a recent pic for those who asked.

I've reviewed your picture, definitely not folliculitis like I suspected, honestly I don't see anything wrong, the redness might be irritation from continuing to buzz your head with clippers, I recommend just letting your hair grow, I see growth beginning already, nothing to be worried about, far from the disfigured monster you described.

Interesting, I agree if there's a complication the doctor should be immediately notified, however, not sure if he was in the middle of surgery, I'm sure the other patient would feel bad if he just stopped mid surgery to leave for an undisclosed time, that's why I think one surgery a day is best, but with popularity not sure if this is possible. You have valid criticisms and I think the clinic could benefit from improving in these constructive criticisms, as someone who's interested in having a procedure with Dr. Bhatti, I think potential patients benefit from the doctor improving in these aspects.

However, I agree with Dr. Bhattis assessment of the hairline, rounder the face the more straight the hairline, narrower the face the more arched the hairline, it's just more of what looks better aesthetically. But at the end of the day you should get the hairline you want.

I've found Dr. Bhatti has conducted himself in a proper way on this forum, and from your assessment of him it seems to back up my feelings on him that he's a genuine Doctor, I hope you have good growth cheers.

Biolizard can you post a pic? Maybe it's folliculitis that can be treated with antibiotic ointment. Generally by 3.5 months you should start seeing hairs sprout out. I'm also 4 months post op, my hair still looks really thin under certain light. Who was your surgeon? I think growing your hair out will definitely help, at this point just let it grow quit cutting your hair, as the hairs thicken you'll forget about it hang in there man, this is the hardest time, you're still unsure if it's a failure, but trust me 4 months is way too early.

Pretty aggressive hairline for someone in their late 20's, with that being said, I don't think he'll be really bald even as he gets older, the majority of guys destined for Norwood 6 usually see the pattern by their late 20's. But the future is never certain, will he regret getting a Pre-pubescent hairline only time will tell. Enjoy it while he can that's what I say.

Dr. Bloxham,

 

Thanks for your reply. I understand what you, Blah1982 and other posters are saying...getting a HT involves some risk, or the possibility of more HTs in the future. Although, if I react well to propecia and I stay on it, this risk could be eliminated. Do you agree?

 

Also, what do you mean by preserving the donor, and why would that require the FUT route. I would plan on FUE.

The theory is that you can get as many FUT or strip surgeries as possible whilst maintaining the surrounding hair virgin, in other words untouched so the you could FUE and get additional grafts, whilst this is fine in theory not really always the case, a lot of variables come in to play like skin elasticity, scarring physiology, 4,000 grafts extracted via FUT are gone forever regardless, in my opinion you'd be crazy to go FUT especially now, the probability of you balding significantly is high, so if you have surgery at 30 you may decide to want to shave it all off, well with every strip surgery you have you take the risk of your scar stretching significantly.

Now just so you know there is no surgery that is scarless, I'm sure Dr. Bloxham will repeat this 9 times, so just wanted to let you know, FUE will leave thousands of little dot scars on your scalp, but here's the thing, you are fair skinned with light hair, the absolute best scarring for FUE are with individuals with fair skin and light hair, why? Because the white dot contrast is not as obvious due to your skin already being fair, there's plenty of examples on this forum of fair skinned guys like sethticles who've gotten 4K+ FUE shaved down and the scars are barely visible. Also, I don't advocate doing FUE+FUT cause you run the risk of thinning the donor area and making the scar visible, that's just me though, if you don't care about scars doing that will probably give you the most grafts.

This is the first patient I've seen with substantial hairloss from feller and bloxham, Norwood 6 possibly Norwood 7 in the future, I'm eager to see his results, keep us posted on the progress.