britboy

I'm hoping a moderator will remove the verrelent and abusive attacks on me by pup and. Chrisdav

Very well written and in agreement. There are plenty of patients from the surgeon on here who are no trouble.

You are another gang member agreeing with absolutely distorted facts. How dare you include me in your trollific Slurs....

1966kph and britboy,

 

You two are behaving exactly like the people that got your clinic banned here in the first place. Your continued efforts to circumvent the ban, and your ceaseless spamming of threads with complaints of “harassment” and “censorship” and accusations of conspiracies and hidden agendas only reinforce the correctness of the publishers’ difficult decision to impose the ban. It appears that anyone and everyone associated with this clinic are simply unable or unwilling to abide by the rules of this forum.

 

Blake has told you repeatedly that the decision is final. Live with it, or move on. Or at least spare the rest of us your harping, and confine your complaints to private messages with the moderators. I can almost guarantee you will find a more receptive audience that way than if you continue down this path of discord. You might not get what you want, but at least you won’t alienate the rest of the members and end up getting yourselves banned as well.

 

If I were a patient of this clinic and wanted to post about it on privately run ht forums, I would first urge the physician owner-operator of the clinic to clean up his act, starting with eliminating from his web site all deception and obfuscation about who actually performs the clinic’s hair restoration surgeries. Unfortunately, he appears to have taken the opposite track. He just launched a retooled web site that is even more deceptive in this regard than the previous one, if that is possible.

 

One can hardly expect privately run hair restoration forums like this one to host threads directly or indirectly promoting a clinic with such demonstrated blatant disregard for truthful marketing of its services. If I were the publisher of a hair restoration forum, I would not even consider allowing posts mentioning this doctor or clinic so long as the deceptive marketing practices continued.

 

You say you want all the information out there so ht patients can make their own choices and informed decisions. Well, charity begins at home, as the proverb goes. You would be doing your clinic a service, and you would be doing patients who you think could benefit from this clinic a service, if you could persuade your doctor to come clean on his web site about his business model and stop stating and implying that he or other surgeons perform the clinic's hair restoration surgeries.

 

Please don’t take this post or others as ill wishes for your hair restorations. I hope both of you end up with gorgeous heads of hair that will bring you confidence and joy for the rest of your lives. In this respect, we are all in this together.

 

Good luck!

Ceaseless spamming and circumvention....I sense more attacks .. now you're starting on me... You are now taking advantage of the situation but please leave me out of it. I have and always writen honestly unlike YOU in particular.... I'm a Real patient and share and wish to continue to share my experienced. My experiences are as valid if not more valid than yours especially having been and still am a client of the klinik in question. I request you retract and appologise to me for your insinuation that I am spamming....I'm no spammer... I now see the twisted and distorted gang have risen their heads above the pulpit. You are rude.

http://www.hairrestorationnetwork.com/eve/search.php?searchid=1555982

Read through it please it and again this is clearly attacking said clinic this is undeniable or so I think any way.

Enough of this petty squabbling.

Blake do you think the price of fue is rising or falling? What about in the US ?

Do you think the competitors abroad with their lower prices will force the US fue practicioners to lower their prices?

I believe it will otherwise their custom is going to seriously start drying up.

Have a good evening.

The link appears to has been removed by moderators - I wonder why !!! It is clear there is a campaign against the so called offending klinik, so people just be aware that the klinik in question, the klinik that performed my FUE, is genuine and of the highest calibre and ethics when it comes to FUE and 3-4 times cheaper than any in USA or even Europe for that matter.

The International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery’s website posted a position statement on scalp surgery and a paper that presents a fair and balanced view on the topic of FUE versus donor strip harvesting. I found it very informative so I thought I would share it. I am not advocating one method over the other, I just think it is important to have all the information possible in order to make an informed decision.

 

The following is the official position of the ISHRS

 

August 2010 – Comparison between Strip Harvesting and Follicular Unit Extraction:

A Fair and Balanced View

ISHRS Position Statement on Qualifications for Scalp Surgery

 

Ten years ago the use of follicular unit extraction (FUE) was advocated as an alternative to traditional strip harvesting of the donor tissue. The use of the technique has been slow to be accepted as a new standard. Many physicians have, in fact, tried the technique but with markedly varying success. The recent promotion of mechanical devices and powered follicular extraction devices has sparked renewed interest and controversy regarding this method of harvesting. A great deal of discussion by physicians, ancillary personnel, and the general public has occurred on the Internet and multiple media sources about the value of FUE versus strip harvesting and vice versa. Sadly, many of the claims of “superiority” of the newer technique seem more related to marketing and self-promotion rather than a clear scientific evaluation.

 

This article discusses advantages and disadvantages of both techniques to provide a more accurate and balanced view of the two approaches.

 

The Donor Area and Scar Formation

Strip harvesting produces a linear scar. The appearance of the donor strip scar can be a significant concern for patients who wish to wear their hair very short. The vast majority of patients who undergo strip harvesting have minimal scars that are easily concealed by the hair above the scar. And in many instances the scar may not be evident at all except on careful inspection. There are, however, some patients who have scars that have widened, and there are also patients who have several scars from multiple procedures. In some instances the apparent widened appearance of a scar may actually be due to damage to follicles along the incision line during harvesting rather than true scarring.

Judicious planning on the part of the surgeon can largely diminish the problems associated with strip scars. By limiting the width of the strip to be taken and avoiding tension on the wound, the surgeon can minimize the donor scar. To avoid multiple scars many physicians who use strip harvesting employ a single scar technique even if multiple procedures are performed. By utilizing careful dissection along the incision line, damage to hair follicles can be diminished.

The use of the trichophytic method of closure for strip harvesting can also be extremely helpful in improving the appearance of the strip harvest scar. As noted above closing under minimal or no tension can help to avoid the widening of a scar. This allows hair to camouflage the scar and the hair growing through the scar can limit the stretching. Avoiding damage to the hair follicles along the incision lines is crucial in preventing the appearance of a prominent scar.

Some physicians advocate the use of a layered closure and undermining as techniques to minimize scars. Other surgeons feel that undermining and layered closures do not seem to alter the healing except in situations where tension is a problem.

There are patients such as those with Ehlers Danlos syndrome, who because of alterations in collagen deposition, are prone to widened scars and poor wound healing. There is little that can be done to prevent such scars in these patients. The circular scars produced by FUE may suffer the same fate and be stretched in these patients.

The primary rationale for the use of FUE is that a linear scar is avoided. Several proponents of FUE market the procedure as a technique that does not involve cutting, is less invasive and does not result in scars (i.e., “scarless”). While a linear scar is not created with FUE, circular scars are created. The length of incision is greater with FUE than with strip harvesting. This is apparent when one calculates the circumference of a 1mm punch (1mm x pi = 3.14) and then multiplies this by the number of grafts, for instance, 1000 grafts (1000?3.14 =3140mm which equals 31.4cm). In comparison, a strip harvest of 1000 grafts assuming an average density of 80 FUs per sq cm and a 1cm strip width the length of the scar created would be 12.5cm (1000/80 = 12.5).

“Cutting” is clearly involved when using a punch. Although a linear scar is not produced with FUE, scars are created and evidenced by virtue of the fact that hypopigmented or hyperpigmented “dots” may be visible when the hair is cut very short. These “dots” may be a scar reaction or actual post inflammatory pigment changes, particularly in darker skinned individuals. Also the human eye may pick up “spaces” where follicular units are missing in the normal pattern.

The depth of the incisions with FUE is usually shallower as compared to strip harvesting. The punch depth is to the level of the fat or at the fat-dermis junction. With strip harvesting the depth of incision is into the fat. Some physicians cut to the deeper fat or just above the fascia.

When using FUE it is important to recognize that as more and more grafts are harvested the area may appear moth eaten. If grafts are taken too close together there may be an appearance of a scar. In some patients as large numbers of grafts are removed there can be a clear demarcation between the areas that have been harvested and areas left alone. This is opposed to the strip technique where hair of similar density is brought back together at the suture line. Opponents of strip harvesting would note that if hair does not grow well in a strip scar and the scar widens, then the scar might be apparent if the hair above it is short or otherwise thin.

Some promoters of FUE have stated that nerves and veins are not cut. This claim is untrue. By entering the skin with the punch arteries, veins and nerves are cut. It is important to point out that with FUE the patient’s hair usually must be trimmed quite short for harvesting. This is the case especially when large numbers of grafts are required. A way to avoid trimming all of the donor hair is to set up rows of short hair between rows of long hair. The short hair grafts can be harvested within the existing long hair. But again, this is only suitable when relatively small numbers of grafts are needed.

Graft Survival

Debate exists as to the rate of survival regarding FUE versus strip grafts. There is some concern that because the FUE grafts may have very little tissue surrounding them that they are less likely to survive. Such grafts are more prone to dehydration, which has been shown to be a major cause of diminished graft survival. The lack of perifollicular tissue is often a result of “pulling” on the graft to remove it. Because there is added manipulation in trying to remove a graft this may also contribute to diminished survival. Sometimes the ends of the bulbs are splayed or unusually far apart. This makes the bulbs more susceptible to trauma, as a result of increased graft manipulation during implantation. As of this time there are not adequate studies to compare survival rates. Clearly there are patients who have undergone the FUE procedure and have excellent results. Some physicians might argue that less successful results may be due to technical surgical skill rather than the nature of the more fragile graft created with FUE.

With FUE there is a greater chance of transection of hairs as compared to strip harvesting and this could result in poor growth or lack of growth depending on the level of transection. The rates of transection seem to vary widely with FUE. Conversely, with strip harvesting, grafts may be damaged in making the initial skin incisions and subsequent dissection of the tissue, but this is considered minimal. The use of the microscope for dissection of the donor strip should limit transection rates to 1-2%. Grafts created with strip harvesting generally have a greater amount of surrounding tissue and fat. This may decrease the chance of dehydration and allow for greater leeway in manipulation of the grafts during placing and hence, better graft survival.

Placing of Grafts

When manual placement of grafts is utilized there is no difference in regard to the technique of placement of strip harvested or FUE harvested grafts. There may be some concern about the fragility of the FUE grafts and the fact that they may be more susceptible to drying and over manipulation.

When a machine that uses pneumatic pressure is used it is the contention of the manufacturer/distributor that the machine places the graft with less manipulation. Some surgeons who have used the machine have indicated that the graft placing capability of the machine is limited at times and not always reliable.

Perfectly harvested grafts may be damaged during the placement phase and fail to grow. Trauma and graft drying are well known factors that may occur in inexperienced hands and will effect graft survival. Regardless of how grafts are harvested, there is a considerable amount of artistry and technical expertise necessary to place them to produce an excellent or even acceptable result. The surgeon must be able to create an aesthetic “blueprint” for graft placement, determining the distribution of 1, 2, and 3 hair grafts. Hairline design is obviously important, as is the grafting plan over the rest of the scalp. The experienced hair surgeon will create gradients of density to achieve natural looking results with adequate density. In addition, the incisions must be made at the proper angle and direction. Even single hair grafts will look unnatural if placed at the wrong angle.

Technical Expertise

A somewhat different skill set is required for FUE harvesting. The surgeon must be able to align the small punch correctly, find the right depth and adjust the punch to account for changes in direction of the hair. The primary concern with FUE is the rate of transection. That is, if the hairs in a follicular unit are transected they are less likely to grow. This is in part dependent on the level of transection. The reports from physicians performing FUE indicate that the rate of transection is higher than with strip harvesting.

As noted above, the physician must be able to adjust the punch to account for change in hair direction. Patients with curly or very wavy hair may be difficult to treat when FUE is used. In comparison, strip harvesting is suitable for all types of hair. The use of the blunt punch can be helpful in harvesting curly or wavy hair with the FUE technique.

FUE can be a tedious process and both patient and physician may experience fatigue. This can limit the amount of grafts that can be harvested in a single session. Because of the time usually involved in harvesting and the possible strain on the surgeon performing the harvesting one has to wonder if less emphasis is placed on the recipient area.

The learning curve for FUE can be slow for physicians who are used to excisions with scalpels and unaccustomed to the use of punches for harvesting. The physician may need to use high power loupes 4x-6x. Working at a shorter focal distance can be tiresome and lead to neck problems. Some physicians have used ophthalmic microscopes to facilitate the surgery.

An important issue associated with a particular mechanized FUE is the marketing to physicians that unlicensed personnel may be able to perform the harvesting. This raises significant legal issues in many countries, including the U.S. There are states where it is clearly illegal to have a non-physician, non Physician Assistant (PA) or Nurse Practioner (NP) perform such surgery. The laws in other countries may present similar medico legal problems regarding who can harvest tissue. For example, in Austria, Israel, Italy, Korea, Georgia, Thailand, Turkey, and Japan, only physicians are allowed to make incisions, and regulations vary as to the role of assistants in graft insertions. In some countries including the US, entrepreneurial nurses and medical assistants are setting up hair transplant clinics, and hiring physicians as medical directors who may have limited or no hair transplant experience, but who “supervise” the procedure. Many U.S. states allow the physician to delegate responsibilities to staff under supervision, but both the degree of supervision, and the extent of staff responsibilities is not clearly defined.

To date, this issue has not been challenged or reviewed by any state medical board.

 

The following is the position of the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery:

 

ISHRS Position Statement on Qualifications for Scalp Surgery

 

The position of the International Society of Hair Restoration Surgery is that any procedure that involves tissue removal from the scalp or body, by any means, must be performed by a licensed physician in the field of medicine. Physicians who perform hair restoration surgery must possess the education, training, and current competency in the field of hair restoration surgery. It is beyond the scope of practice for non-licensed personnel to perform surgery. Surgical removal of tissue by non-licensed medical personnel may be considered practicing medicine without a license by state, federal or local governing boards of medicine. The Society supports the scope of practice of medicine as defined by a physician’s state, country or local legally governing board of medicine.

 

Number of grafts per session

In general most physicians who perform FUE are not able to do as many grafts in a single session as can be done with strip harvesting. With strip harvesting, sessions of 2000-3000 grafts are very common and some physicians frequently perform sessions in excess of 4000 grafts. There are, however, exceptions and some physicians, routinely performing motorized FUE, report similar in excess of 2000 grafts. Unfortunately, the rates of graft transection in these larger FUE sessions has not been studied or reported.

 

Cost

The cost of FUE is usually significantly more than that for strip harvesting on a per graft basis. The costs may exceed double the price of strip harvesting.

 

Body Hair

FUE can be very useful for harvesting body hair. In such situations the majority of follicular units are single hairs. Evidence of the surgery is often visible as hypo or hyperpigmented “dots” in these non-scalp donor areas.

Small number of grafts

When small numbers of grafts are needed FUE may be an excellent choice of technique. Using the technique where narrow rows of trimmed hair are used it would be relatively easy to camouflage the work and avoid creating a linear scar. On the other hand using a 2.5 cm long and 1.2 cm wide strip a surgeon could easily obtain 240 or so grafts. (2.5 x 1.2 =3.0 sq cm) assuming a density of 80 FU per sq cm (80 x 3 = 240 grafts). Thus, evidence of removal of 240 FUE grafts would be a 2.5cm long scar.

FUE into scars

FUE can be used to try to camouflage linear donor scars. This is considered by many hair restoration surgeons to be another excellent use of the technique. Some surgeons have suggested that a combination of strip harvesting and FUE is the optimal use of the techniques.

 

Instrumentation

The cost of instrumentation for strip harvesting and non-mechanized FUE is modest. With the advent of mechanization the cost for machines that can be used for FUE can be expensive. Powered or motorized devices can cost several thousand dollars and one system currently sells for approximately $80,000 (USD).

With the motorized systems there is debate as to the rate of transection. Some physicians who perform FUE but do not use the motorized systems feel that the rate of transection is higher with such devices. Other surgeons indicate that transection rates are the same or lower. This may depend on the training and skill of the physician performing the work.

 

Increased donor supply

Advocates of FUE have stated that FUE expands the donor area in the scalp. With FUE the surgeon can harvest in the nape of the neck more easily as well as the areas superior and more anterior to the ear. This apparent advantage is somewhat negated because the area can become moth eaten in appearance as more and more graft are obtained. In addition going into the nape of neck area or high onto the scalp can be a problem later in life for the patient as some men lose hair in this area as a result of male pattern hair loss.

 

Complications

Some of the surgeons who prefer FUE feel that patients experience less pain and there is a shorter recovery time. There is little data to support this view. One would need to compare the pain associated with comparable numbers of grafts harvested per session. For instance one would want to compare, for example, 1000 grafts harvested with strip vs. the same number harvested with the FUE technique. The fact that pain is very subjective complicates such studies.

Telogen effluvium can occur in the donor area with FUE or strip harvesting, but this is uncommon. Infection is a very rare complication with hair restoration surgery. Dehiscence with strip harvesting can occur but this is quite rare and would be associated with surgical error. Similarly, necrosis of tissue should not occur unless the area harvested is too wide and/or closed under excessive tension. This could also occur if the arterial supply was already compromised.

Patients may complain of altered sensation but this can occur with strip harvesting or FUE as small nerves are cut in both procedures. Years ago some strip-harvested patients may have experienced significant dysesthesia as a result of damaging the occipital nerves. As dissection should be at the level of the fat or perhaps at the level of the fascia these nerves should not be damaged. Bleeding occurs with both techniques but more significant bleeding occurs with strip harvesting. That said, bleeding is not considered a problem with strip harvesting and in most cases bleeding is nominal.

A complication that is specific to FUE harvesting is the burying of grafts. This happens when the punch pushes the graft into the subcutaneous tissue. The grafts can be difficult to recover and can lead to a foreign body reaction and cyst formation.

Hypertrophic scars and keloids should also be rare with FUE or strip harvesting. If patients have a predilection for keloids making punch excision will not limit such scar formation.

In general hair must be cut short to be harvested with FUE. At times layers can be created allowing hair to cover the harvested areas but this places a limit on the amount of hair that can be removed at the session.

 

Staffing

Strip harvesting requires a larger staff than FUE. For FUE the surgeon can get by with just one or two assistants but if the surgeon has to alter course and use a strip harvest having only one or two assistants could be problematic.

 

Summary

Strip harvesting and FUE are both acceptable techniques for harvesting donor grafts. Each technique has advantages and disadvantages. On a cost-benefit ratio strip harvesting would seem to provide the most cost effective procedure. FUE is well suited for patients who insist on not having a linear scar. It may be an excellent choice for young patients seeking small procedures. FUE may be the ideal choice for harvesting trunk, leg and arm hair, and it is an excellent way to camouflage strip scars.

It is important that objective data continue to be collected regarding graft survival with FUE. Similarly, it would be beneficial to obtain more information as to the degree of discomfort experienced with the two techniques and the healing times.

No matter the technique employed, the surgeon must be well versed in the technical and aesthetic components of performing the surgery in order to produce consistently good results. A single course or training session on one aspect of the hair restoration procedure such as harvesting is inadequate training for a physician to learn how to perform hair restoration procedures. The surgeon must acquire a sense of the aesthetic and technical components of the procedure. He or she must be able to develop a plan for patients with various clinical scenarios and know when to refer to a surgeon with more expertise.

The goal of hair restoration seems simple enough, namely to move hair from one part of the scalp to the other. However, any experienced physician will tell you how complex this seemingly simple task is. For example, one of the most important concepts the physician must appreciate is that hair loss is progressive and that any restoration plan must be made with this in mind. When a patient comes to the physician with a given stage of hair loss, the physician must be able to assess the donor area for hair density and quality, calculate the number of grafts needed, give the patient a reasonable expectation for what the result will be, and plan this result with the possibility of future hair loss in mind. The physician must be able to discuss the pros and cons of medical treatments designed to stop or slow future hair loss, such as oral finasteride and topical minoxidil. All of these elements require considerable training and expertise to implement for each patient.

Successful graft harvesting is only one small component of surgical hair restoration. Without attention to all of the other aspects, there is a very real possibility of a bad outcome. Finally, the incision of skin and tissue, whether using instruments that create a linear or circular incision, is legally considered surgery and should only be performed by a licensed physician with adequate training and expertise in hair restoration.

FUE is much superior than fut and FUT is almost outdated, plus it leave the awful scaring check me post out. A lot of the above is FUT orientated... hmm I wonder why... USA performs mainly FUT and not FUE, Europe and Turkey performs more FUE.

FUE prices in turkey are far far cheaper than FUT in USA, by often as much as 70% cheaper.. there are many great kliniks in Turkey and one or two in europe performing great FUE. I'm sold on FUE after look for 20 + years to resolve the FUT problems I faced... FUE resolved them for me successfully so far...

This is true. I'm very pro-FUE but i cannot say that an equal amount of grafts can be harvested with both methods exclusively. It does depend on the individual. Guys like Dr Lorenzo are pushing what can be achieved via FUE and I certainly believe that FUE should be the first avenue to be considered if one wants to undergo surgical hair restoration, but there are some guys that just don't have the density(but have the laxity) and need alot of grafts. I do believe FUE can treat the majority of cases out there and I do relegate strip to those only with extensive balding, thin donor density and good laxity. Only if the patient cannot be treated via FUE, should strip is looked at. That is my opinion.

My Klinik also does a great job with FUE.. I think they are one of the best

FUE for me, beats FUT with superiority and glee

I hope things get back on track too.

would you allow my friend to post his photos without mentioning the KLINIKS name? in order to begin to get things back on track...

I have to admit the forum saved the day for me...THANK you all 10000000000000000000000 times for the help, I feel great my hair is looking fine err good, I'm happy thankyou all for guiding me to find the Klinik which has transformed my life.. I thank you and God for the support and guidance... but this angst and prejudice against a very sincere and genuine Klinik is unfair. 20_+ years and eventually I discovered the Klinik that gave me hope once again, I feel 20 years younger, proud and confident once again. THANKYOU ALL - A BIG KISS to YOU ALL :eek:

66,

 

I don't think I'm the one ignoring things here. I'm sorry, but we choose facts over feelings when investigating complaints. And I think the community will be ok, but thank you for the concern. I've explained the "delay" to you. And anyone who needs to see continued controversy and disruptive behavior after the rep and duplicate IP address profiles were deleted needs to look no further than this thread itself.

 

We regret the need to censor, but it became necessary for the good of the community and members who come here looking for help, not endless bickering. Our decision is final. I hope I've sufficiently explained why we made this tough decision. I also hope most will understand why we made it.

 

Thanks.

Does this mean that if my friend(s) who may use a surgeon or clinic that if she or he posts from my IP while with me so using the same IP, that they also be banned? "for the good of the community and members who come here looking for help" I came here and found it, and want to pass on the amazing Klinik I found and then introduced my friend who is waiting for results, and many others who found this klinik are now banned from mentioning the kliniks name, but, you say for the good of the community, Blake me darling, it does not add up. forgiveness no matter who is at fault is the better part of valour....you will all feel great if you forgive and allow ----- klinik to become part of this community as you know deep in your heart that the quality of the Kliniks work is as good as any other...if you do this you will be those patients "for the good of the community and members who come here looking for help". Good boy Blake.. reach deep my friend.

Brit,

 

That's the point. We had to do this to uphold our rules and restore order. Any member is allowed to discuss any doctor freely. However, when said clinics break rules and the mere mention of a name causes chaos we have a difficult decision to make. We don't do it often - at all - and we don't take it lightly. This is because we would prefer free discussion. However, we have to intervene when it breaks the rules, creates chaos, and drives members away. HOWEVER, we do so for those reasons alone, and not for any of the less virtuous reasons claimed before.

 

Hopefully this makes sense.

Drives members away !! ??? oooh I doubt it ....Nothing makes sense but its fun.. almost...so ban all the members who caused the affray, I've pm'd several to you.. and these were direct attackers of the said Klinik. but alas as mentioned you wont even allow my friend who had a procedure recently to post his views and photos...This is like the Caucasian Chalk Circle, :-)

66,

 

You'll note that Dr Lorenzo is no longer one of our recommended physicians, but he is being freely discussed. This is because his clinic always followed our very simple rules and discussion about him never resulted in countless battles that detracted from otherwise healthy discussion. Clearly, his FUE practice is successful enough to cause waves and draw envy, but there is no conspiracy to silence him. This is the difference and why we had to make the tough decision.

Then so why ban patients and the ----- klinik from posting?

66,

 

I'm sorry that you don't believe me, but we investigated this member and found nothing. Again, these are the objective facts. All I can do is present them. If you choose to reject these facts, there isn't much more I can say.

Is this "Not for nothing, but last I checked, their clinic continues to lure in patients with deceptive representations on the clinic's web site implying, or stating outright that the patient's FUE transplant will be performed by a renowned ht physician"., not just further proof of the campaign against the kilink ? as mentioned this is inflammatory at the least to suggest they 'LURE' and 'Deceptive' patients in'. This is BS. Anyway I might aswell be talking to my dog for what good this will do to have the HTN alters its position on one of the best kliniks in the world... the klinik which carried out my procedures:-)

Brit,

 

I do kinda refuse to believe people were maliciously attacking the clinic because we followed up on EVERY single one of these complaints and found nothing.

 

And I do wish we could all share openly, but after repeated attempts to allow this open discussion failed, we had no choice but to restore order. We don't want to prevent any member from sharing their experience, but we can't allow this discussion to trample our rules and turn all discussions into battles.

 

We also thought it was a language barrier for quite some time. However, it eventually became abundantly clear that it was not.

really.....! even a blind man or woman could see it, I was drawn into this affray by default because I can actually read English.:-)

Cost of labor, malpractice insurance, and marketing.

endless litigation.....so many surgeons are sued in USA for malpractice, of course there are many bad surgeons even in USA too, probably more than elsewhere as everything is about the Buck in USA.

Blake with the greatest respect, and willingless to try and understand your position, you do yourselves no favours in this forum as you have shown yourselves to be biased in this matter. I believe you would be better served and better serve patients to reconsider my klinik and patients be allowed to post their experiences with this klinik in a transparent way.

Why is it more expensive to own a medical practice in the U.S. than in Europe? I assume that fixed and variable expenses are the same.

Pup as well, Turkey is not part of the EU. So the costs are absolutely less than Europe or USA, this is why the prices are able to be so low. But it does not mean the quality is any lower, in fact I woudl say in todays world, higher quality, back to the very first original issue and the one million disagreements on this forum about my klinik.., Low price high quality unlike anywhere else in Europe or USA.

Personally speaking, I choose not to entrust my health, safety, donor follicles, and cosmetic outcome to physicians ready and willing to exchange their medical ethics for cash by flaunting applicable medical regulatory prohibitions against non-physicians cutting into patients’ skin or otherwise performing surgery.

I would wonder what other shortcuts such a doctor might be taking, other medical regulations he might be violating, and other professional oaths he might be disregarding in order to offer “cheaper” hair restoration.

 

Then again, I do not think of hair transplantation surgery as a commodity, whether the extraction method is FUE or strip. Marketing it as such, where patients are merely consumers of a fungible product and the lowest price carries the day, is not the mindset I want of the doctor and clinic that will perform my hair restoration.

 

Surgical hair restoration is cosmetic surgery requiring, when practiced expertly, a combination of artistry, surgical skill, and medical judgment. I am not buying a pound of sugar. I am retaining the professional services of a surgical artist – one who is ably and appropriately assisted by technicians, nurses, and/or physician’s assistants in accordance with the medical regulations governing him and the locale where he practices.

 

I don’t see the pricing of the “budget” Turkish FUE clinics as a virtue. I see it as an exploitation of an undiscerning market of predominantly younger men wanting a hair transplant on the cheap, by physicians far too eager to sell their medical ethics for a piece of this pie.

 

As for FUE practice in the United States, the U.S. is one of the most expensive places in the world for a physician to privately practice medicine. One would expect to pay more for cosmetic surgery in the U.S. than in other countries, more so if one wants their surgery performed by a top practitioner.

 

I’m not really sure what the debate is, unless it’s to argue that U.S. doctors should follow the lead of some of their Turkish counterparts, flaunt their state’s medical regulations, set up technician FUE mills, and become front men for a clinic operating in the margins of legality or clearly over line.

 

As for britboy's and 1966kph's continued complaints about their clinic (meaning the clinic they went to) having been banned here, theirs is not the only clinic to have suffered this fate. Other surgeons and clinic have been banned for similar, repeated violations of the rules and for other reasons. The most recent I recall was an FUT-only clinic at the time, so you can set aside wild conspiracy theories about the moderators banning your clinic to protect FUT clinics. My understanding is that their clinic was banned for repeated lying and improper promotion, and for chronically disrupting this forum and disparaging its members, moderators, and sponsoring physicians.

 

Not for nothing, but last I checked, their clinic continues to lure in patients with deceptive representations on the clinic's web site implying, or stating outright that the patient's FUE transplant will be performed by a renowned ht physician.

You're part of the fly in the ointment - You absolutely refuse to accept the obvious and proven track record of FUE by not only a certain Klinik but Turkish clinics - Again you're last sentence about luring patients in is inflammatory, "Not for nothing, but last I checked, their clinic continues to lure in patients with deceptive representations on the clinic's web site implying, or stating outright that the patient's FUE transplant will be performed by a renowned ht physician"., despicable and wholly untrue, you although you have the advantage of ----- klinik being banned in part by you're posts and inflammatory posts to boot as this most recent post of yours.

I was lured in by the new promotional American creation....'slit grafts' technique which was a complete disaster... as I'm sure many people are lured in by other proclamations, but the result from this banned Klinik have been exceptional. A disservice is done to the forum by banning this klinik.

66,

 

I'm confused. I explained very clearly to you why there was a "delay" between banning the abrasive rep and deleting the duplicate IP address accounts and actually banning discussion. We wanted to take our time with the decision because banning content is a big deal to us. We went through all the available information with a fine tooth comb and then brought the issue to the site owner who did his own investigation and made a final decision.

 

You say the forum became "calm" in the meantime. Frankly, I disagree - and this discussion further confirms this.

 

When I explained all this to you before, you thanked me for taking the time and said it made sense and you understood?

Hi Blake,

Let me tell you something about the so called abrasive rep... The whole issue here was I believe difficulty with the English language and the interpretation of that language to English speaking people.. there in laid the rub. No respect was shown for the limited English ability and therefore judgement was made, but it was not made against the attackers English speaking or not.

I understand English perfectly, whether or not I made typos is irrelevant,... as I often do..:-) I saw quite clearly that any abrasiveness was due to the limited English language ability in the written form.

Guys,

 

Again, I'm sorry you're frustrated. I always do my best to support patients and clearly you guys don't feel supported. I do apologize for this.

 

However, all I can do is state what factually happened. There was no conspiracy; there were no ulterior motives; there was no physician-led or financial factors behind our actions. In fact, the violations were so blatant and public that I'm really surprised I've had to address this so many times. If you choose not to believe these facts, then I really don't know what else to say.

 

Furthermore, and I've said this publicly as well, we followed up on every member accused of being a "spammer" accused of purposely disparaging the clinic in question or spreading false information, and not a single issue was found. None.

 

Again, I ask that we all remain civil. Thanks.

we patients should still have the right to have our surgeons, clinics doctors spoken about in our posts along with new patients from those same surgeries.

You should re-consider the contribution that ----- Klinik has given to numerous patients including myself and allow them to post, speak plainly and honestly.. You continue to refuse to accept that attackers were against my Klinik.

Brit and 66,

 

I'm sorry you're upset. The decision to ban discussion of a particular physician is not one we take lightly. We never like censoring the forums, so we don't resort to this type of moderation until it is absolutely necessary. We tried to do everything we could to avoid this situation, but, unfortunately, we were left with no other choice. We had to act in the best interest of the majority of our members and uphold the very liberal rules of the community.

 

The entire situation was very public, so I doubt anyone really needs another reminder. However, I will say this: the violations were very clear cut. Even after these were rectified, we still received messages from dozens of members complaining about the ongoing chaos on the boards and asking for order.

 

I can assure you, this decision had nothing to do with some sort of conspiracy by any physician intimidated by the clinic's pricing or practice model (as Brit mentioned before). In fact, because the doctor was never formally considered for recommendation, we never contacted our recommended doctors and asked for input. Not one of the complaints we received came from another doctor.

 

Brit and 66, please understand that we can't have every discussion topic dissolve into a debate about physician versus technician FUE or a discussion of this doctor. Like I said before, this redundancy is one of the reasons why a number of members asked us to step in and do something.

 

I ask you both now to please, remain civil and try and keep discussion focused. I understand that you're upset. I really do. But we don't want this situation to dissolve any further. I'm not trying to stifle or censor, but you will be held accountable for your own behavior.

 

I hope this makes sense. Please feel free to send me a private message with concerns.

Garbage, twisted distorted excuse and untrue response..., More threats I see, its plain, its clear... its almost like a prison camp... Of course I for sure know that the whole intention is to eventually have the whole lot of us who have used the unmentionable ----- klinik banned....of course this woudl suit the moderators and paid for subscriber well to get rid of genuine patients who have had great results and support from the unmentionable ----- klinik.

I am reticent to post any more updates on my procedures, as this forum has become clearly biased and begins not to deserve the contributions of genuine patients....

Any confusion was caused by at least 8 other members and you know who they are and they are still posting, yet the actual klinik who was attacked has been banned from being mentioned etc.....thats the reality. The attacks were based on attempt at totally discrediting technician driven kliniks or Surgeons who do not perform procedures directly, then pricing. These attackers did the best they could and for some weird reason you sided with these attackers and banned the klinik, and now zealously moderating even signatures to eradicate this very good klinik who has patients at the forefront of their work. Why have you not banned those others who clearly attacked this klinik? If you need to know who they are I will send you a PM, but then I have already done that before and you know clearly who they are yet they still post and are mainly negative toward FUE. I wonder why.

I've seen this totalitarian behaviour before in other forums of the past on different themes (not HT), and in Russia, china, North Korea, and USA and now in EU, big bully behaviour and indirect threats which have ultimate consequences of those complaining behind sanctioned unfairly. I'M WAITING FOR MY WARNING OR TO BE BANNED AND NEVER DARKEN THIS FORUMS STEPS AGAIN.

"Brit and 66, please understand that we can't have every discussion topic dissolve into a debate about physician versus technician FUE or a discussion of this doctor. Like I said before, this redundancy is one of the reasons why a number of members asked us to step in and do something".... and you did nothing about the transparent attackers of the klinik in question!

BTW. This is civilized and democratic discussion, its just that you continue to try and silence the offended parties with statements such as " I'm not trying to stifle or censor, but you will be held accountable for your own behavior" That's exactly WHAT YOU ARE doing! I did not see you banning those other members who continued to attack my klinik, in fact this FORUM begins not to even deserve my response. I have no financial gain from this, it is patient led, and should not be manipulated by controllers of the forum. A very unsavory taste is left. These forums have at the heart management promotion not patient to patients clarity, Lucky I found this klinik before they were unfairly banned and patients silenced into submission but, other patients searching for honest reliable and fairly priced kliniks who deserve to know of patients results should be allowed to see them, the patients are the ones you restrict for fair unbiased opinion... It is really a shame as I first thought this was originally an unbiased forum when I first came here seeking desperate help for my condition.

and this brings us to the original post which is why because of pricing ----- Klinik is banned - because they are cheap as chips and as good as the best surgeons in the world.

gemini310's Avatar

gemini310 gemini310 is offline

Junior Member

Join Date: Dec 2009

Posts: 7

Last Online: 04-30-2014 07:25 PM

Default Cost of FUE, increasing or decreasing?

Hi, I was just wondering how much pricing has changed for FUE throughout the years. When I first started doing research for FUE transplants about 7 years ago, I think it was averaging around 3.50-5.00 per follicle. I've recently had consultations with 3 Dr's and its ranged anywhere from 7-10 dollars per follicle. Do you guys see prices going up or down for FUE procedures in the next 5 years? If money is an issue, would it be smart to rush a surgery now, or wait?

My answer to this is, research, there's plenty on here to research and find a well priced 'team' or surgery or surgeon and carefully consider their results and pricing. You are more than welcome to check my thread for the positive experience I had with my new clinic.

Its like being in the Gulag. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag

This is the last I will say on the matter because I have been silenced by the moderators

Amazing, every surgeon and clinic is allowed to be mentioned except ----- Klinik, not even posts from their clients... weird as hell don't you think...? If we mention the name we may be banned, I can only think of one TRUE reason ----- Klinik is banned from being mentioned is because it is a direct threat to all other clinics, surgeons and competition... I have written again to moderators expressing my disgust about this, but I am informed that once again the ----- klinik is not to be mentioned, if this is not a fantastic promotion for the klinik I don't know what is. This Klinik must have everyone runnign scared, and there are two reasons, maybe three, 1. Quality, 2. Price, 3. Throughput of patients, whilst the surgeons performing their own work directly have limited throughput.

Clearly transparency is not here on this forum. I'm damn annoyed... at the covert injustice and unfairness.

Ive just realized my signature has been hi-jacked by the moderators and my kliniks name has been removed... This is DUGUSTING... you cheating moderators

Well well well... Seems like FUT is drowning.......some great scaremongering there Blake..keep it coming...who'd have though it... Giant linear scars are better than FUE... thats without the deep sutures, removal of stitches, the pain, the ever disheartening visual aspect scaring and of old outdated FUT :eek:. the damage caused to donor area and potential grafts while being cut through with a blade the full length of the scare top and bottom. With FUT you can "microscopically dissect them into perfect follicular unit grafts" hahahhahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Im choking... and finish up with dolls hair just like me and still after 3 FUT and corrective surgery by FUT, still remains dolls punching 4,5,6 hairs from one graft, great keep that FUT going, love it..... of course much of this depends upon the surgeon and clinic as with FUE, painless, no meat slicing here....... perfect extraction, perfect transplanting and perfect results if a good clinic is found and used with great technicians led by an excellent surgeon.... and folks, they are out there, you just need to look!

 

I'm sorry but a picture paints a thousand words....If anyone is thinking of HT look at FUE and forget Picasso linear scars created from the artists FUT surgeons.

 

Thank God we don't see Strip IN turkey because FUT is outdated and barbaric at the least, as for cost, Ive experienced a 80% reduction in the cost of my surgeries in Turkey and 3-4 times the results, thank you.

 

Good luck to all you choosing FUT, you will need it! Lol if you're interested take a look at my journey you will see its a miracle thanks only to FUE and as it happens in Turkey!

 

 

You are missing the point. I am not criticising you for using your most recent surgeon.

 

You are implying above that modern day follicular unit transplantation is terrible, what you had done could not have been achieved with this method and using your experience of work performed close to 25 years ago as a basis for your opinions which quite frankly is absurd. I had the choice of what I wanted, chose FUT and was happy with the decision made in recent years.

 

I am glad you are satisfied with your most recent procedure as that is what is most important thing at the end of the day.

I'm implying a scar is a scar is a scar ... And that FUE is more refined and definitely cheaper in Turkey than USA.

Blake,

 

I suspect that techs don't extract because it could expose them to the predatorial instincts of the litigation industry in the states, which is famous!! You even suggest, or allude to the notion that some states are lax - so right there you are admitting that vulnerabilities or cracks exist. Enter litigation!

 

I said that earlier:-)

Britboy,

 

1996 - 500 micro/mini grafts - hairline and crown - Lathams Huntsville Alabama - Dr Schory

1994 - 500 micro/mini grafts - Lathams Huntsville Alabama - Dr Schory - repair to Slit grafts

1991 - 500 slit Grafts front hairline - Dr May UK aka Dr Frankenstein - Bad Operation

__________________________________________

The surgeons listed above are not world leading surgeons performing state of the art work in 2015.

edit;

So in your words and effect, in your previous post of 08.32, it appears that I now would have had to have searched and found a worlds top surgeon, with possibly outrageous prices 3 or 4 maybe 5 times more expensive than which I have paid to achieve the same results .........."Do you think you would have had the results you gained via strip if you went to a top recommended surgeon using state of the art work in 2015 having had no surgery previous?".......... the same results as I have have achieved by my clinic who have had many attackers on this forum and the clinic now banned I believe from posting along with any other patients who may want to post their results using the Surgeons or clinics name... How do you work that out? I'm sure many potential patients would love to see more posts from my clinic along of course with other surgeons and clinics.

I believe (incidentally I think I have already found a world top clinic!), to boot, my surgeon, technicians and clinic have had to make a silk purse out of a sows ear without having the luxury of a virgin head to operate on, working around the massive FUT scars, limited donor area and bad previous ops by previous FUT Surgeons my clinic has done rather a fine job....as good as if not better than so called "top recommended surgeons" I believe the clinic takes care of all patients the same way as myself, with the best results and intentions in mind.

Sigh .....

 

Britboy,

 

Brit, I hope you don't take my statements as antagonist or personal. I know you underwent poor work via strip in the "dark ages" so I understand your passion for FUE and for tech clinics that offer the procedure at a lower price. However, I don't think it's "fear mongering" or agenda-driven to say that some people will still get more "bang for their buck" from the strip procedure.

 

In my mind, it's all about informed consent. If a patient is aware of the reality of the linear scar - which can be unpredictable - and is more concerned about growth yield and session size, then I have no problem with them opting for a strip procedure. If a patient feels strip is antiquated, knows the scar will be an issue, and understands that yield is more variable, I have no problem with them opting for FUE. Really, this is all I'm trying to say.

 

I like FUE. I think it's a solid procedure for a lot of patients. However, I think a lot of people are still well-suited by strip as well. Like I said before, I don't think strip is going to disappear. From my first-hand experience, most of the patients I see are more interested in moving as much hair as possible in one sitting and have no intent on shaving their parietal/temporal scalp to a level where the scar would be an issue.

 

Is this really that outrageous or controversial? I think patients should have both procedures fully explained to them and both the doctor and the patient should pick a surgical plan that best suits the patients needs. Period.

 

Altogether, Brit, I'm very happy for you. At the end of the day, this community is about patients and you've clearly undergone an impressive transformation with FUE. I thank you for sharing your experiencing.

Blake, I appreciate yours and the communities support. Throguh this forum i found what i deem as a good first rate clinic. as you have acknowledged above, "an impressive transformation" has occurred in my case through my clinic.

I am not on a campaign or any other reason, except, I dislike unfairness, as of late regarding my clinic who have clearly come up with exceptional results, and I have spent years searching for a good clinic which now I have found.

I too need to sigh....I don't like bullies and the bashing by members, the banning of my clinic and surgeons name is nothing short of what appears to be a conspiracy against the clinic for no good reason. I am also disturbed that, you would not allow my very good friend to post his procedures from the same clinic which with respect, concerns me regarding transparency and openness for all clinic good or bad. I have previously expressed my concerns in the strongest terms privately also to you in the past regarding this. especially about the banning of my clinics name when they have been nothing but professional and capable of coming up with the results.

Do you know ay clinic with a 100% SUCCESS RATE? I doubt you do, as all surgeons and clinics fall short on occasion.

A review on my clinic with regards to contributions of thier work should take place by moderators of this forum on the grounds of "transparency"

I speak plainly and currently see an intentional campaign against my clinic by this forum which needs to be addressed.

Thanks for your support as I have already said, i would not be in such a healthy hair state had it not been for this forum. The petty destructive attacks on my clinic need to be addressed in order for the FUT v FUE saga to ebate to a more fair and reasonable discussion without having to ban post from new patients mentioning who they have been with and good, well founded clinics for spurious reasons.